The superlaser "trick"?

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Did the Death Star really destroy Alderaan?

Yes it did, only the most rabid trekkie would think otherwise!
79
87%
Yes it did.
11
12%
Probably.
0
No votes
Maybe.
1
1%
 
Total votes: 91

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Patrick Degan
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The difference 'twixt theory and nonsense

Post by Patrick Degan »

OK, I've been observing this comedy long enough before finally deciding to weigh in.
DarkStar wrote:Look at the third image of the Alderaan destruction scene as it played out in the SE. I assume this is the "glow" you refer to. However, it neither envelops the world, nor does it show anything more than a significant brightness increase in the area of the superlaser strike . . . a brightness increase which does cross the terminator from day into night, created by Alderaan's sun. But, look at where the superlaser hits. This is to be expected.
Without any mechanism for interference of the beam's trajectory, there should not be a significant increase in brightness covering the hemisphere facing the Death Star. It should instead simply travel through the planet's mass unimpeded.
And, actually, the fact that the clouds are unchanged happens to coincide with my theory. A true DET beam should have burned away those clouds instantly, as one would see with a nuclear explosion. However, as you can see, those clouds are unaffected.
In point of fact, this directly contradicts your "theory". Without a shield of any sort, visible turbulence as that area of the planet's atmosphere is burned away would be evident as the beam propagates through to the core.
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Post by DarkStar »

SirNitram wrote:TPM shield effects, of course, where the N-1 Starfighter's shields glow brilliantly.
"Glow brilliantly"? None of the shields we have seen "glow brilliantly" . . . at best, they diffract light like dirty glass, or produce a haze.

http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/multim ... mg=112&tt=

http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/multim ... img=16&tt=
Which, of course, contradicts the utter bullshit you were flinging a while back about 'splinters' being necessary for a shield to be present...
Yes, yes, I know, I'm a lying bastard for ever agreeing with Saxton or Brian Young, because I made everything up about splinters. :roll:
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/given/rb/shower1.gif
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Re: The difference 'twixt theory and nonsense

Post by DarkStar »

Patrick Degan wrote: Without any mechanism for interference of the beam's trajectory, there should not be a significant increase in brightness covering the hemisphere facing the Death Star. It should instead simply travel through the planet's mass unimpeded.
I did not say that the beam itself was being sprayed off to the sides. However, the intense energy release at the superlaser's target point would make for a hella-bright spot on the surface. The atmospheric scattering of this light would quite easily allow it to not only be carried to the horizon, but produce a brightness beyond the horizon. Think "sunset".
And, actually, the fact that the clouds are unchanged happens to coincide with my theory. A true DET beam should have burned away those clouds instantly, as one would see with a nuclear explosion. However, as you can see, those clouds are unaffected.
In point of fact, this directly contradicts your "theory". Without a shield of any sort, visible turbulence as that area of the planet's atmosphere is burned away would be evident as the beam propagates through to the core.
Evidently, you are unfamiliar with my theory. There is no reason for the atmosphere to be burning away, except with the DET theory. My theory requires a solid mass to deal with . . . that is why the starships destroyed by the superlaser of the DS2 did not create the ring effect . . . by the time it could have existed, the ship's mass had been violently redistributed.
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Oh good, he wants to play...

Post by Patrick Degan »

DarkStar wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote: Without any mechanism for interference of the beam's trajectory, there should not be a significant increase in brightness covering the hemisphere facing the Death Star. It should instead simply travel through the planet's mass unimpeded.
I did not say that the beam itself was being sprayed off to the sides. However, the intense energy release at the superlaser's target point would make for a hella-bright spot on the surface. The atmospheric scattering of this light would quite easily allow it to not only be carried to the horizon, but produce a brightness beyond the horizon. Think "sunset".
That does not explain the total lack of atmospheric disruption at the point of impact. If there is no shield to impede the progress of the beam, atmospheric disruption is unavoidable. You yourself conceeded that there was no such disruption in an earlier post along this thread.
And, actually, the fact that the clouds are unchanged happens to coincide with my theory. A true DET beam should have burned away those clouds instantly, as one would see with a nuclear explosion. However, as you can see, those clouds are unaffected.
In point of fact, this directly contradicts your "theory". Without a shield of any sort, visible turbulence as that area of the planet's atmosphere is burned away would be evident as the beam propagates through to the core.
Evidently, you are unfamiliar with my theory.[/quote]

