More on Terri Schiavo--UPDATE: Schiavo dead 31 Mar 05

[Durandal]

I'm smelling a "both our opinions are equally valid" cowardly retreat in the near future ...

...and I smell something else more foul, but then it hardly matters, since most here seem convinced that the right decision has been made by the courts.

You know, I'm getting sick of your, "I disagree but I won't argue since no one will change their minds anyway" bullshit. If you're not going to argue, no one's interested in your opinion.

[SirNitram]

For once in your life, back up your claims, jegs. I respect you as a human being for the discipline you need in order to do your job, but quite frankly, as a debater you suck shit.

I'm going off what I've seen in the news. Some claim that Terri reacts in a manner that fails to support the assertion she is braindead. We have no document of her wanting to die if left in a condition like this, and we have no claim other than that of a husband who has been in a common-law marriage for a number of years. What is to lose by giving her parents sole custody of Terri and granting her a divorce so Michael can move on?

Stop eating what you're fed and research. Failing that, read this thread, enough evidence is in it. Michael's not the one making the call. I wish this dumb-shit lie would die already.

[jegs2]

If nothing else good comes from this case (as I suspect), then at least people will have hopefully learned the value of writing living wills and protecting themselves.

[Alyrium Denryle]

If nothing else good comes from this case (as I suspect), then at least people will have hopefully learned the value of writing living wills and protecting themselves.

Hopefully.

But the news likes to *gasp* twist things

Her brain is literally mush, and people who have no nigher brain activity will still cry, blink, and even move at random.

most people I have found blink every 4 seconds or so. That is long enough to say something like "Blink if you can hear me" and their body will cry to keep their eyes lubricated. Have your eyes ever teared up involuntarily for no reason?

and moving.. dont get me started... I have tourretts I twitch at random. no higher brain functions involved at all, just a spasm in my brain stem.

[Darth Wong]

For once in your life, back up your claims, jegs. I respect you as a human being for the discipline you need in order to do your job, but quite frankly, as a debater you suck shit.

I'm going off what I've seen in the news. Some claim that Terri reacts in a manner that fails to support the assertion she is braindead.

Unless these "some" you mention are qualified neurologists with a clean disciplinary record and an actual inspection of the patient (note: neither of the family's two quack experts qualify), their opinions are worth precisely nothing.

We have no document of her wanting to die if left in a condition like this, and we have no claim other than that of a husband who has been in a common-law marriage for a number of years. What is to lose by giving her parents sole custody of Terri and granting her a divorce so Michael can move on?

Obviously, you do not care for the sanctity of marriage. She did not have to specifically leave a document stating her wish to die; she gave that decision-making authority to her husband by marrying him. If I were ever in a vegetative state, I would want my wife making the decision. Not you, not Rush Limbaugh, not Sean Hannity, not George W. Bush, not the fucking US Congress, and not millions of fucking people that I never met and certainly never married.

[jegs2]

Obviously, you do not care for the sanctity of marriage. She did not have to specifically leave a document stating her wish to die; she gave that decision-making authority to her husband by marrying him. If I were ever in a vegetative state, I would want my wife making the decision. Not you, not Rush Limbaugh, not Sean Hannity, not George W. Bush, not the fucking US Congress, and not millions of fucking people that I never met and certainly never married.

Certainly, I see your point on wishing our spouse to make key life and death decisions, but what I've seen on the news lately is that Michael did not reveal that Terrri wanted to die until after he was already seriously involved with another woman. If that is true, would it not affect his decision making process or perhaps jar a "new" memory of what he thought she really wanted?

[Firefox]

Is it a vain hope to expect a reporter at Bush's next press conference to ask him why a six-month-old kid died under a law he signed as governor, and why he interrupted his vacation to perform a contradictory act to "save" Mrs. Schiavo?

[Stormbringer]

She's been in this state for 15 years. Jegs do you really think she's going to get better? And if she's not why should she be kept alive?

I'm not comfortable with euthenasia, but in this case Mike is right. She's long gone.

[jegs2]

She's been in this state for 15 years. Jegs do you really think she's going to get better? And if she's not why should she be kept alive?

