StarDestroyer.Net BBS

oooh fuck, really? Hah. my map effort was really really wrong then

You and Simon should talk about what form your continent is, since Siege doesn't seem to mind much and Simon didn't like the one I generated.

Room for one more? I was really excited about SDNW5, and sad when it ended; I'd love to give one of these another go.

Give us a nation concept, let's see what you've got.

madd0ct0r wrote:oooh fuck, really? Hah. my map effort was really really wrong then

Steve wrote:You and Simon should talk about what form your continent is, since Siege doesn't seem to mind much and Simon didn't like the one I generated.

My issue is that I want my end of the continent to have roughly the same shape I outlined in my crude angular map-parody-thing. I make no demands about anyone else's country.

I am way too busy to figure out a new random map generator, but may be able to accomplish something of that order over the weekend.

I also thought that the continent as presented in the map looked a bit too much like a funnel cake for comfort.

Steve wrote:You and Simon should talk about what form your continent is, since Siege doesn't seem to mind much and Simon didn't like the one I generated.

I'm quite happy with the map madd0ct0r drew up. Throw a few more crags and bays on the coasts, maybe split 'Placeholder' into a larger (2/3rds) and smaller state (1/3rd) and it's fine as far as I'm concerned. Well we'd have to make up names and such for those placeholders, but in terms of the outline of the continent that's all I got.

Steve wrote:Give us a nation concept, let's see what you've got.

I was originally thinking of a loose collection city states, the Greece to Om's Persia, if you like, but on second thought I don't think I could do justice to the cast of characters I'd need for that many individual governments and societies. The new plan is to shamelessly crib from Greek history and extrapolate forward. Basically, a less imperialistic Alexander the Great doesn't die young and sets up a stable single government, with wartime compromises leaving enough regional differences for intricate political plotting.

The Apelian city states grew up around a shared language and culture, along the borders of the Omnian Empire. Relatively wealthy, at least in antiquity, they were able to use advantageous terrain to hold off the periodic Omnian invasion attempts, uniting in the face of outside attack but otherwise occupied themselves with internal plots and struggles. After the last round of Omnian wars (late medieval-early Renaissance era, maybe?) the coalitions that had formed between the city states started eyeing each other hungrily, and there was a massively destructive polysided civil war that lasted a generation, this world's equivalent of the Thirty Years War. When the other regional powers started nibbling at the edges of the region, enough of the remaining ones threw in behind a Philip of Macedon-type to stop the bleeding. He set up a (weak) central government and took back some of the lost territory before being murdered. His son, the Alexander in this story, was vastly more capable even than his father and used his military talents to create a strong state that has remained intact up to the present.

That's the very rough outline, anyway.

Maybe run them along the north coast of our continent in Placeholderland? San Dorado might in its ancient history have some degree of kinship with those city-states, though of course Siege would have to agree to that. It'd certainly be logical for ancient paleohistorical San Dorado to be the northernmost outpost of some culture of (semi-)thalassocratic city-states, and one that ultimately went its own way and established its own power base. Sort of like how Carthage was with regard to the larger Phoenician civilization.

Yep, north coast of placeholderia was what I was thinking would be the most optimal place as well.

I like the concept, as well as the idea of some kind of kinship, although I'd put it more like the rivalry between Genoa and Venice in the Renaissance. Say, would you be interested in having San Dorado, seeing a way to get rid of some longtime rivals and make some money in the meantime, covertly instigating that civil war you were talking about? Let's say by goading on some parties, selling arms to the others, and so forth?

I said I was going to put together a map of the Fuso/Ostrheinland archipelago on my own, but... I actually like Steve's interim solution of mashing Japan and the Philippines together. I think I can work from that.

Siege wrote:Yep, north coast of placeholderia was what I was thinking would be the most optimal place as well.

I like the concept, as well as the idea of some kind of kinship, although I'd put it more like the rivalry between Genoa and Venice in the Renaissance.

What, you don't think kinship and rivalry go hand in hand? The Italian city-states feuded incessantly, the Greeks likewise...

Say, would you be interested in having San Dorado, seeing a way to get rid of some longtime rivals and make some money in the meantime, covertly instigating that civil war you were talking about? Let's say by goading on some parties, selling arms to the others, and so forth?

Er, the Umerian Civil War?

Well, arguably that was the technocrats methodically exterminating the warlords, with the previous period of warlordism somehow NOT being identified as a civil war by historians. I doubt San Dorado would have fomented that on purpose.

Now, the warlordism itself and the collapse of the Republic... I'd rather stick with "it would damn well have happened whether San Dorado was involved or not, but it probably happened all the faster and more messily for their involvement."

Siege wrote:Yep, north coast of placeholderia was what I was thinking would be the most optimal place as well.

I like the concept, as well as the idea of some kind of kinship, although I'd put it more like the rivalry between Genoa and Venice in the Renaissance. Say, would you be interested in having San Dorado, seeing a way to get rid of some longtime rivals and make some money in the meantime, covertly instigating that civil war you were talking about? Let's say by goading on some parties, selling arms to the others, and so forth?

