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Ghost Rider wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:They did not appear to be at warp speed when the Klingons began firing at them. Just how hard were they trying to escape?

Exactly, no warp, no nothing. It was her issuing the order, the Klingons firing and wrecking them. All in all it looked more like the instant they encountered the Klingons a giant sign saying "Grab ankles and get lube" was flashing.

Or Sulu was just not trying very hard to escape. When he needs to, he can go to warp in a couple of seconds.

Darth Wong wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:They did not appear to be at warp speed when the Klingons began firing at them. Just how hard were they trying to escape?

Exactly, no warp, no nothing. It was her issuing the order, the Klingons firing and wrecking them. All in all it looked more like the instant they encountered the Klingons a giant sign saying "Grab ankles and get lube" was flashing.

Or Sulu was just not trying very hard to escape. When he needs to, he can go to warp in a couple of seconds.

That too, which could just lead to the death of the crew and how does the captain react to such. All in all, it's presented slightly poorly given that as you pointed out, Sulu can get to warp pretty quickly, their systems were in perfect order and yet she fails, because you have to fail.

I kind of wished for some reveal at what Kirk did because the tantalization that he reprogrammed so he could win, and I disagreed with the vision that he made it one shot, one kill that the new movie brings up. Somehow I doubt he's going to recieve any commedation for original thinking if he activated God-Mode.

In the TWOK example of the KM incident, you have experienced Officers as stand ins for the crew. I wonder if they are under orders or doctrine to flub up commands of the cadet in the big chair and that is directly responsible for a lot of the 'it can be won' part of the test. However, in the new movie, IIRC there was nothing but cadets in the simulator with the officers and proctors are in the next room.

Uraniun235 wrote:I don't think that's "known" as of TOS, especially given how far the Enterprise had to run to aid the Romulan zone outposts in Balance of Terror. I don't even know if it's "known" that they regularly patrol it, just that the Enterprise is sometimes on patrol. If you recall episodes that say otherwise, please share.

Also, if they do regularly patrol it, in TNG they usually patrol so far apart that they can't expect help to arrive before the Klingons/Romulans arrive from the other side (TNG The Enemy). So if the Klingons can assemble a squadron of heavy cruisers within moments of detecting an intrusion - a squadron which can ambush and take out one of Starfleet's finest within moments - where is the Starfleet equivalent on their side of the Zone?

In "The Enterprise Incident", the Enterprise was jumped within minutes of entering the Neutral Zone by a Romulan flotilla, whilst in "The Deadly Years" it seemed to take a longer time before they fell under attack by a squadron of 10 Warbirds. However, in "The Way To Eden", the Enterprise sailed through into Romulan space unopposed and spent quite a bit of time over one of their planets, especially with the crew incapacitated, and not even a scout-probe showed up to query them. So it has not always been the case that the Zone is regularly patrolled or closely patrolled.

Certainly, the only query the Enterprise received after crossing into Klingon space in TUC was from K'dumb and K'dumber on the listening post asteroid —who not only couldn't tell what ship they were talking to but also couldn't tell that something was wrong from the terrible grammar and hesitancy of the speaker from "freighter Usqvra". Not a single ship scrambled to investigate the mysterious contact which was headed toward Rura Penthe during a time of heightened intragalactic tension with two notorious Federation prisoners in detention there.

In any case, none of these incidents really give a clear gauge as to the realism of the KM scenario with regards to the expected level of opposition a ship captain could face; more likely being programmed for worst-case situation as the essential component of the test.

Darth Wong wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:They did not appear to be at warp speed when the Klingons began firing at them. Just how hard were they trying to escape?

Exactly, no warp, no nothing. It was her issuing the order, the Klingons firing and wrecking them. All in all it looked more like the instant they encountered the Klingons a giant sign saying "Grab ankles and get lube" was flashing.

Or Sulu was just not trying very hard to escape. When he needs to, he can go to warp in a couple of seconds.

