StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I think that 'chemical compounds' should definitely be high on the list of things that the nightwatch needs to be impounding and shipping to secure locations. When you consider how many basic things require something as hard-to-get as ACID, every knocked-over jug becomes a tragedy.

If/when they start going house-to-house in an organized effort every garage and kitchen-sink should be searched throughly. Hell, motor oil alone is going to be invaluable for whatever machinery we can salvage.

I just thought of something that may have been addressed already; what medical personnel do we have? Do we have even ONE person capable of performing surgery safely with skill? If not, people are going to be rather screwed.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I just thought of something that may have been addressed already; what medical personnel do we have? Do we have even ONE person capable of performing surgery safely with skill? If not, people are going to be rather screwed.

I believe we have at least two MDs and a small number of nurses. Surgeons? None that I'm aware of. Unless someone speaks up, I suspect our surgical ability will be limited to whatever a GP can perform, and whatever "frontier" surgery we can pick up.

Don't forget dentists. There are several dental practices on the island, but I don't look forward to some yahoo doing root canal OJT.

A lot of dentists WERE surgeons back in the day. That's why they have red & white barber poles -- based on the fact dentists used to hang the blooded white linens outside their office to dry. "True Blue" is also said to be from dentists, as the shade of blue hid bloodstains.

Now, more OT: Modern firefighters are required to take First Responder courses, which is mostly basic FirstAid, with a little extra on how to stabilize Trauma Patients for transport. Nantucket's fire station should have the course-books available for study, which could be passed around to the populace. The more people we have with at least basic medical knowledge, the better off we'd be as a whole.

The Library should have books on local herbs available. While some of the claims for the herbs are BS, there's enough verifiable herbalism that could help when the drugs start running out. I know the 'natural remedies" sold in Health Food Stores exaggerate their effectiveness, but we'd not be wanting Ginko-tree memory help, we'd be wanting Vit-C/Zinc cold reliever just for the vitamins in it. I don't know if the hi-calorie muscle builders and protein shakes could be used when we're low on meat, but it's a thought.

Actually, those might be a useful way for hunting parties and exploration parties to carry protein with them, as they're relatively light weight and keeps the hunters from using up the meat they're hunting to bring back to the town. Just have to be sure that we pick the "right" ones.

Of course, they wouldn't last forever, but it'll give us time to build up a store of protein based on dried meat, fish and beans.

Pemmican on Wikipedia wrote:Traditionally pemmican was prepared from the lean meat of large game such as buffalo, elk or deer. The meat was cut in thin slices and dried over a slow fire, or in the hot sun until it was hard and brittle. Then it was pounded into very small pieces, almost powder-like in consistency, using stones. The pounded meat was mixed with melted fat with a ratio of approximately 50% pounded meat and 50% melted fat. In some cases, dried fruits such as saskatoon berries, cranberries, blueberries, or choke cherries were pounded into powder and then added to the meat/fat mixture. The resulting mixture was then packed into "green" rawhide pouches for storage.

So... powdered protein mixed with 50% tallow-fat and powdered/minced dried fruit. Yep, sounds like Protein/Power bars to me! I don't know if Nantucket would have buckets of Lard like they would further south, but that'd be a good fat-product to mix it with. Otherwise, just carry the powdered protein mixes to add to water bottles, camp stews, etc.

A recipe for energy bars from Alton Brown, the food geek himself: http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alto ... index.html

LadyTevar wrote: The Library should have books on local herbs available. While some of the claims for the herbs are BS, there's enough verifiable herbalism that could help when the drugs start running out. I know the 'natural remedies" sold in Health Food Stores exaggerate their effectiveness, but we'd not be wanting Ginko-tree memory help, we'd be wanting Vit-C/Zinc cold reliever just for the vitamins in it. I don't know if the hi-calorie muscle builders and protein shakes could be used when we're low on meat, but it's a thought.

One potential problem is that quite a few protein shakes "need" to be mixed with milk. Some work with milk or water, but those that just work with milk aren't terribly palatable if they're mixed with water. And certain flavours (banana and vanilla for example) taste horrible.

It's not about taste though. It's about meal replacement. When you have nothing else and there's no milk anywhere...