It's a gray area. I'm just uncomfortable with the government ordering her to be killed by pulling her feeding tube, despite family wishes to the contrary. Unlike someone on Death Row, she was found guilty of no capital crime.

I'm not comfortable with euthenasia, but in this case Mike is right. She's long gone.

She may be, and if her wishes were truly known and her husband's motives were not questionable, I'd not object.

[Darth Wong]

Obviously, you do not care for the sanctity of marriage. She did not have to specifically leave a document stating her wish to die; she gave that decision-making authority to her husband by marrying him. If I were ever in a vegetative state, I would want my wife making the decision. Not you, not Rush Limbaugh, not Sean Hannity, not George W. Bush, not the fucking US Congress, and not millions of fucking people that I never met and certainly never married.

Certainly, I see your point on wishing our spouse to make key life and death decisions, but what I've seen on the news lately is that Michael did not reveal that Terrri wanted to die until after he was already seriously involved with another woman. If that is true, would it not affect his decision making process or perhaps jar a "new" memory of what he thought she really wanted?

If I was a turnip for 15 years and my wife was still alone after all that time, that would be absolutely horrible. I've told her already that if I'm gone, I would want her to find someone new and be happy. If she were to take up with someone else while I was a vegetable, I don't see why that would somehow invalidate this trust. Can you not say the same?

[jegs2]

If I was a turnip for 15 years and my wife was still alone after all that time, that would be absolutely horrible. I've told her already that if I'm gone, I would want her to find someone new and be happy. If she were to take up with someone else while I was a vegetable, I don't see why that would somehow invalidate this trust. Can you not say the same?

If you feel that way, then I hope you've recorded it in a living will. As for what I'd want, it's difficult to say right now. Many people say, "I'd never want to live that way," but then they cling desperately to life toward the end. I personally don't think she can ever recover, but then if all family members were in concert on agreeing to let her die without the government stepping in and ordering her death, I'd be less squeamish about the whole situation.

[Durandal]

Obviously, you do not care for the sanctity of marriage. She did not have to specifically leave a document stating her wish to die; she gave that decision-making authority to her husband by marrying him. If I were ever in a vegetative state, I would want my wife making the decision. Not you, not Rush Limbaugh, not Sean Hannity, not George W. Bush, not the fucking US Congress, and not millions of fucking people that I never met and certainly never married.

Certainly, I see your point on wishing our spouse to make key life and death decisions, but what I've seen on the news lately is that Michael did not reveal that Terrri wanted to die until after he was already seriously involved with another woman. If that is true, would it not affect his decision making process or perhaps jar a "new" memory of what he thought she really wanted?

If I was a turnip for 15 years and my wife was still alone after all that time, that would be absolutely horrible. I've told her already that if I'm gone, I would want her to find someone new and be happy. If she were to take up with someone else while I was a vegetable, I don't see why that would somehow invalidate this trust. Can you not say the same?

Your case is a little different because you have kids. (I don't think the Schiavos do.) Not to insult your wife, but the job prospects for a stay-at-home mom are pretty slim. I know that you're proud of her for devoting her time to the children, and I think it's a good thing as well. But she'd almost have to remarry to ensure that your children are well taken care of.

[Patrick Degan]

but what I've seen on the news lately is that Michael did not reveal that Terrri wanted to die until after he was already seriously involved with another woman. If that is true, would it not affect his decision making process or perhaps jar a "new" memory of what he thought she really wanted?

Immaterial. Terri Schiavo is no longer in any condition to specify wishes or anything. Her condition is in fact irreversible. The law recognises the spouse as having power of attorney in such situations, so whenever Michael Schiavo might have cited his wife's wishes or not counts for nothing at this point. Especially after his wife's brain has liquefied and there is no longer any conscious entity which was once known as Terri Schiavo.

[Darth Servo]

Your case is a little different because you have kids. (I don't think the Schiavos do.) Not to insult your wife, but the job prospects for a stay-at-home mom are pretty slim. I know that you're proud of her for devoting her time to the children, and I think it's a good thing as well. But she'd almost have to remarry to ensure that your children are well taken care of.