Space being 3 dimensional makes what I say hard to pove without more information but if the Enterprise entered the Neutral Zone and was heading in deeper on a fast as possible shortest line path then Sulu could not just instantly go to warp when fired upon. Unless the Neutral Zone is a very odd shape then jumping into warp at the first instant of trouble would send the Enterprise flying out of the Neutral Zone and into Klingon space. A skirmish within the neutral zone can be negotiated away, a Starfleet ship flying into Klingon space may be a lot more difficult. So at the very least Sulu may need a few seconds to reorient the Enterprise so her jump to warp takes her somewhere safe and into Federation territory.

Also (and this part is based on a book) the KM is a no win no matter what you do. If the Federation ship decides to immediatly retreat then the program just makes sure that the Klingon ships instantly disable their warp drive.

Darth Wong wrote:

Uraniun235 wrote:In TWOK, Saavik tried to retreat. Sulu said he'd "try", and the Klingons managed to overwhelm the Enterprise anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that retreat in the face of overwhelming odds is appropriate, I'm just saying that running didn't work when we saw the scenario in TWOK.

I haven't seen that in many years. Did they attempt to retreat the moment they detected the Klingons approaching, or did they wait until they were already being pounded?

As Saavik tells the transporter room to prepare to beam survivors aboard, Uhura says they lost the distress call. Right then, the computer calls out three Klingon cruisers coming in. Saavik orders shields up and calls battle stations, then orders Uhura to tell the Klingons they're on a rescue mission; the Klingons are 'jamming all the frequencies'. Saavik mutters "we're in over our heads" and orders retreat; Sulu says "I'll try..."; after a few seconds, the Klingons open fire, disabling the "main energizer" on the first volley.


Yes, we didn't see them enter warp, so from a SOD perspective we may conclude that something else is up there (like Sulu was deliberately being slow or they had to re-orient or something); but the producers were working purely off of re-used TMP footage for the Klingon attack, which partly serves to explain why that scene was made that way.

Bilbo wrote:Also (and this part is based on a book) the KM is a no win no matter what you do. If the Federation ship decides to immediatly retreat then the program just makes sure that the Klingon ships instantly disable their warp drive.

Well, we don't even need to resort to books to think of the various ways the scenario could thwart you; the warp drive could fail at that moment, or the Klingons may simply be given faster engines in the computer simulation, or whatever.

Uraniun235 wrote:

Bilbo wrote:Also (and this part is based on a book) the KM is a no win no matter what you do. If the Federation ship decides to immediatly retreat then the program just makes sure that the Klingon ships instantly disable their warp drive.

Well, we don't even need to resort to books to think of the various ways the scenario could thwart you; the warp drive could fail at that moment, or the Klingons may simply be given faster engines in the computer simulation, or whatever.

The only reason I resorted to a book is because in the Trek novel titled "Kobyashi Maru" it straight out says that the program is designed to do anything and everything to win. There were several examples in the book. In the scenario where Kirk wins, before he has a chance to activate his "cheat" a single Klingon torpedoe brought down 100% of his ships shields. In another example when Scotty did took the test the simulation threw in 20 Klingon Cruisers to block him in and destroy his ship.

Bilbo wrote:

Uraniun235 wrote:

Bilbo wrote:Also (and this part is based on a book) the KM is a no win no matter what you do. If the Federation ship decides to immediatly retreat then the program just makes sure that the Klingon ships instantly disable their warp drive.

Well, we don't even need to resort to books to think of the various ways the scenario could thwart you; the warp drive could fail at that moment, or the Klingons may simply be given faster engines in the computer simulation, or whatever.

The only reason I resorted to a book is because in the Trek novel titled "Kobyashi Maru" it straight out says that the program is designed to do anything and everything to win. There were several examples in the book. In the scenario where Kirk wins, before he has a chance to activate his "cheat" a single Klingon torpedoe brought down 100% of his ships shields. In another example when Scotty did took the test the simulation threw in 20 Klingon Cruisers to block him in and destroy his ship.