Then you will perhaps do us the courtesy of explaining it. I have time.
There is no reason for the atmosphere to be burning away, except with the DET theory. My theory requires a solid mass to deal with . .
A planetary atmosphere is a SOLID MASS?!? Is that what you're saying? Or perhaps somehow you believe that your mechanism does not operate with respect to conservation of momentum and is phasing through gaseous matter without disrupting it?
that is why the starships destroyed by the superlaser of the DS2 did not create the ring effect . . . by the time it could have existed, the ship's mass had been violently redistributed.
In a word, ludicrous. The starships would not have the physical properties in operation which could remotely generate any sort of planar ring, such as tidal force and angular momentum: two alternative forces to account for the planar ring at Alderaan and from the two Death Stars (and before you imagine you have a point to seize upon, no I do not liken the Death Stars to Alderaan).
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. . . but only if you're honest about it.

Post by DarkStar »

Patrick Degan wrote:
DarkStar wrote: I did not say that the beam itself was being sprayed off to the sides. However, the intense energy release at the superlaser's target point would make for a hella-bright spot on the surface. The atmospheric scattering of this light would quite easily allow it to not only be carried to the horizon, but produce a brightness beyond the horizon. Think "sunset".
That does not explain the total lack of atmospheric disruption at the point of impact. If there is no shield to impede the progress of the beam, atmospheric disruption is unavoidable. You yourself conceeded that there was no such disruption in an earlier post along this thread.
Atmospheric disruption as the beam passes through the atmosphere is a necessary effect of DET theory. It is not a necessary effect of mine.
Evidently, you are unfamiliar with my theory.
Then you will perhaps do us the courtesy of explaining it. I have time.
http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWdeathstar2.html

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWalderaan.html

There is no reason for the atmosphere to be burning away, except with the DET theory. My theory requires a solid mass to deal with . .
A planetary atmosphere is a SOLID MASS?!?
I trust you are sufficiently intelligent to realize that I did not say that. If that is so, I must assume that the above foolishness on your part is an intentional effort to confuse the issues.
that is why the starships destroyed by the superlaser of the DS2 did not create the ring effect . . . by the time it could have existed, the ship's mass had been violently redistributed.
In a word, ludicrous. The starships would not have the physical properties in operation which could remotely generate any sort of planar ring, such as tidal force and angular momentum:
And, as I am sure you are aware, the forces you mention are insufficient to explain the rings in the planetary and DS examples. Why bring them up?
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I do not have that problem. You, however...

Post by Patrick Degan »

DarkStar wrote:Atmospheric disruption as the beam passes through the atmosphere is a necessary effect of DET theory. It is not a necessary effect of mine.
In other words, there is no physical interaction taking place between gaseous matter and energy beam. No, all you are doing is simply repeating your claim but offering no explanation as to its validity.
Evidently, you are unfamiliar with my theory.


Then you will perhaps do us the courtesy of explaining it. I have time.
http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWdeathstar2.html

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWalderaan.html
Funny, but I do not see any sort of explanation. Only a claim that some Mysterious Unknown Mechanism "must" be the explanation for Alderaan's destruction. This does not tell us what this MUM is or how it is supposed to operate.

There is no reason for the atmosphere to be burning away, except with the DET theory. My theory requires a solid mass to deal with . .
A planetary atmosphere is a SOLID MASS?!?
I trust you are sufficiently intelligent to realize that I did not say that. If that is so, I must assume that the above foolishness on your part is an intentional effort to confuse the issues.[/quote]

No, it is a challenge to your evident assertion that somehow, there is no physical interaction between gaseous matter and energy beam, which you still haven't explained.
The starships would not have the physical properties in operation which could remotely generate any sort of planar ring, such as tidal force and angular momentum:
And, as I am sure you are aware, the forces you mention are insufficient to explain the rings in the planetary and DS examples. Why bring them up?[/quote]

How so? Do enlighten us.
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Post by LMSx »

"Luke had seen the shattered remnants of Alderaan and knew that for those in the incredible battle station that the entire moon would present simply another abstract problem in mass-energy conversion"
This is going to sound a little out there, but is it possible that the sentence was referring to the reactor core turning the hypermatter or whatnot into energy to blow up the moon? Since the Death Star could only regenerate energy after a days time for the Superlaser, the "abstract problem", in this case, would be seeing how little energy as possible could be used to blow up the moon. I'm sure that the engineers ran simulations to see how much energy would be expended to blow up a planet sized object, so there would be no abstract problem for Alderaan.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