Sounds wonderful. Well, actually it sounds like a horrible, horrible thing to do to people in the name of profit, but as I understand that's basically what San Dorado stands for, yes? And the Apelians can be entertainingly obsessed with uncovering San Dorado-backed plots, because, hey, it's not paranoia if they really are out to get you...

I really hate the Rheinland continent map and how some people chose to ignore what has been posted in map making efforts so far, especially if somebody has already promised he will try it. Jesus, why the fuck do I even try?

Do we maybe want to consolidate map ideas? I'm sure lots of the issues are just things getting lost in the thread.

Expanding from what Steve put for Fuso and Ostrheinland, here's a high-res map of the entire archipelago, courtesy of me dicking around in GIMP. I can always go back and change things if there are any objections.

Thanas? I left your part of it intact, I only slipped flipped Russia in for Zook and Fin's side since Fin mentioned using an inverted Russia?

Fin also said he was open to Thanas trying his hand at drawing a map. Which considering the lack of word to the contrary Thanas has presumably been working on.

Simon_Jester wrote:Er, the Umerian Civil War?

In that particular instance I was talking about Esquire's nation. But it's pretty much modus operandi; wherever there's chaos, disunity or war there's merchants of death making it worse. Or better, if you're thinking from a purely pecuniary perspective. Or the perspective of the winner. See, it's just a matter of perspective!

Esquire wrote:And the Apelians can be entertainingly obsessed with uncovering San Dorado-backed plots, because, hey, it's not paranoia if they really are out to get you...

We can assure you it's nothing personal, just business! Well in your case maybe it was also slightly personal. Breaking one's longtime rivals feels good, see. It's a real high, especially if you make a killing in the process. Figuratively speaking of course. Mostly.

The San Doradans also sound like the sort of people who could be hired to help kill the old Klavostani royal family, for the right price. Even the babies.

ESPECIALLY the babies.

"So this is Klavo- sorry, Komradistan eh? The big K-S. Home of turbans and lamb chop hamburgers. Nice to meet you, Mr. Secretary. If you don't mind I'll not introduce myself, all you really need to know is I represent your flatline team of choice. So, let's make this quick. How do you want your killing done? Quiet? Messy? Public?"

Yeah, that should be no problem. It's not a part of the official brochure but there's plenty discrete removal specialists in San Dorado to get your dirty jobs done.

Siege wrote:Fin also said he was open to Thanas trying his hand at drawing a map. Which considering the lack of word to the contrary Thanas has presumably been working on.

Ah. I missed that. Well, Fin and Zook and Kartr can easily decide whether they prefer what I put in or what Thanas does, I have no objection.

I do have a request, though; Thanas, can you make a political version of your map?

Siege wrote:Yeah, that should be no problem. It's not a part of the official brochure but there's plenty discrete removal specialists in San Dorado to get your dirty jobs done.

Discrete, discreet, or both? Discreet means the assassination is done quietly; discrete means lack of collateral damage and no messy "only mostly deads." Alternatively, discrete means the assassins come in units of one, clearly separated in time or space.

You can probably get both.

Actually, the thought of analog assassins is kind of terrifying.

Steve wrote:

Siege wrote:Fin also said he was open to Thanas trying his hand at drawing a map. Which considering the lack of word to the contrary Thanas has presumably been working on.

Ah. I missed that. Well, Fin and Zook and Kartr can easily decide whether they prefer what I put in or what Thanas does, I have no objection.

I don't really mind you doing it, what I would mind however is putting in the effort and then having it not being chosen. So I would prefer it if the two would decide who they want to do it and then give that person details what they really want.

I do have a request, though; Thanas, can you make a political version of your map?

Due to the suckiness of Paint it would take me about three - four hours to fill in everything with one colour each. I have however included borders in my map.

This is a simplified version imposed on yours, but do note that the exact details are not really right so the borders are not exactly correct to the mile. I will always consider my version to be the correct, authoritative one and this nothing more than a broad sketch.


light green is Kangaria
Purple is OCSR
brown are the republics of Katr_Kana
Yellow is Granadia

Red is Rheinland

KlavoHunter wrote:

Steve wrote:Klavo, I was pondering whether to have a buffer state between our countries, it'd be a not-very-powerful NPC broken off from Klavostan when it had its Communist revolution post-WWII and the exiled anti-Communists gathered away from the heartland of the country, in a place under protection from the post-war Cascadian occupation. We can talk on it.

It would be an odd duck of a buffer country, if it'd be a mix between the remnants of the old Royalist army and unassimilated natives. Two groups who traditionally Did Not Get Along - IMO the communists are doing a better job with the descendents of the natives than the the monarchy ever did.

Sounds like a complete powderkeg, with next to no economy, propped up by Cascadian aid to maintain their military: Enough to keep its own people from shooting one another on a daily basis, and enough to keep the communists busy for a couple days so the Cascadians can mobilize for a counterattack.

