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Steve wrote:It's not that he's doing the nuking that's irritating. I mean, if this were some world on the Shepistani fringe being overrun I'd probably not bat an eye. It's the fact that he's firing on civilian targets while operating under my command, so now I have to reflect IC repercussions. Because we don't really approve of dropping any nuclear ordnance in those conditions.

The railguns were fired at Bragga's pursuers also.

Edit: Okay, I take that back. I'm pissed again. Why in the hell would remaining Pendletonian missile sites open themselves up to counter-attack to take out a single dropship when the main invasion hasn't yet commenced?! More than that, I yet again remind you by that this time we'd already be preparing for tactical strikes to deal with missile sites, and your people would know this. This is all just an excuse to recycle the same post again.

I intended for the 7,000 SAMs opening up at the exact same time PeZook had the SAMs opening up on that Centrality cloaked destroyer. Basically, while elsewhere the SAMs were shooting at Force Lord's destroyer, other SAMs were also shooting at the droship. Bad timing.

But, man, holy crap. 7000 SAMs!

(I specifically had Bishop/Shroomshop say "7,000!" since that was the number of SAMs PeZook specified on his post)

Steve wrote:
He's talking about the second series of nukings in response to SAM launches, to protect the DropShip carrying the Bragulans. When Shep unleashed multiple missiles which, despite Coalition efforts to destroy the barrage, caused 442 megatons of nuclear ordnance to be detonated throughout one of the regions of Pendleton. In a concession to being under Anglian command, the Shepistanis showed "restraint" by only launching nukes at cities where a missile launcher had been sited.

Shepistan has a strong(ish) ally in the Grand Dominion, and no doubt the Bragulans will be pleased at the aid given in the extraction of their agent. Add this to others who have said "fuck the slavers"....eh. I'm not sure that the blowback will be as bad as you think it will be.

Yeah, I suppose I just don't see the problem, half a gigaton or not. We already knew there were SAMs present, and frankly the Shepistani reaction to them being fired was entirely predictable. If you didn't want him to end up nuking the place, Steve, you really shoulda been questioning Shroom and Shep when the Annapolis took up its position and began launching dropships toward the surface. Mr. Fisher seems to be running an awkwardly loose operation down there when ships can just do as they please, so getting upset when folks react in an... overly enthusiastic manner when their assets are being fired upon is quite frankly a bit silly.

Siege wrote:Yeah, I suppose I just don't see the problem, half a gigaton or not. We already knew there were SAMs present, and frankly the Shepistani reaction to them being fired was entirely predictable. If you didn't want him to end up nuking the place, Steve, you really shoulda been questioning Shroom and Shep when the Annapolis took up its position and began launching dropships toward the surface. Mr. Fisher seems to be running an awkwardly loose operation down there when ships can just do as they please, so getting upset when folks react in an... overly enthusiastic manner when their assets are being fired upon is quite frankly a bit silly.

Well, for one thing, he's trying to set up a planetary invasion, and I presumed the Shepistanis were hiding their Dropship launch amongst other ships launching fighter and gunboat-class ships for CAP against space attacks. He's not going to be told of everything going on at any time.

Secondly, I'm trying to not fuck up the storylines of others. I don't imagine Shroom would like it if I had fighters challenge the dropship and fuck his story up.

Finally, okay, so the Solarians, Bragulans, Imperium, and Dominion won't bat an eye at what Shepistan did. To be honest, you're all, well, kind of on the "militaristic, 'break eggs to make omelettes'" side of the equation. Other states may not be so cavalier about overkill without regard for civilian casualties. I believe someone even told me they'd use it in propaganda videos to rally support for more defense spending.

Umeria is all like "Yeah, why did you invite these lunatics along?"

On the one hand we don't like it one bit; dropping hundreds of megatons on random stretches of Pendletonian countryside gets in the way of the mission of liberating slaves by disintegrating them in massive numbers. And Umerians generally dislike wildcat nutballs who break from the ops plan, on general principles.

On the other, some version of this was kind of predictable. The Shepistanis nuke geese on their own homeworld, for God's sake; what sane commander would expect them to be restrained when faced with an actual opponent that has real weapons?

Cynical interstellar analysts might speculate that the reason the Anglians brought Sheppos along in the first place was so that they could plausible-deniably arrange a demonstration very like this, with the Shepistanis going berserk and blowing up a lot of terrain while the Anglians come in to stop them. Sort of "good cop, bad cop," with the added advantage of the "bad cop" being the Pendletonians' hereditary bogeyman. Or "You think we Anglians are bad, here's the Second Coming of Shep!"