The DS could clearly fire at least twice in less than two days, and perhaps substantially less. Remember Vader talking about how that day would be long remembered. "It has seen the end of Kenobi, it will soon see the end of the Rebellion."
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Requisite energy

Post by Patrick Degan »

This is going to sound a little out there, but is it possible that the sentence was referring to the reactor core turning the hypermatter or whatnot into energy to blow up the moon? Since the Death Star could only regenerate energy after a days time for the Superlaser, the "abstract problem", in this case, would be seeing how little energy as possible could be used to blow up the moon. I'm sure that the engineers ran simulations to see how much energy would be expended to blow up a planet sized object, so there would be no abstract problem for Alderaan.
If the Death Star superlaser applied only the minimum amount of energy required to blow the planet apart, we would have seen the debris field of Alderaan expanding at only escape velocity, 11km/sec. At that rate, it would have taken a full ten minutes for the debris field to expand to twice the planetary diametre. Instead, the mass of the planet was violently blasted apart, impelling its debris at thousands of kilometres per second. This is what gives credence to the energy figures for the superlaser, despite whatever Mr. Dark Star believes.

The sentence in question merely refers to the mental process by which you would calculate how powerful the destructive force applied by the Death Star would be out of simple curiosity. As far as the engineers aboard the battlestation were concerned, however, there was nothing to figure out.
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Post by LMSx »

Hrm. Okay. I didn't mean minimum force specifically as the absolute minimum, but I see that point.
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Post by Cal Wright »

LMSx wrote:
"Luke had seen the shattered remnants of Alderaan and knew that for those in the incredible battle station that the entire moon would present simply another abstract problem in mass-energy conversion"
This is going to sound a little out there, but is it possible that the sentence was referring to the reactor core turning the hypermatter or whatnot into energy to blow up the moon? Since the Death Star could only regenerate energy after a days time for the Superlaser, the "abstract problem", in this case, would be seeing how little energy as possible could be used to blow up the moon. I'm sure that the engineers ran simulations to see how much energy would be expended to blow up a planet sized object, so there would be no abstract problem for Alderaan.
That's what I think of it. Considering it only takes a ship like the Falcon to make the trip in rougly six hours. then another trip to Yavin. So within a twelve hour period the superlaser could have been used twice. Also, they might have used a lower power setting, but the uncompleted DS II fired twice in the middle of a thirty minute battle.

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Post by LMSx »

Now that I think of it, there's the possibility that the total amount of power expended on Alderaan was the "safe amount", so strong that no planetary shield could stop it. If it was the minimum force, then the planetary shield might have had the ability to stop it.

Anyways, the quote can be applied for both theories. If the total amount of power is too much, then the Death Star will have expended an excess amount of power, AND have high-velocity parts of the moon hitting it. Remember, the DS just crossed Yavin's horizon when it started to fire, so it was much closer to the target then with Alderaan.
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Post by DarkStar »

Patrick Degan wrote:
DarkStar wrote:Atmospheric disruption as the beam passes through the atmosphere is a necessary effect of DET theory. It is not a necessary effect of mine.
In other words, there is no physical interaction taking place between gaseous matter and energy beam. No, all you are doing is simply repeating your claim but offering no explanation as to its validity.
No, because your "other words" bear no resemblance to mine. You do this a lot.
Evidently, you are unfamiliar with my theory.


Then you will perhaps do us the courtesy of explaining it. I have time.
http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWdeathstar2.html

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWalderaan.html
Funny, but I do not see any sort of explanation.
Funnier still, if you believe that, is the fact that you then made claims about it.
Only a claim that some Mysterious Unknown Mechanism "must" be the explanation for Alderaan's destruction. This does not tell us what this MUM is or how it is supposed to operate.
The theory is developed from observation and known fact. This, I realize, is contrary to the Warsie preference that we simply leap to the conclusion that it is DET. However, should you try to implement such a thinking policy, you'll find that things will run more smoothly.

Now, if you feel that I have provided an insufficient theory because the explanation of the finer points of the mechanism's underlying physics is missing, I'm afraid the problem is yours, and not mine. We could speculate back and forth until the end of time and never come up with a perfect solution, because the canon is silent on the issue. What we must do is go with the observations and what they have to say . . . where they are silent, so must we be silent.