One thing on the astronomy front: a better idea than using proper motions of stars, especially considering we probably would not have a table documenting them (they tend to be found only in university libraries and at observatories; all the amateurs I know get the data from the Internet), would be to determine the location of the NCP. The Earth's axis precesses with a period of about 26,000 years, tracing a 47 degree circle on the sky. Carefully observing which point all stars in the sky rotate around would then be the easiest method of determining the NCP's location; another way would be to polar align an equatorial mount as you would today, put it on Polaris or another star, and time how long it takes for the star to drift out of the field, and also in which direction it drifts out. Doing this for stars at several declinations would let us determine the approximate location of the NCP.

starslayer wrote:One thing on the astronomy front: a better idea than using proper motions of stars, especially considering we probably would not have a table documenting them (they tend to be found only in university libraries and at observatories; all the amateurs I know get the data from the Internet), would be to determine the location of the NCP. The Earth's axis precesses with a period of about 26,000 years, tracing a 47 degree circle on the sky. Carefully observing which point all stars in the sky rotate around would then be the easiest method of determining the NCP's location; another way would be to polar align an equatorial mount as you would today, put it on Polaris or another star, and time how long it takes for the star to drift out of the field, and also in which direction it drifts out. Doing this for stars at several declinations would let us determine the approximate location of the NCP.

Luckily, the island comes furnished with a working observatory with an antique 8-inch and a modern 24-inch telescope.
http://www.mmo.org/astronomy/observatories.html

Given that observatory, if we can provide enough power to it, determining when we are becomes even easier: the telescope mounts, being permanent installations, are also permanently polar aligned. It would be a snap to measure the distance of the NCP from various stars around it, giving us a very accurate measure of the current time. We would still need to do some proper motion measurements to be really accurate, but for a first estimate, we shouldn't need to.

starslayer wrote:Given that observatory, if we can provide enough power to it, determining when we are becomes even easier: the telescope mounts, being permanent installations, are also permanently polar aligned. It would be a snap to measure the distance of the NCP from various stars around it, giving us a very accurate measure of the current time. We would still need to do some proper motion measurements to be really accurate, but for a first estimate, we shouldn't need to.

Haa, yes, indeed. I envisioned what I wrote as being part actual science, and part intellectual make-work to give the people who were capable of it the feeling that they were being helpful (with the bonus of giving people something to do that wouldn't be breaking the curfew.) A professional astronomer and a few assistants would lick the problem of figuring out when we are in a few clear nights of observation at the observatory. Having this corps of volunteers write down the timing and direction of stars while they're doing the polar alignment procedure would've been a good idea too, and I wish I'd thought of it. It's been quite a few years since I've used an equatorial-mount telescope (currently using an 8" reflector on a Dobsonian mount and a couple of alt-az refractors.)

Considering the low supply of antibiotics it might be wise to issue a ban on eating honey, and instead consign all of it to medical use? After all, the antibacterial properties of honey means it can be an effective disinfectant for external wounds, although it obviously cannot duplicate the effects of antibiotics ingested internally.

I don't know about in America, but over here most houses have a jar or two of honey lying around, so there should be a decent amount of it available, and unlike alcohol, most people probably wouldn't protest too hard from having it taken away either.

The surgeons in ancient Egypt used it as such, and by all accounts they were relatively successful for their time. It would certainly be better than nothing at all, so it's not like we have much to loose.

Why couldn't we start producing pennicilin with relative ease, anyway?

PeZook wrote:Why couldn't we start producing pennicilin with relative ease, anyway?

Because we don't have a mold culture to start producing it with.

Not quite true, actually. If blue cheese is available in any of the houses or markets on Nantucket, we could use those to start a culture.

Soil molds are also typically of the same family, but we would have to be careful to avoid the ones that produce mycotoxins. Hence why starting with blue cheese would probably be a better option.

Crayz9000 wrote:Not quite true, actually. If blue cheese is available in any of the houses or markets on Nantucket, we could use those to start a culture.

Soil molds are also typically of the same family, but we would have to be careful to avoid the ones that produce mycotoxins. Hence why starting with blue cheese would probably be a better option.

It's Nantucket, a getaway for the wealthy. The only problem will be WHICH blue cheese to grab

Terwynn wrote:Haa, yes, indeed. I envisioned what I wrote as being part actual science, and part intellectual make-work to give the people who were capable of it the feeling that they were being helpful (with the bonus of giving people something to do that wouldn't be breaking the curfew.) A professional astronomer and a few assistants would lick the problem of figuring out when we are in a few clear nights of observation at the observatory. Having this corps of volunteers write down the timing and direction of stars while they're doing the polar alignment procedure would've been a good idea too, and I wish I'd thought of it. It's been quite a few years since I've used an equatorial-mount telescope (currently using an 8" reflector on a Dobsonian mount and a couple of alt-az refractors.)

