Akalabeth wrote:I think the relatively little combat the angels have seen is also going to make the upcoming changes a lot harder to face. The baldricks aweful experiences with human weaponry (emphasis on awe) seems to have given them a strange sort of hero-worship attitude towards the humans. Maybe that's not quite the right word, but they want to emulate us pretty bad, and given how hellish demonic society was, most of the remaining demons have probably had their quality of life improve a tiny bit. Heaven seems like a relatively more comfortable place for the angels, and the vast majority haven't really had their inferiority to modern humans really shown in such an aggressive manner. Maybe if enough nuke survivors make it back and enough angels get to see the long term effects there, but I doubt that'll be enough to drive the point home. What the angels would probably need are some more nukes, or conventional bombing runs on the Eternal City, or something, to let war-weariness set in. If only they had factories making tanks or something so we'd have some reason to bomb them
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That's going to be a problem, and given the speed, and willingness to deploy everything they have, that the Human forces have right now, it's likely to be a very quick battle. Which means that Angels might not get the chance to learn just how scary humanity can be.
Even Michael has this problem. He knows in his head that humanity will wipe the floor with them, but he doesn't really feel it in his heart like Abigor does. You can see it in how he behaves around humans, he still sees the ones in his club as his property, he sees the people he's been dealing with as annoying because he's having to be nice to humans, he just doesn't 'feel the fear'. You get the same thing in the people working for them too.
He still views humanity as a tool he can use to an extent. Oh, he may tell himself that he's doing all this because the humans are going to win regardless, and he should do everything he can to make sure the angelic population, if not the society, survives the war, but deep down in his heart, emotionally he still views us as a bunch of uppity talking chimps with some cute ideas. His attitude towards us is, when it comes down to it, caution, a touch of respect, and a hell of a lot of condescension, and I'm not sure how well he'll hide that in a) his direct interactions with the human forces when, assuming he survives, it comes time to try and work out a deal, and b) his planning and behavior. And that could get him, and his people, into trouble.
Abigor comes across as a leader (he was as much a feudal lord as he was a general) who's trying to do whats best for his people. In part he's working with the humans because he knows the'll crush him like a bug if he doesn't, but deeper than that, he, I feel, genuinely respects them. He sees the human life-style as one that's better for all involved then the current demon life-style, and is working to improve the lot of his people (and by extension himself) in what's often a fairly statesmanlike kind of way. I'm assuming he'll be wanting to keep some demonic cultural traditions (though frankly, we don't know a lot about pre-invasion demonic culture except as it related directly to the top ranks, or how they dealt with humanity) if he thinks they are good ones, but largely his long term goal seems to be to learn everything he can off humanity, especially their cultural traditions, and use them. Maybe some day he'll be a threat to us again, but that will probably be more like a conflict between two modern day countries, not a 'we're taking over because we're just better than you and deserve to be in charge'. You tend to see that in the demons too, they got
broken by the war, and it was probably for the best in the long run. (And there is me being pretty damn condescending, but still.)
Michael comes across as mob-boss who's trying to do what's best for his people. He seems to see the problem with angelic society to be Yahwah, not the society itself. He can describe the situation in the club as one of "saving them from a worse fate" (which he
has, let's not be wrong here), but he still treats the humans in his club as property he can just use as he pleases. Oh, he's a very nice slave-master, and works by talking them into an idea, rather than just ordering them to do it, but in his head he's pissed off that he's having to be nice to them. I think he respects humanity as a group, but I don't think he currently (and might not ever) respects any individual humans, they are just too far below him for him to see why a single human could, in some way, be important I think. And with a few exceptions (those that have been healed or seen a close friend being healed up after the camp) I can't help but think that's going to be the typical angelic viewpoint on them, without the respect for humanity as a whole. If the human victory over Heaven goes too fast and too well, then the angels won't be broken by it in the same way the demons were, which means in the long run, they won't learn the kind of harsh lessons they need to, or if they do, it will take a lot longer, and they'll be learning them from a much less sympathetic humanity.
Lamuel is probably the best Abigor style potential leader they have. He's got reasons to feel indebted to individual humans, and he's not taking that too badly, he's even starting to see demons, or at least a demon, in a new light as well. He's one of the few angels that's ever apologized to a human and really meant it. I think his relationship with Maion might still have problems in the long run, but I think he has real potential to be the kind of leader the Angels need. However the Angels themselves won't be even close to accepting that somebody like him would be capable of ruling them, unless a) they get curb-stomped by the humans (sad to say, the nuclear initiation is probably not going to do it by itself, too far away, to 'second hand information', not like the siege of Dis was, the total destruction of Satan's palace, Satan himself having to go into hiding, etc), and b) the other potential leaders (pretty much everyone in Michael's rank for a start) are eliminated, or very publicly supporting him (which seems less likely than them all getting killed). I think, in the long run, Michael would make quite a bad leader, he's picked up too many bad habits off us (see: Mob Boss), though I could see him, unlike any of the others, being willing to stand aside and support Lamuel (and that might even be what he's setting up Lamuel for, and he's probably the one person that could put together a plan that could have the bulk of angelic society going along with it), though that would be either a) so he can rule from behind the scenes (potentially bad), or b) just shift to running the Heaven Underworld he's been setting up (potentially not too bad ... crime is going to happen, and horrible as he can be, he's still better than crime lords we've had ourselves).
Akalabeth wrote:I wonder, are there angels with similar conditions to the baldricks in the areas surrounding Dis? They seemed pretty happy to hear about Satan getting killed. It'll be interesting to hear the point of view of the lower class angels and baldricks of human occupied Heaven/Hell, but that'll probably need to wait until Lords of War.
It's possible, after all, the angels do seem to have a basically human mentality, under their thick layers of a very non-human upbringing and social conditioning (much like the demons in fact), so it does seem quite plausible that a lot of lower ranked angels (which do make up the vast bulk of their population) aren't entirely happy with being locked in their current position as menial (less so then humans, but still) servants for all of eternity.
As I've said elsewhere, regardless of anything else, angelic society is likely to fragment under what's coming their way, and that's going to be quite bad for a lot of them in the short run, and might be the saving of them in the long run, if they do manage to learn from it. (I'll admit, I'm bigoted enough to think that current human society, at least large chunks of it, is better in the long run than what they have now).
-- Brett, who's kind of disturbed by how long this got.
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), and given my predicted damage that's likely to happen to angelic society, you could see something like that happening.
Same applies with demons too ... Luga doesn't seem the marrying type, but it might make sense to another succubus. I expect it would be less of an issue if Drippy found some compatible second-life human, because they'll probably be Roman, and he's already (I assume) considered a Roman (if not yet a citizen ... we don't know if he owns land or not).