Warsies such as yourself, on the other hand, seem to think that canon silence gives one the liberty to go screaming one's fool head off about DET this and DET that, when there is no evidence whatsoever for DET, and plenty of counterevidence.

Sorry, kid. The game is up.
The starships would not have the physical properties in operation which could remotely generate any sort of planar ring, such as tidal force and angular momentum:
And, as I am sure you are aware, the forces you mention are insufficient to explain the rings in the planetary and DS examples. Why bring them up?
How so? Do enlighten us.
:shock:

You require an explanation as to why a planet's once-per-24-hours-or-so-rotation is insufficient to explain rings flying away at significant fractions of lightspeed? You're worse off than I thought.
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A funny remark coming from such a tiny mind as your own, DS

Post by Patrick Degan »

Hey, you want to start playing the Flame Game, I'm up for it for as long as you are.
DarkStar wrote:Atmospheric disruption as the beam passes through the atmosphere is a necessary effect of DET theory. It is not a necessary effect of mine.
In other words, there is no physical interaction taking place between gaseous matter and energy beam. No, all you are doing is simply repeating your claim but offering no explanation as to its validity.
No, because your "other words" bear no resemblance to mine. You do this a lot.
No, I leave your words, or lack thereof, to determine the matter. You made a claim that your theory explains the effects observed against Alderaan, yet do not detail the theory in any way, shape, or form. Try actually addressing the objection instead of simply denying it.
Funny, but I do not see any sort of explanation.
Funnier still, if you believe that, is the fact that you then made claims about it.
I read it, and your so-called theory explains nothing. You can't make claims regarding something that doesn't exist.
Only a claim that some Mysterious Unknown Mechanism "must" be the explanation for Alderaan's destruction. This does not tell us what this MUM is or how it is supposed to operate.
The theory is developed from observation and known fact. This, I realize, is contrary to the Warsie preference that we simply leap to the conclusion that it is DET. However, should you try to implement such a thinking policy, you'll find that things will run more smoothly.
You should take your own advice. What we see is a planet which is violently exploded after being hit with an energy beam. Direct energy transfer is the simplest explanation for this phenomenon. It requires no recourse to exotic Mysterious Unknown Mechanisms which you invoke but either fail or refuse to detail.
Now, if you feel that I have provided an insufficient theory because the explanation of the finer points of the mechanism's underlying physics is missing, I'm afraid the problem is yours, and not mine.
Wrong. If you're going to offer up an alternative explanation for a phenomenon, it is not enough to merely invoke it and claim that it explains everything. That is using the premise of the argument as the proof of the argument.
We could speculate back and forth until the end of time and never come up with a perfect solution, because the canon is silent on the issue.
Immaterial. If you're going to offer a theory to explain something, you first have to justify just why the theory wins over competing theories on its own merits, not simply because you disagree with the other theory and deny its validity.
What we must do is go with the observations and what they have to say . . . where they are silent, so must we be silent.
If we follow that rule, then your theory has zero support. Since absolutely nothing in the canon or official material even remotely suggests anything other than DET as the mechanism for the superlaser.
Warsies such as yourself, on the other hand, seem to think that canon silence gives one the liberty to go screaming one's fool head off about DET this and DET that, when there is no evidence whatsoever for DET, and plenty of counterevidence.
Ah, a classic example of "projection". Substitute "screaming one's fool head off about MUM this and MUM that" and we've summarised your entire argument in a nutshell. Especially since there is zero evidence for your Mysterious Unknown Mechanism, but excellent visual evidence for Direct Energy Transfer.
Sorry, kid. The game is up.
Yes. Your own.
And, as I am sure you are aware, the forces you mention are insufficient to explain the rings in the planetary and DS examples. Why bring them up?
How so? Do enlighten us.
You require an explanation as to why a planet's once-per-24-hours-or-so-rotation is insufficient to explain rings flying away at significant fractions of lightspeed? You're worse off than I thought.
I'm not responsible for your fantasies, I'm afraid. Kindly explain to us why Conservation of Angular Momentum does not apply when Alderaan is exploded.
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Post by SPOOFE »

"Glow brilliantly"? None of the shields we have seen "glow brilliantly" . . . at best, they diffract light like dirty glass, or produce a haze.
Yes, shields that are not actively repelling energy. Watch the movies again and watch what happens when a shield is struck by an energy weapon... it glows. Brilliantly.
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Post by DarkStar »