I think Mike would say the same even w/o the kids. He loves her and wants her to be happy. That is better accomplished when you have another good person in your life than when you're alone.

[The Spartan]

It's a gray area. I'm just uncomfortable with the government ordering her to be killed by pulling her feeding tube, despite family wishes to the contrary. Unlike someone on Death Row, she was found guilty of no capital crime.

What gray area? She's a animated corpse. She's not being killed. She's already dead. In effect, they're just unhooking the puppet strings. If she had any functional gray matter I might agree with you. But she doesn't. There's little more than a puddle of goo where her brain used to be. As for her family's wishes: her husband is her family. Her parents lost the right to make these decisions when she got married. As such, in a legal sense, it is not against her family's wishes.

I'm not comfortable with euthenasia, but in this case Mike is right. She's long gone.

She may be, and if her wishes were truly known and her husband's motives were not questionable, I'd not object.

What her wishes were or were not are irrelevant. Her husband has power of attorney in cases such as this, therefore it is his decision and only his decision. All the "questionable motives" that have been brought up against him are bullshit. Go back and read this thread, you'll see that these were all brought up *long* after the fact by her parents in a desperate attempt to cling to what's left of their daughter and that they are, as I said, bullshit.

[Darth Wong]

If I was a turnip for 15 years and my wife was still alone after all that time, that would be absolutely horrible. I've told her already that if I'm gone, I would want her to find someone new and be happy. If she were to take up with someone else while I was a vegetable, I don't see why that would somehow invalidate this trust. Can you not say the same?

If you feel that way, then I hope you've recorded it in a living will.

You're missing the point; WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO? My wife has power of attorney; the state has no fucking business interfering. Neither do you, or Rush Limbaugh, or Sean Hannity, or George W. Bush, or Jerry Falwell.

As for what I'd want, it's difficult to say right now. Many people say, "I'd never want to live that way," but then they cling desperately to life toward the end.

The end has already come and gone. I don't think you're understanding what brain liquefaction means.

[The Yosemite Bear]

To say nothing of Yasser Arafat.

or
Neville Chamberlin

[HemlockGrey]

Don't call me stupid, Durandal!

Why not? He used to kill for the CIA!

[Plekhanov]

I've never before seen so many on the Left so in lock-step behind celebrating the impending death of someone like this

Just out of interest jegs, why do you think that “so many on the Left” (and also it has to be said on this board at least most of those on the right as well) have decided to gang up on the still breathing corpse that used to be Terri to call for and celebrate her death in this way? What possible reason would most of the posters on this board and according to the polls some 70% of the US population have for doing so?

The motivation for Bush and his fellow Republicans to take the stance that he has is clear as is the motivation for the ideologically blinded world denying fundamentalist Christians you are so proud to number your self amongst.

I’m puzzled though and was hoping you could give me an insight into the mind of fundamentalist. Why do you think that so many people all over the world have chosen to, as you seem to view it, gang up upon the Terri? What has she done to offend us so that we should wish her ill?

Now, if we can just get you to line up behind the killing of criminals on Death Row too...

Why is it the difference between actively ending the life of a human being and letting a brainless shell that used to be a person die escapes you?

[Xon]

Fun little fact; Terri Schiavo is not going to starve to death when the feeding tube is removed. Its dehydration which is going to kill her in under 3 days.

[fuzzymillipede]

Errrr, it's been like 5 days since the tube was removed....

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Probably she consumes very little water in her vegetable state. However, I wouldn't be surprised if she expires before GWB on his white stallion valiantly puts it back in.

[Firefox]

... or if he, like the 9-year-old, decides to bring her a glass of water.

[Xon]

The 3 days figure is for someone is is up & about and under a presubably "normal" load.

So for a vegetable, she probably doesnt need much water. But I would not be suprised she died within the next few days.

[Xon]

... or if he, like the 9-year-old, decides to bring her a glass of water.

That would kill her via drowning.

No swallowing reflex means she would breath anything you pour down her throat.