Agent Sorchus wrote:Steve I would like to place three of my nations ( the three with the dictatorship based on Yugoslavia) on your proto-Americas, but in none of the maps have I seen this added. Maybe that would work as a buffer zone between you and Klavo? Rather than have an NPC.

How many countries can you honestly be expected to run?

How many npcs can this game support? Honestly, not as many as people think. Right now I've seen calls to put npc's all up and down the American spine, to separate various borders that might have conflict and to have the Omnian "super" state. At least all but the most boring port city state Idea of mine (which I am formally retracting cause of too many similar states having pop-d up already, and on retrospect I don't have any good story's for it) I have story ideas already waiting to be written.

I would love to have a place in the Americas, but I have already been pushed out of the established area in favor of filling in the Spine of "North America" with NPC's. No good reason to have npc's there except that Steve wants it.

I have major issues with the idea that rather then having conflicting borders we put down buffering NPC's. Thanas said it better though.

Thanas wrote: Besides Steve, I don't get why you have all kind of NPC buffer states popping up but want to push other players towards directly bordering each other.

Also I hate Omnia, mostly cause it is similar to the npc super state we all nixed back at the beginning. It takes up space and is a non-entity on a already sparsely populated (by us "players") continent. Actually that is my main concern with any NPC: the are going to be like having an AFK player state, without ever having coherent interactions with all the rest of the world.

Steve wrote:From the way you describe them, putting them between me and Klavo won't work given background and such, it's more logical if they're on the other side of Klavostan in "South America", with the Klavostani sultanate having traditionally been a buffer state from Granadian and others attacking them from the north - the coasts could've once been mostly imperial outposts of Britonia and Granadia and such, but decolonization saw the local nations recover them.

Let me state this as nicely as I can. FUCK BACKSTORY.

It has no bearing on a world we are all creating in the here and now, it can be adjusted & edited, but ultimately it is only relevant in so far as it establishes things for current events. You called for a broken off section of Klavostan with a barely functional government, I have a proposed series of nations that have broken up over their non-functionality. My concept works in the area (and can be adjusted to fit better if need be), and as a bonus actually has a player ready to write about it rather then a bland NPC that is essentially stealing my idea from me.

IF I actually thought you guys would do the npc state and it's barely functional government justice (which I don't) I might as well retire my idea rather then have duplicates. But at that point I'm almost out of little state concepts, and frankly while my Patron Democracy is an interesting idea I don't think I have the right sort of focus to write about only one thing with one gimmick for long so I might as well retire utterly.

Actually all this stupid map talk reminds me that we never had anyone judge peoples concepts, unless this already happened off forum in which case I'm probably done with this BS.

That rant aside I want to place the patron democracy right next to the south western coast of the OCSR as a Sicily sized island or Cyprus. Works well as a remainder of the Old Daedalan empire and it's principals. Maybe less religious but still nominally Christians.

Simon_Jester wrote:Discrete, discreet, or both?

I suppose both, if you're contracting foreign hitmen to clean up your mess you probably want it done both quietly and accurately. If you don't though then I'm sure there's people to be found in San Dorado who'll do it messily and indiscriminately. They might even be cheaper, but then you'll be doing business with people who like that sort of thing, instead of professionals.

Sorchus wrote:How many npcs can this game support? Honestly, not as many as people think.

As a veteran of several of these games I can safely say I have a pretty good idea how many NPCs the game can support. It's about 50/50 player-to-NPC. More than that and you'll have places on the map where nothing happens; less than that and (guess what) you'll have places on the map where nothing happens.

You're completely wrong on the "non-entity" comment regarding NPC states: having neutral third-party grounds to set conflicts in opens the game up and invites multiple players to participate. Locking everyone in their own territory where players will be naturally hesitant to blow shit up or engage in crazy shenanigans only diminishes the game. In SDNW #1 the most interesting place was Terra Libertia, an NPC; in #2 conflicts developed over Central Frequesue, in the Border States and on Velaria, all NPCs; in #4 shenanigans happened in Wild Space, in the Outlands and in the MEH, all NPCs at the time.

"Aha!" you might say. "But Siege! You did not mention #3!" Yeah, because that one didn't have NPCs. Guess what happened to it? It died ignominiously.

'When Alexander saw the breadth of his domain he wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer.' That's why we need NPCs: to have a place where people can interact without immediately putting their capitals or territories at immediate risk of being blown up, contaminated, captured or revolutionized. To have something at stake without putting everything at stake.

Also, on a lesser note, I strongly suggest you alter the way you communicate. You've barely been active in this thread and now, suddenly, you explode. 'I hate Omnia', 'FUCK BACKSTORY', 'stupid map', 'done with this BS'; these things do not make you look like a reasonable, balanced or for that matter pleasant person to interact with. Threatening to retire from the game before we even start doesn't mean anything, so please, just stop. If you have objections against anything anyone's come up with then describe them in a moderately levelheaded fashion just like everybody else here has managed to do so far. Then we can talk about your concerns like grownups. Or don't, and then we can start yelling at each other; the choice is up to you.