Patrick Degan wrote:Hey, you want to start playing the Flame Game, I'm up for it for as long as you are.
:lol: You're trying to say I have flamed you? Puh-leeze. :lol:
In other words, there is no physical interaction taking place between gaseous matter and energy beam. No, all you are doing is simply repeating your claim but offering no explanation as to its validity.
No, because your "other words" bear no resemblance to mine. You do this a lot.
No, I leave your words, or lack thereof, to determine the matter. You made a claim that your theory explains the effects observed against Alderaan, yet do not detail the theory in any way, shape, or form. Try actually addressing the objection instead of simply denying it.
You have everything I have said, in this thread and on the site. I have explained my position fully, and at no point has any foolish notion such as your "there is no physical interaction taking place between gaseous matter and energy beam" BS been a part, implicitly or explicitly, of my theory.

Stop the straw men.
The theory is developed from observation and known fact. This, I realize, is contrary to the Warsie preference that we simply leap to the conclusion that it is DET. However, should you try to implement such a thinking policy, you'll find that things will run more smoothly.
You should take your own advice. What we see is a planet which is violently exploded after being hit with an energy beam. Direct energy transfer is the simplest explanation for this phenomenon.
It is simplest, but it is not an explanation. DET utterly fails to address the nature of the destruction, or the various other effects that are a part of it.
It requires no recourse to exotic Mysterious Unknown Mechanisms which you invoke but either fail or refuse to detail.
A theory can only be as detailed as the evidence allows. Were I to go in-depth with a description of the mechanism, you would no doubt attack my conjectures. Similarly, by taking the safest course and not going into detail, I have invited attack on those grounds. If you'd listen first instead of never, you might get somewhere.
Now, if you feel that I have provided an insufficient theory because the explanation of the finer points of the mechanism's underlying physics is missing, I'm afraid the problem is yours, and not mine.
Wrong. If you're going to offer up an alternative explanation for a phenomenon, it is not enough to merely invoke it and claim that it explains everything. That is using the premise of the argument as the proof of the argument.
It is no such thing. I have made observations, crafted a hypothesis, and observed the hypothesis survive and thrive in the light of new evidence (ship-killer shots from the DS2, the off-center explosion of the DS2, et cetera).

I don't have to know what it is to know what it does. Early Darwinians knew very little about the nuts and bolts of how heredity worked and how the environment shaped life . . . but, according to your argument, the fact that Darwin didn't explain DNA in "Origin of Species" makes evolution the BS idea of the age.

Well, that's a stupid argument, and I won't support it.
We could speculate back and forth until the end of time and never come up with a perfect solution, because the canon is silent on the issue.
Immaterial. If you're going to offer a theory to explain something, you first have to justify just why the theory wins over competing theories on its own merits
As has been done, repeatedly.
What we must do is go with the observations and what they have to say . . . where they are silent, so must we be silent.
If we follow that rule, then your theory has zero support. Since absolutely nothing in the canon or official material even remotely suggests anything other than DET as the mechanism for the superlaser.
. . . so long as you ignore what we see in the films, and are told in the novels, et cetera. :roll:
Especially since there is zero evidence for your Mysterious Unknown Mechanism, but excellent visual evidence for Direct Energy Transfer.
Oh good grief. There is no visual evidence for DET. The only thing which allows for DET is if you take the most simplistic approach possible, something like "Duh, energy beam make planet go kaboom". On the other hand, if you actually watch the film, and pay attention to those annoying details like rings, bands, clouds, et cetera, you might just end up realizing the plain and simple fact that pure DET didn't happen.
You require an explanation as to why a planet's once-per-24-hours-or-so-rotation is insufficient to explain rings flying away at significant fractions of lightspeed? You're worse off than I thought.
I'm not responsible for your fantasies, I'm afraid. Kindly explain to us why Conservation of Angular Momentum does not apply when Alderaan is exploded.
Well, gee . . . you are worse off than I thought. Not only do you not realize the numbers involved, but you also want to claim that CAM is not conserved, or (even worse) that I don't think so. :roll:

Rotational energy of Earth:
2.1e29 J

KE of one millionth of Earth's mass moving at one-third lightspeed (just to get a conservative estimate of the sort of energy input you're going to need, if you want to assume that the rings are mass being carried away from the event . . . forgetting, for the moment, the second ring or the rapid (i.e. instantaneous) acceleration):
2.5e28J