Shroom Man 777 wrote: I intended for the 7,000 SAMs opening up at the exact same time PeZook had the SAMs opening up on that Centrality cloaked destroyer. Basically, while elsewhere the SAMs were shooting at Force Lord's destroyer, other SAMs were also shooting at the droship. Bad timing.

They wouldn't launch all 7000, as I clearly outlined the strategy in my post. A launcher firing is a launcher lost, and the Pendies want to kill as many Marines as they can.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:But, man, holy crap. 7000 SAMs!

(I specifically had Bishop/Shroomshop say "7,000!" since that was the number of SAMs PeZook specified on his post)

Well, it's a militaristic planet paranoid about invasion. They've probably been stockpiling SAMs and SOMs for decades.

Siege wrote:"The countryside" is a disproportionately large place however; we're after all talking about an entire planet worth of it.

Which just means a lot of slaves are going to die from radiation poisoning, inhaling fallout, etc.

Steve wrote:He's talking about the second series of nukings in response to SAM launches, to protect the DropShip carrying the Bragulans. When Shep unleashed multiple missiles which, despite Coalition efforts to destroy the barrage, caused 442 megatons of nuclear ordnance to be detonated throughout one of the regions of Pendleton. In a concession to being under Anglian command, the Shepistanis showed "restraint" by only launching nukes at cities where a missile launcher had been sited.

No, no, no mang.

From Shep's post:


"You have permission to strike every possible military target within a twenty kilometers of the dropship's position...Strategic weapons release is authorized."


"Avoid cities wherever possible; target only the mobile surface to space launchers. But if a launcher complex is in a city...too bad."

With those two lines, the Shepistanis are not only ACTIVELY AVOIDING cities whenever possible - but they're only hitting things within twenty klicks of the d-ship.

That means a very large portion of the area was relatively unscathed. If the dropship flew over a twenty kilometer radius of nothing but uninhabited land, then the nukes may have very well hit only SAMs and military targets as opposed to huddling slaves and civilians.

It's far from the "Shep is nuking everyone!" scenareos of the past. I think he really did deliberately show some restraint.

Simon_Jester wrote:Cynical interstellar analysts might speculate that the reason the Anglians brought Sheppos along in the first place was so that they could plausible-deniably arrange a demonstration very like this, with the Shepistanis going berserk and blowing up a lot of terrain while the Anglians come in to stop them. Sort of "good cop, bad cop," with the added advantage of the "bad cop" being the Pendletonians' hereditary bogeyman. Or "You think we Anglians are bad, here's the Second Coming of Shep!"

This is brilliant. Yes. This is it.

Point of contention: Nukes in this era are likely 99.9999% Gamma ray emission. That means you just get very very bad burns akin to laser burns. You don't get radiation fallout really. You are likely blind at the least if you see the explosion.

Otherwise, I should get radiation poisoning just by handling the 780nm laser I'm playing with right now.

Dave wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: They are now in a better place.

Except for all the ones who didn't die instantly.

If the Shepistani actions become public knowledge, they're getting a nastygram from the Iduran Government. Nobody should do that to any world with a civilian population.

All the more reason to nuke them some more.

The Imperium has a death sentence for slavery and abetting to slavery.

Knowing you, "being a slave" would also be considered "abetting to slavery". Hell, since the slavers live on Pendleton, the planet itself is probably guilty of abetting to slavery.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: The Imperium has a death sentence for slavery and abetting to slavery.

Do they have a death sentence for being a slave? Because I seriously doubt slave-owning Pendeltons packed their personal fallout shelter with slaves.

I can see, perhaps, some owners trying to protect their investment in slave-fallout shelters, but I doubt these are much more than "layer of dirt with a steel box, inside of which is a layer of slaves, another layer of slaves and a layer of good slaves that we don't want irradiated."

In any case, you are probably going to kill more slaves than slave owners.

And people have the gall to accuse Collectors of being nasty and evil

Turns out the 100 000 specimens taken as payment from Pendleton have a good chance of survival, as opposed to those staying behind on the planet?

PeZook wrote:And people have the gall to accuse Collectors of being nasty and evil

Turns out the 100 000 specimens taken as payment from Pendleton have a good chance of survival, as opposed to those staying behind on the planet?

Barring the ethical questions and the fact that the Collectors already left, is it possible for the Coalition to shuffle overflow from the hospital ships to the Collectors? I mean, it could save some lives.

Why, of course! Just contact your creepy and evil friendly local trade station!

PeZook wrote:Why, of course! Just contact your creepy and evil friendly local trade station!

(1) Is a Collector representative at a trade station going to have the capacity to handle millions of irradiated or otherwise injured former slaves?

(2) It ain't my decision -- I'm not part of the Coalition and I'm on the wrong side of the map to render aid.

