The Dark Knight (GODDAMN SPOILERS)

Post by **Vympel** » 2008-07-24 10:07am

havokeff wrote:Holy shit. Bale's Batman voice in Begins is NOWHERE near as gruff as it is in TDK, at least when he is just talking and not threating criminals, but even then it's not as bad. And actually, I might like Katie Holmes better then Maggie Gyllenhall.

Maggie Gyllenhall for some reason looks like a young old lady, so it's not surprising.

Ericxihn · Post by **Ericxihn** » 2008-07-24 11:26am

havokeff wrote:
General Zod wrote:
The Wench wrote: What suggests Nolan is straying from that original 'comic' dynamic in the first place? I guess I didn't see anything that insinuated Nolan thought there was a third piece of Bruce/Batman not present already in the other two fragments of his personality and that he was attempting to flesh that out.
The whole "I'm really Batman and Bruce Wayne is the mask" thing doesn't happen until much later in the comics iirc. Since the new movies are depicting Batman just starting out, it's fairly safe to say he hasn't reached that level of development yet.
No. They had a very specific scene in Batman Begins where they address this. It is Rachel that comments the the mask is Wayne and Batman has become the true face.

That scene actually had her say that she couldn't be with him unless he lost both masks

Yes, the playboy Bruce Wayne is less of a mask than Batman, but he spent the entire Dark Knight helping Harvey Dent out so that he could stop being Batman and have a normal life.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2008-07-24 12:22pm

Pulp Hero wrote:If you saw the talk, not much. If you missed the talk, then it was the Joker convincing Dent to be an "agent of chaos" because the world was unfair.

Did he also told another "how I got my scar" version by any chance?

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2008-07-24 12:29pm

Gandalf wrote:
Schuyler Colfax wrote:One gripe that I do have is that Scarecrow was completely unnecessary, I liked him in the first one but, after seeing what little he had to do here, I would have preferred him getting killed off in the first movie.
I couldn't figure that one out either. I can only assume that he's being set up to come back somehow and this scene just establishes that he's alive.

Well you could make a link as he inadvertably gave manpower to the Joker

a) Scarecrow's drugs made a lot junkies insane

b) Look at Joker's thugs.
The fake policeman who shot Gordon didn't looked like a very stable person. Not to mention the guy with his cellphone in his stomach. I'd say the Joker preferred recruiting other fruitcakes
Would a remotely sane person want to work for Joker rather than trying a career with the mob?

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2008-07-24 12:34pm

Ahum, third post in a row

I liked the movie but the Two-Face storyline was a bit overdone in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, the buildup for his transmorphis was great. But I rather saw it happen at the end of the movie and you got your main villain for the third movie right there. Instead of wasting time with his little killing spree I rather saw some more focus on Batman vs Joker

The Wench · Post by **The Wench** » 2008-07-24 01:29pm

Ericxihn wrote:
havokeff wrote:
General Zod wrote: The whole "I'm really Batman and Bruce Wayne is the mask" thing doesn't happen until much later in the comics iirc. Since the new movies are depicting Batman just starting out, it's fairly safe to say he hasn't reached that level of development yet.
No. They had a very specific scene in Batman Begins where they address this. It is Rachel that comments the the mask is Wayne and Batman has become the true face.
That scene actually had her say that she couldn't be with him unless he lost both masks

Yes, the playboy Bruce Wayne is less of a mask than Batman, but he spent the entire Dark Knight helping Harvey Dent out so that he could stop being Batman and have a normal life.

Which is typical of any batman story. He's been doing that for years...decades even. Attempting to find a way out. He never does. Rachel tells him that she imagines there'd be a day when the world may not need Batman, but she's not sure there's a day when Bruce won't need Batman...'cause that's who he is. This sort of thing has been going on for a long time beteween Batman and Bruce Wayne. I don't think Nolan is really straying from that dynamic already established in the comics.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-07-24 02:12pm

wautd wrote:b) Look at Joker's thugs.
The fake policeman who shot Gordon didn't looked like a very stable person. Not to mention the guy with his cellphone in his stomach. I'd say the Joker preferred recruiting other fruitcakes

Yeah stud. That WAS The Joker. Of course your point still stands.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-07-24 02:21pm

Vympel wrote:
havokeff wrote:Holy shit. Bale's Batman voice in Begins is NOWHERE near as gruff as it is in TDK, at least when he is just talking and not threating criminals, but even then it's not as bad. And actually, I might like Katie Holmes better then Maggie Gyllenhall.
Maggie Gyllenhall for some reason looks like a young old lady, so it's not surprising.