Now, if the superlaser had magically halted Alderaan's spin, and magically converted around a thousandth of that energy into acceleration of a millionth of the planet's mass, you might have something. However, that's a little outside the parameters of a DET device, wouldn't you say? :roll:
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Post by DarkStar »

SPOOFE wrote:
"Glow brilliantly"? None of the shields we have seen "glow brilliantly" . . . at best, they diffract light like dirty glass, or produce a haze.
Yes, shields that are not actively repelling energy. Watch the movies again and watch what happens when a shield is struck by an energy weapon... it glows. Brilliantly.
I think you're confusing Star Trek and Star Wars. At no point have we seen a shield glow brilliantly when struck by an energy weapon in Star Wars. If you have some particular example in mind, besides the incorrect ones already given, I'd be happy to take a look . . . but at the moment, I'm at a loss as to where you're getting this from.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

DarkStar wrote:You're trying to say I have flamed you? Puh-leeze.
The insults started flowing early from your end. Admittedly, they're rather amateurish.
You have everything I have said, in this thread and on the site. I have explained my position fully, and at no point has any foolish notion such as your "there is no physical interaction taking place between gaseous matter and energy beam" BS been a part, implicitly or explicitly, of my theory.

Stop the straw men.
You failed or refused to explain the lack of atmospheric turbulence where the beam would have propagated through to the surface if there is no planetary shield to block it. You put forth the claim that your MUM theory explains this. Then you fail to explain it. No matter what mechanism you wish to invoke to explain the superlaser, there must be a physical interaction between the beam's energy field and the atmosphere of the planet. That is no strawman. It is a gaping great hole in your case.
It is simplest, but it is not an explanation. DET utterly fails to address the nature of the destruction, or the various other effects that are a part of it.
Beam strikes planet. Planet goes BOOM! Planetary matter is ejected violently outward at several tens of thousands of kilometres per second, which conforms to DET.
It requires no recourse to exotic Mysterious Unknown Mechanisms which you invoke but either fail or refuse to detail.

A theory can only be as detailed as the evidence allows. Were I to go in-depth with a description of the mechanism, you would no doubt attack my conjectures. Similarly, by taking the safest course and not going into detail, I have invited attack on those grounds. If you'd listen first instead of never, you might get somewhere.
If your conjectures are unsupported —or unsupportable— they are naturally subject to attack. I'm sorry if that doesn't suit you. I'm listening hard, but so far I haven't heard anything satisfactory which supports your conjecture, and your simply saying "it is because it is" over and over and over again does not make your case any stronger.
I have made observations, crafted a hypothesis, and observed the hypothesis survive and thrive in the light of new evidence (ship-killer shots from the DS2, the off-center explosion of the DS2, et cetera).
Once again, I am not responsible for your fantasies.
I don't have to know what it is to know what it does.
An interesting wrinkle on the Appeal to Ignorance argument.
Early Darwinians knew very little about the nuts and bolts of how heredity worked and how the environment shaped life . . . but, according to your argument, the fact that Darwin didn't explain DNA in "Origin of Species" makes evolution the BS idea of the age.
Now who's putting up strawmen? Darwinians certainly could demonstrate the process of more advanced forms of life developing from the earliest stages and how enviroment shaped evolutionary choices through selection. The fossil record gave us the clear evidence for evolutionary development.
Well, that's a stupid argument, and I won't support it.
No, you'll only spout it while putting up your own strawmen.
If you're going to offer a theory to explain something, you first have to justify just why the theory wins over competing theories on its own merits

As has been done, repeatedly.
Right, by simply repeating "it is because it is because it is".
What we must do is go with the observations and what they have to say . . . where they are silent, so must we be silent.

If we follow that rule, then your theory has zero support. Since absolutely nothing in the canon or official material even remotely suggests anything other than DET as the mechanism for the superlaser.