8" Dob on this end, too, with a look toward a 12-inch and a small alt-az refractor as an RFT. Anyways, your solution is probably a good one as well providing we've got enough car/deep cycle marine batteries, which will be easier to come by than Packer's gasifiers, especially a mere week or two after the Event. I say car batteries because the analog setting circles on any amateur EQ mount aren't going to be anywhere near accurate enough (the pricey mounts simply don't have them); however, the DSCs on the scopes that have them should be. I'd still prefer an NCP measurement either via eye or drift alignment, though.

EDIT: Actually, Terwynn, it just occurred to me that a proper motion study wouldn't work at all, in terms of doing anything useful using today's mounts. That's because every mount we had would be calibrated using J2000.0 coordinates, which are calibrated to the current location of the NCP. In effect, the origin of the coordinate system has shifted by a significant amount (the date is supposed to be ~3000 BC, right?). So, in order to establish the correct transform, we'd need to find the current location of the NCP anyways. Still, it is good make-work that could be given to people that aren't well-versed in astronomy, amateur or otherwise, and could indeed be easily dressed up as something helpful.

starslayer wrote:

Terwynn wrote:Haa, yes, indeed. I envisioned what I wrote as being part actual science, and part intellectual make-work to give the people who were capable of it the feeling that they were being helpful (with the bonus of giving people something to do that wouldn't be breaking the curfew.) A professional astronomer and a few assistants would lick the problem of figuring out when we are in a few clear nights of observation at the observatory. Having this corps of volunteers write down the timing and direction of stars while they're doing the polar alignment procedure would've been a good idea too, and I wish I'd thought of it. It's been quite a few years since I've used an equatorial-mount telescope (currently using an 8" reflector on a Dobsonian mount and a couple of alt-az refractors.)

8" Dob on this end, too, with a look toward a 12-inch and a small alt-az refractor as an RFT. Anyways, your solution is probably a good one as well providing we've got enough car/deep cycle marine batteries, which will be easier to come by than Packer's gasifiers, especially a mere week or two after the Event. I say car batteries because the analog setting circles on any amateur EQ mount aren't going to be anywhere near accurate enough (the pricey mounts simply don't have them); however, the DSCs on the scopes that have them should be. I'd still prefer an NCP measurement either via eye or drift alignment, though.

EDIT: Actually, Terwynn, it just occurred to me that a proper motion study wouldn't work at all, in terms of doing anything useful using today's mounts. That's because every mount we had would be calibrated using J2000.0 coordinates, which are calibrated to the current location of the NCP. In effect, the origin of the coordinate system has shifted by a significant amount (the date is supposed to be ~3000 BC, right?). So, in order to establish the correct transform, we'd need to find the current location of the NCP anyways. Still, it is good make-work that could be given to people that aren't well-versed in astronomy, amateur or otherwise, and could indeed be easily dressed up as something helpful.

It's 1250 BCE, which works out to be over 3200 years ago. Which is only around 60% as bad as 3000 BCE. I would imagine that the work would go as follows. Hopefully I've gotten the general details right:
A) The people at the observatory attempt to determine where the NCP is. Figuring out when we are is pretty important, so the observatory ought to end up with a generator and some people to keep the miscreants out.
B) Amateur astronomers are likewise tasked with determining the NCP, just to verify that; no, we've really not gone off our rockers and Earth's precession is over 3000 years off from where we expect it to be.
C) Put together an alignment procedure and farm it out to the volunteers. Tell them to write down the locations of a number of stars at various declinations, just to make sure they're doing it right.
D) With the location of the NCP pinned down; do a proper motion study at the observatory and among the knowledgeable amateur astronomers.
E) Repeat with the volunteers, or have them work in concert.
F) Tabulate all the gathered data as it comes in. Observatory numbers. Saavy amateur numbers. Volunteer numbers. See where they all fall.
G) . . .
H) Get drunk to ease away the sheer horror of it all PROFIT!

That should work. The way I would do it is:

A) Grab a 12V source (most of those cars won't be needing their batteries anymore).
B) Find an EQ mounted scope with a Telrad on it (reflex sight); this should be easy too, as an any amateur worth his salt will have one. If necessary, take one from a different scope.
C) Polar align said scope for ~42 N, 2009 AD. North is easy to find during the day using the shadow of a stick.
D) Point the scope at the NCP. Use the Telrad to see exactly where this is. In ~1000 BC, Kochab should be within a degree or two of the NCP.
E) Proceed to verify this using the observatory.
F) Determine the offsets to various distant stars using both amateur and our new professional equipment, and let the realization sink in.
G) ...
H) *sigh* PROFIT!

EDIT: Whoops, it seems Kochab doesn't come within five degrees of the NCP at any point.