Maggie's facial structure is a bit odd, but she has far more personality than Katie Holmes does.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2008-07-24 02:29pm

havokeff wrote:
wautd wrote:b) Look at Joker's thugs.
The fake policeman who shot Gordon didn't looked like a very stable person. Not to mention the guy with his cellphone in his stomach. I'd say the Joker preferred recruiting other fruitcakes
Yeah stud. That WAS The Joker

I honestly didn't recognize him

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-07-24 02:30pm

Are you talking about the guy they shot in the leg and questioned? I mean, Ledger was one of the 'fake cops', but he wasn't the one they identified as an escapee from Arkham.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-07-24 02:43pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Vympel wrote:
havokeff wrote:Holy shit. Bale's Batman voice in Begins is NOWHERE near as gruff as it is in TDK, at least when he is just talking and not threating criminals, but even then it's not as bad. And actually, I might like Katie Holmes better then Maggie Gyllenhall.
Maggie Gyllenhall for some reason looks like a young old lady, so it's not surprising.
Maggie's facial structure is a bit odd, but she has far more personality than Katie Holmes does.

Maybe in other movies, but comparing what I saw on screen a couple times now and watching Batman Begins last night, they are at the very least even in the personality department. IMO Holmes is better. She did, like someone already pointed out, have more involvement in the story though, so that might have something to do with it.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2008-07-24 02:53pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Are you talking about the guy they shot in the leg and questioned?

Yeah... that one

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-07-24 03:21pm

wautd wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Are you talking about the guy they shot in the leg and questioned?
Yeah... that one

That was just an escaped mental patient, that wasn't Joker/Ledger. You can spot ledger, though, as the 'cop' w/ facial scars.

The Wench · Post by **The Wench** » 2008-07-24 03:43pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
wautd wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Are you talking about the guy they shot in the leg and questioned?
Yeah... that one
That was just an escaped mental patient, that wasn't Joker/Ledger. You can spot ledger, though, as the 'cop' w/ facial scars.

I have to admit, I invested a lot of man hours resisting this movie because of Ledger just being a guy who wears makeup, which I hated...BUT, this part of the movie, where he's able to somewhat blend in with ordinary people, redeemed my hatred of it. I really liked that part, and although it seemed really simple, Joker's NEVER been able to blend in with real people. I thought this was such a smart scene, and smart of Nolan to differentiate his Joker by allowing him to do something he literally cannot do in a way that was much more integrated than how Burton tried to do it in the first Batman.

JLTucker · Post by **JLTucker** » 2008-07-24 03:54pm

Why did you object to the makeup? Why did you hate it?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-07-24 04:19pm

Joker has disguised himself as an ordinary person before. I know he's done it afew times in the Timm-verse, and I'm pretty sure he has in the comics, too.

The Wench · Post by **The Wench** » 2008-07-24 05:01pm

JLTucker wrote:Why did you object to the makeup? Why did you hate it?

Cause I'm an idealist who's loyal to the comic book Joker. In the comic books, he's not a jerk with make up on his face. He fell in a vat and was bleached that way, which is part of his motivation for attacking Batman in the first place because he blames Batman for doing it to him. So I don't really like that part of Nolan's Joker at all.

The Wench · Post by **The Wench** » 2008-07-24 05:08pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Joker has disguised himself as an ordinary person before. I know he's done it afew times in the Timm-verse, and I'm pretty sure he has in the comics, too.

Timm-verse I can't say I remember that...but he's never really done that in the comics. In the comics, he just won't. I suppose he could if he tried, but he won't. The only time he significantly changed his appearance is when he thought he'd killed Batman and realized he had no purpose as the Joker anymore, so he had plastic surgery to rectify it all and ended up looking like a normal guy. However, when he found out Batman was still alive, he threw himself back in the vat. It's permanent, but over the years he's made it his choice to remain that way. It's a psychological decision knowing that if there's a need for a Batman, there's a need for the Joker. He dresses people up like him before he hides his own face. My feelings are that his being bleached white and looking like a clown aren't just cosmetic and that the deeper psychological significance the Joker gives just to his facial appearance is quite profound.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2008-07-24 05:11pm

The Wench wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Joker has disguised himself as an ordinary person before. I know he's done it afew times in the Timm-verse, and I'm pretty sure he has in the comics, too.
Timm-verse I can't say I remember that...but he's never really done that in the comics. In the comics, he just won't. I suppose he could if he tried, but he won't. The only time he significantly changed his appearance is when he thought he'd killed Batman and realized he had no purpose as the Joker anymore, so he had plastic surgery to rectify it all and ended up looking like a normal guy. However, when he found out Batman was still alive, he threw himself back in the vat. It's permanent, but over the years he's made it his choice to remain that way. It's a psychological decision knowing that if there's a need for a Batman, there's a need for the Joker. He dresses people up like him before he hides his own face. My feelings are that his being bleached white and looking like a clown aren't just cosmetic and that the deeper psychological significance the Joker gives just to his facial appearance is quite profound.