I liked that book. It took 20 for Scotty because he had some inside knowledge that made it difficult to kill him off.

Would it be possible to split off the KM tangent? It's really interesting stuff but it's got hardly anything to do with the size of the Enterprise.

Ghost Rider wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:They did not appear to be at warp speed when the Klingons began firing at them. Just how hard were they trying to escape?

Exactly, no warp, no nothing. It was her issuing the order, the Klingons firing and wrecking them. All in all it looked more like the instant they encountered the Klingons a giant sign saying "Grab ankles and get lube" was flashing.

Speaking of Warp did they change the scale again as it sounded like several times they were talking about warp 3 and if Scotty could get her up to warp 4.

dragon wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:They did not appear to be at warp speed when the Klingons began firing at them. Just how hard were they trying to escape?

Exactly, no warp, no nothing. It was her issuing the order, the Klingons firing and wrecking them. All in all it looked more like the instant they encountered the Klingons a giant sign saying "Grab ankles and get lube" was flashing.

Speaking of Warp did they change the scale again as it sounded like several times they were talking about warp 3 and if Scotty could get her up to warp 4.

I think it's been discussed before but it seemed more due to the fact that the debresis in Vulcan's orbit damaged the nacelle thus causing the warp drive to run in less then optimal effiency.

DAmn internet ate my post . Anyways kind of what I was thinking.

Has anyone calculated a rough spped for the Enterprise. If I rember right Vulcan is about 16 which they stated in a couple of Ent episodes. And from the pace of things only a short period of time passed between leaving Earth and arriving at Vulcan. If it took an hour, which it seems less than on screen, then they would have to travel roughly 140,000 times the speed of light.

But woth several topics on the Film most of which are very long someone most likely figured out a better estimate.

The speed ranges from approximately 141000 c, assuming that the novel is somewhat correct (an hour to go from Earth to Vulcan), to 430000 c for 30 minutes, a good probable scenario. Yeah. An ork got in her warp drive, and painted it all red I imagine.

A early Starfleet ship such as the USS Kelvin already being significantly bigger than most 23rd century Starfleet ships in the "original" timeline could be down to the very serious Xindi incursion that immolated much of North American and nearly destroyed planet Earth itself: a Wolf 359-like scenario that kicked the UFP up the backside and prompted it to upscale Starfleet's ships in size and power much earlier, I mean Archer's pet dog was teleported away by Scotty.

Big Orange wrote:A early Starfleet ship such as the USS Kelvin already being significantly bigger than most 23rd century Starfleet ships in the "original" timeline could be down to the very serious Xindi incursion that immolated much of North American and nearly destroyed planet Earth itself: a Wolf 359-like scenario that kicked the UFP up the backside and prompted it to upscale Starfleet's ships in size and power much earlier, I mean Archer's pet dog was teleported away by Scotty.

Don't make excuses for it. It's just a franchise reboot; why do people resist this simple statement? Trying to tie it into the original series is an exercise in futility. If it was just a matter of being "kicked up the backside", then you're implying they could have easily done this in the original timeline but chose not to ... just because they didn't want to bother. That's completely retarded; they were locked in a power struggle with the expansionist Klingon Empire. Why would they not make bigger and more powerful ships if they had the ability to do so? We've already been over this earlier in the thread; it's retarded and plays into the "warrior culture" bullshit where people think that advancement is a matter of simple willpower and not a culture of science.

The main reason that Starfleet ships were comparatively diminutive in the Roddenbery-verse was because Star Trek was a medium budget TV show that ran in the 1960s, well before the colossus Death Star and Star Destroyers were projected onto the screen in 1977, and they decided to show a starship that could be comprehended by the audience if it was marginally bigger than a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier and commanded by a tightly knit crew.