Well...millions of people might be a problem, yeah. Trade stations don't generally receive that kind of volume. And, of course, they're all the way in Wild Space, and Collectors just killed a lot of Coalition soldiers, so I don't think the plan would gain traction

I must say that Battlestar Annapolis is one of the best damn shows on TV nowadays. Grimdark and gritty, with excellent characterization, gripping suspense and heart-wrenching drama. The realism is palpable, and when you think the show just won't let up, wham, it hits you with a sudden and frank sense of humanity and tenderness, before resuming the brutal tide of heavy metal militarism and post-9/11 conventionalities placed in the hard science-fiction conceptual paradigm.

I think Shep is reliving his Unnamed Porno FanFic era.

Dave wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: The Imperium has a death sentence for slavery and abetting to slavery.

Do they have a death sentence for being a slave? Because I seriously doubt slave-owning Pendeltons packed their personal fallout shelter with slaves.

I can see, perhaps, some owners trying to protect their investment in slave-fallout shelters, but I doubt these are much more than "layer of dirt with a steel box, inside of which is a layer of slaves, another layer of slaves and a layer of good slaves that we don't want irradiated."

In any case, you are probably going to kill more slaves than slave owners.

The Imperium regrets the loss of pointless lives, but we will regard them as martyrs and pray for their souls.

PeZook wrote:And people have the gall to accuse Collectors of being nasty and evil

Turns out the 100 000 specimens taken as payment from Pendleton have a good chance of survival, as opposed to those staying behind on the planet?

We never said you were evil.

We merely decided you commited the 2 cardinal sins of being a rogue AI and xeno.

The sin of being a rogue AI?

...well, at least you don't persecute homosexuals for who they are. I guess that's a step forward

PeZook wrote:The sin of being a rogue AI?

...well, at least you don't persecute homosexuals for who they are. I guess that's a step forward

Yeah we don't.

Just that we distrust rogue AIs which arne't controlled by organics. We grant special dispensation for some, but the Collectors definitely fall under the xeno AI category.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The Imperium regrets the loss of pointless lives...

That's the most brilliant way of stating it I've ever seen. Not a "pointless loss of lives" but a "loss of pointless lives". Dunno if it's intentional or not, but it really says something about the mindset of the Imperium .

I would note that the Sovereignty isn't actually callous about losing lives... As long as those lives are those of Sovereignty citizens. "Better them than us" is the paradigm, which I imagine is somewhat different than the Bragulans (who nuke their own battlegroups) or Sheppos (who nuke their own planets because of... geese).

Siege wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The Imperium regrets the loss of pointless lives...

That's the most brilliant way of stating it I've ever seen. Not a "pointless loss of lives" but a "loss of pointless lives". Dunno if it's intentional or not, but it really says something about the mindset of the Imperium .

Remember, it is better to die for the Emperor than live for yourself!

Siege wrote:I would note that the Sovereignty isn't actually callous about losing lives... As long as those lives are those of Sovereignty citizens. "Better them than us" is the paradigm, which I imagine is somewhat different than the Bragulans (who nuke their own battlegroups) or Sheppos (who nuke their own planets because of... geese).

...and as long as they aren't backed up, I guess

Dave wrote:

PeZook wrote:And people have the gall to accuse Collectors of being nasty and evil

Turns out the 100 000 specimens taken as payment from Pendleton have a good chance of survival, as opposed to those staying behind on the planet?

Barring the ethical questions and the fact that the Collectors already left, is it possible for the Coalition to shuffle overflow from the hospital ships to the Collectors? I mean, it could save some lives.

The question is not if the Collectors will take your patients. The question is if the Collectors will give them back when they've healed.

"Oh, we're sorry, but 50% of them died. And we had to destroy the bodies for safety purposes. We're so very sorry."

Of course, the fact the Coalition just faced down a Monolith is going to sour them on the concept of Collector support anyway. But even if that had never happened, I can't see it as being a good idea in the first place.

Siege wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The Imperium regrets the loss of pointless lives...

That's the most brilliant way of stating it I've ever seen. Not a "pointless loss of lives" but a "loss of pointless lives". Dunno if it's intentional or not, but it really says something about the mindset of the Imperium .

The value of a person to the Imperium is what he does in the service of the Imperium.

The Imperium operates one of the greatest streaming systems around. A person is picked, and his performance and attitude is thoroughly scrutinized, as well as his intelligence. While genetic engineering is highly used, there's still a fair variance in individual capability and attitudes. Everyone is streamed into various roles within the Imperium. He or she is valuable to the Imperium because he either research Science and Technology, making money, supervising and optimizing the extraction of resources, or he is one more warm body to fight and die for the Imperium.

But yeah, that is the worth of a person to the Imperium.