False. The Joker disguises himself while abroad in A Death in the Family.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-07-24 05:15pm

In the episode where Joker is turning comedians into crappy superheroes with the Mad Hatter's brain-chips, the reason behind it is because he got booted from a gong-show-type competition. He was made-up as a normal human while he was competing as 'Shekky Rimshot'.

Also, many incarnations of the Joker in the comics don't have an origin. In 'The Man who Laughs' he didn't.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2008-07-24 05:22pm

Ford Prefect wrote:Well, I saw it last night, and it was good. The film was strongly directed with a current of strong symbolism running through it. Better still was the writing , which elevated this above Batman Begins. This was a very impressively written film; I got really invested in the character of Harvey Dent and everything that Bruce Wayne was investing in him. Even though I avoided pretty much all the promotional material I possibly could for the film, the fact remains that I'm familiar with the franchise, so Dent and his coin immediately said 'Two Face' to me. Which was a pity, because I really wanted Harvey to win. Yeah, blah blah, I believe in Harvey Dent etc.

The Dark Knight pushed for some pretty frightening directions in its writing, and because it does the film is much stronger because of it. Really, watching Bruce have to make some really fucking hard decisions in this film was great (in a rather awful kind of way). The Joker's dilemma and how he saved Dent over Rachel was probably the best part of the film. Seeing how far he was willing to go to protect Gotham was pretty intruiging. The acting helped too.

Have to agree. What made this movie was not the Joker, though he was definetly a crucial piece. But the writing. There was not just a plot, but actual themes that provoke some thinking. Which was really the use of the Joker as a vehicle to make people wonder about it.

The score, as stark said, was awesome. Though like batman begins, I have grave disagreements with the editor over what the concept of a cut is.

The Wench · Post by **The Wench** » 2008-07-24 05:23pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:In the episode where Joker is turning comedians into crappy superheroes with the Mad Hatter's brain-chips, the reason behind it is because he got booted from a gong-show-type competition. He was made-up as a normal human while he was competing as 'Shekky Rimshot'.

i totally forgot about that completely...

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Also, many incarnations of the Joker in the comics don't have an origin. In 'The Man who Laughs' he didn't.

It's not about an origin. My point was that he can't just wipe the makeup off whenever he feels like it. His face is permanently white and that's universal about him in the comics, regardless of who he was before he became Joker. I just like that about him. It's just a personal preference.

The Wench · Post by **The Wench** » 2008-07-24 05:27pm

Publius wrote:
The Wench wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Joker has disguised himself as an ordinary person before. I know he's done it afew times in the Timm-verse, and I'm pretty sure he has in the comics, too.
Timm-verse I can't say I remember that...but he's never really done that in the comics. In the comics, he just won't. I suppose he could if he tried, but he won't. The only time he significantly changed his appearance is when he thought he'd killed Batman and realized he had no purpose as the Joker anymore, so he had plastic surgery to rectify it all and ended up looking like a normal guy. However, when he found out Batman was still alive, he threw himself back in the vat. It's permanent, but over the years he's made it his choice to remain that way. It's a psychological decision knowing that if there's a need for a Batman, there's a need for the Joker. He dresses people up like him before he hides his own face. My feelings are that his being bleached white and looking like a clown aren't just cosmetic and that the deeper psychological significance the Joker gives just to his facial appearance is quite profound.
False. The Joker disguises himself while abroad in A Death in the Family.

I thought he was just wearing foreign garb as a diplomat and then revealed himself as the Joker during his acceptance speech? He didn't have much reason to hide. He had diplomatic immunity from prosecution by then.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2008-07-24 05:28pm

The Wench wrote:It's not about an origin. My point was that he can't just wipe the makeup off whenever he feels like it. His face is permanently white and that's universal about him in the comics, regardless of who he was before he became Joker. I just like that about him. It's just a personal preference.

Well, it's not like the TDK Joker isn't permanently disfigured. His odd coloring may not be indelible, but those scars aren't going anywhere.

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2008-07-24 06:11pm

wautd wrote:Ok, saw it last night. I missed the part between where the Joker talks to Harvey Dent in the clinic untill the Joker blows up the hospital (I had to take a leak real bad). What did I miss? Anything important?

Ha. That happened to me too. I had one of those damn giant theater drinks and had to hold in a massive leak for half the movie. Only part about it being 2 and a half hours that I didn't like.