I don't feel strongly about the mammoth size of the creatively overhauled Constitution-class, it looks great on screen and upscales the scope of the movie without overdoing it (unlike Shinzon's ridiculous Wankbird, which seemed more out place in the relatively sedate and homely TNG setting).

Um-Nimitz wasn't laid down until 2 years AFTER Star Trek first aired. Doesn't change much of anything as your point would work just as well for 'Enterprise' (pun intended) though.

Batman wrote:Um-Nimitz wasn't laid down until 2 years AFTER Star Trek first aired. Doesn't change much of anything as your point would work just as well for 'Enterprise' (pun intended) though.

The USS Enterprise which is of similar dimensions, has already been laid down.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:

Batman wrote:Um-Nimitz wasn't laid down until 2 years AFTER Star Trek first aired. Doesn't change much of anything as your point would work just as well for 'Enterprise' (pun intended) though.

The USS Enterprise which is of similar dimensions, has already been laid down.

I think that was the point that Batman was trying to make. I am still not sure how you can equate a carrier with nearly 6,000 crew to the original Starship Enterprise. Even the E-D did not come close to having the crew of a modern aircraft carrier.

Jason L. Miles wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:

Batman wrote:Um-Nimitz wasn't laid down until 2 years AFTER Star Trek first aired. Doesn't change much of anything as your point would work just as well for 'Enterprise' (pun intended) though.

The USS Enterprise which is of similar dimensions, has already been laid down.

I think that was the point that Batman was trying to make. I am still not sure how you can equate a carrier with nearly 6,000 crew to the original Starship Enterprise. Even the E-D did not come close to having the crew of a modern aircraft carrier.

I've always felt thought that ST did fall on the side of right in having crews smaller than current ocean-going warships, increasing automation for complex systems would be the norm as tech progresses. The Iowa class crew requirements shrank significantly from the 1940's to the 1990's as a case in point.

Isn't a big chunk of that 6000-man crew attached to flight operations as well?

On a flat top, they have hundreds of different job descriptions. Imagine trying to run a Nimitz on a crew of three hundred people(!)

Jason L. Miles wrote:I think that was the point that Batman was trying to make. I am still not sure how you can equate a carrier with nearly 6,000 crew to the original Starship Enterprise. Even the E-D did not come close to having the crew of a modern aircraft carrier.

The saucer section of the starship in question probably has less volume space than the USS Enterprise. How do you plan to house that many crew in that ship?

tim31 wrote:On a flat top, they have hundreds of different job descriptions. Imagine trying to run a Nimitz on a crew of three hundred people(!)

How many on a carrier would you not need any longer if you eliminated it's flight deck operations and fighter wing?

Havok wrote:

tim31 wrote:On a flat top, they have hundreds of different job descriptions. Imagine trying to run a Nimitz on a crew of three hundred people(!)

How many on a carrier would you not need any longer if you eliminated it's flight deck operations and fighter wing?

The possessive form of "it" is "its", not "it's". The term "it's" is a contraction of "it is".

Anyway, a Federation starship has shuttles. It should have a rather large crew for that reason alone, especially since the new ships have so many shuttles. Each shuttle has its own fuel system, space-frame, weapons, life support system, computer system, sensors, communications gear, warp drive, power source, etc. It's a miniaturized version of a full starship after all; maintenance and repair of each and every shuttle should require personnel.

Star Trek has never really accounted for this. We see that a large crew is constantly necessary to maintain and monitor a starship's engineering section, but shuttles are treated as if they're no more complex than automobiles. Just park it in the garage and ignore it most of the time. That doesn't make any sense; if their technology is that reliable, why do they have to constantly monitor their starship warp core to make sure it doesn't fall apart or blow itself up?

Again, the problem is the writers. They don't realize that real-life military aircraft require constant maintenance, and don't just get parked in a hangar like an oversized pickup truck with wings after every flight.