. . . so long as you ignore what we see in the films, and are told in the novels, et cetera.
None of which supports your MUM, no matter how much you say over and over and over and over that it does.
There is no visual evidence for DET.
Other than Alderaan violently exploding after the superlaser strikes the planet, that is.
The only thing which allows for DET is if you take the most simplistic approach possible
Such as watching the movie and seeing what's up on the screen.
On the other hand, if you actually watch the film, and pay attention to those annoying details like rings, bands, clouds, et cetera, you might just end up realizing the plain and simple fact that pure DET didn't happen.
Right. The beam makes contact with the periphery of the atmosphere but does not affect it, somehow cascades into an umbrella enveloping the planet which then somehow sinks into the mass of the planet or induces some secondary nuclear reaction in non-fissionable or non-fusionable matter, and then causes Alderaan to violently explode. This to you is a simpler and more rational theory than Direct Energy Transfer?
Not only do you not realize the numbers involved, but you also want to claim that CAM is not conserved, or (even worse) that I don't think so.
Yet another strawman. I am making no such argument. You however have been ducking the question.
Now, if the superlaser had magically halted Alderaan's spin, and magically converted around a thousandth of that energy into acceleration of a millionth of the planet's mass, you might have something. However, that's a little outside the parameters of a DET device, wouldn't you say?
It is precisely because of Conservation of Angular Momentum that the inertial motion of Alderaan's spin remains in force even as the planet is exploding. Tangental geometry dictates that matter imparted along a given vector will continue along that vector. The vapourised material ejected from the equatorial region of the planet would propagate outward along the planet's rotational plane, given additional momentum by the force of Alderaan's disruption. There is no magic involved, and certainly no necessity to invoke MUMs. The rings of material tossed off by supernovae (see SN1987A, to name but one example) certainly do not require MUMs as the mechanics of their propagation, and are very much governed by Conservation of Angular Momentum.

By contrast, all you offer up is a Mysterious Unknown Force which requires so many variables to make it work that it is ludicrous on its face given that Direct Energy Transfer collapsing a planetary shield and then violently blasting that planet apart is perfectly plausible and with far fewer variables required to support it.
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SirNitram
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Post by SirNitram »

DarkStar wrote:
SPOOFE wrote:
"Glow brilliantly"? None of the shields we have seen "glow brilliantly" . . . at best, they diffract light like dirty glass, or produce a haze.
Yes, shields that are not actively repelling energy. Watch the movies again and watch what happens when a shield is struck by an energy weapon... it glows. Brilliantly.
I think you're confusing Star Trek and Star Wars. At no point have we seen a shield glow brilliantly when struck by an energy weapon in Star Wars. If you have some particular example in mind, besides the incorrect ones already given, I'd be happy to take a look . . . but at the moment, I'm at a loss as to where you're getting this from.
Watching the movies. The same place we get the Hyperdrive speeds in the millions of c range, the fact the Empire covers a minimum of one galaxy and possibly two satellite ones, and the Death Star's firepower of 1e38J. Any reasonable debator would come to these conclusions, as has been demonstrated, repeatedly, by other people reaching these conclusions. You, of course, are neither reasonable nor very intelligent, so we understand you don't get it.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

DarkStar, I have a couple of things to say.

1. You haven't really proven your argument at all. When Patrick asked you to provide reasons why your theory is better than others, you fell back and said, "This has been done, many times." Thing is, I've been through this thread, and I haven't really seen any evidence that you brought up to support your theory very well. In fact, you have essentially brought up no evidence other than the fact that you don't like DET.

2. Snigger all you want, it is clear that you flamed Patrick first, albeit not very severely.

3. Your attempt to beat Patrick with semantics was invalid. His translation of your words was reasonable. You do that a lot.
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Post by Dooey Jo »

Hey! I noticed a thing here. DarkStar made reference to his own site and his own pictures. Isn't there some kind of rule that says; you shouldn't make reference to your own material, because you might have altered it?
Has anyone else seen that the Alderaan shield is gone in the Special Edition? Until someone else has taken a picture of it, it can't valid, can it?
This whole thing is made up by DarkStar. I say, he manipulated the images to make it look like the shield is gone!
And if they aren't manipulated, well you shouldn't make references to your own material anyway, since your speculations isn't canon. They aren't even official.
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Post by LMSx »

He has book and movie references which he derives his theories from.

Do you have anything to base the idea that he edited the images, besides speculation?
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Post by Master of Ossus »

LMSx wrote:He has book and movie references which he derives his theories from.

Do you have anything to base the idea that he edited the images, besides speculation?
Wrong. More often then not, he derives his theories and then comes up with evidence to support them.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Why do Darkstar featuring threads always end up debating Darkstar himself and not the issue.

Moo: You cant know that for a fact.

Dooey Jo: A lot of Vs Debaters use screen caps including Wong I dont see you accusing him of altering evidence.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

You're right, Darkling. It is purely speculation based on reading several of his threads and debating against him on a few occasions. Actually, he seems to believe his own ideas pretty well, for some reason.
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