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In the original film he said "I reprogrammed it so it was possible to win the test". But that didn't really prepare us for the sheer level of brazenness he demonstrated in the new movie.

Yeah, I would've liked seeing something more subtle. "Reprogramming the conditions" always sounded to me like he tweaked the odds in his favour, not just built in an "I win" buttin.

Bounty wrote:Yeah, I would've liked seeing something more subtle. "Reprogramming the conditions" always sounded to me like he tweaked the odds in his favour, not just built in an "I win" buttin.

I agree. It would have been more impressive had he actually just re-programmed the test so it was possible to rescue the ship (like he stated in WOK). He could have then shown us that he was a capable starship captain by destroying those Klingon cruisers without making them possible to kill with a one shot.

It's entirely possible that he could have won the scenario by simply making it fair. Instead, he made it grossly unfair the other way, and then basically rubbed his supervisors' noses in it with his behaviour.

That would have bolstered his defense if they figured out what happened before he was assigned. He could have argued that he found unrealistic elements in the simulation and corrected them.

It seems like they were trying to add comedy to that scene, but failed to realize that the KM scenario was one of Kirks' defining moments as a great starship captain. Certainly one of the failings of this movie. However, I still think this movie is a huge step in the right direction. Now, they just need to refine their methods and become more familiar with Star Trek.

Darth Wong wrote:In the original film he said "I reprogrammed it so it was possible to win the test". But that didn't really prepare us for the sheer level of brazenness he demonstrated in the new movie.

I know I'm late to this, but...

To me, the whole thing was a prank. Kirk was playing a practical joke. The very moment the scenario begins it's obvious he's not at all taking it serious, and there is no way in HELL he would have thought that he'd get away with it. I mean, not only was the cheat blatant in effect, the tests computers even glitched most heinously for a second or so before Kirk kicked the Klingon's behinds. He never had any intention of this being taken seriously. If he had, he would not have been so obvious about it. All he did was pull everyone's leg. Not just the examinators, but also the people in there with him.

Now he certainly did cheat, but only someone with a stick up his behind couldn't see that Kirk was having a laugh. But once Spock lodged a formal complaint, the academy had no choise but to act upon it, and follow rules. Presumably these include suspension until the whole thing is over.
It's quite likely that if the proceedings had not been interrupted, Kirk would have pointed all of this out, and have given Spock a hard time about not being able to spot an obvious joke.

It's disappointing compared to him being a really smart guy and subtly circumventing the test, but all the same I had a good laugh at the scene, which presumably is what JJ was going for.

^ I must say, I've seen the movie three times and every time Kirk's line "Yeah, don't worry about it" gets a laugh. From me as well, though the "finger-shooting" is a little farther than I would have taken the joke.

I don't find military training a good scenario for having a laugh. He retook the tests because he's pathologically unable to deal with failure, then he broke the simulation to be a big man, and he thought he'd get away with it. Unable to learn + character flaw + damaging academy property = promotion?

Clearly, the best candidate for starship commander! I think it's sad that people honestly think his conduct is acceptable, even in a university let alone a military training facility, let alone for someone who's supposed to be a genius with COMMAND APDITUDE.

That said, this is clearly the fratboy attitude Abrams expected from his audience, the ROFFLE GOOD JOKE KIRK response. If only those squares at the Academy would loosen up and learn how to really jive!

Stark wrote:I don't find military training a good scenario for having a laugh. He retook the tests because he's pathologically unable to deal with failure, then he broke the simulation to be a big man, and he thought he'd get away with it. Unable to learn + character flaw + damaging academy property = promotion?

Actually, you forgot to add saving the entire Federation to your equation. Though I agree that he shouldn't have been given the XO position like he did nor should he have been given command of the Enterprise.

Stark wrote:I don't find military training a good scenario for having a laugh. He retook the tests because he's pathologically unable to deal with failure, then he broke the simulation to be a big man, and he thought he'd get away with it. Unable to learn + character flaw + damaging academy property = promotion?

I'm sorry, did we see the same movie?
I just pointed out that there was no way at all that he'd get away with doing what he did, and that it didn't look as if he'd even tried. If there is a character flaw here it's that he thinks that he can use university property for practical jokes, not that he is ZOMG! Unable to deal with FAILURE!

Clearly, the best candidate for starship commander! I think it's sad that people honestly think his conduct is acceptable, even in a university let alone a military training facility, let alone for someone who's supposed to be a genius with COMMAND APDITUDE.

That said, this is clearly the fratboy attitude Abrams expected from his audience, the ROFFLE GOOD JOKE KIRK response. If only those squares at the Academy would loosen up and learn how to really jive!

Yeah, this explanation of yours would work if it wasn't so obvious that all he did was have a laugh. He WASN'T trying to win. For all we know he did excellently in his first two tests.
Now before you blow a fuse, I'm NOT saying that what he did was right. He certainly should have recieved some kind of punishment. Uni and/or Military Academy is not the place to joke around, and certainly not with the machinery of an official test.
But you're basically being Spock here, all officious and ramrod straight, "how DARE kirk cheat to win, he should be EXPELLED!", while it is obvious that winning was not what he was going for. If he had cheated like this and gone for winning as the end goal, then he should have been kicked out, no question. But you cannot possibly look at that scene and conclude that he was being serious about it.

Atlan wrote:Now he certainly did cheat, but only someone with a stick up his behind couldn't see that Kirk was having a laugh.

Since when does "I'm just having a laugh" constitute a valid justification for:

A) Breaking and entering into a government computer system
B) E-Vandalism
C) Wasting simulator time and the time of more than a dozen people for what is essentially a personal prank

Please explain this to me, jackass.

Darth Wong wrote:

Atlan wrote:Now he certainly did cheat, but only someone with a stick up his behind couldn't see that Kirk was having a laugh.

Since when does "I'm just having a laugh" constitute a valid justification for:

A) Breaking and entering into a government computer system
B) E-Vandalism
C) Wasting simulator time and the time of more than a dozen people for what is essentially a personal prank

Please explain this to me, jackass.

I never said that it is a valid justification for the above.

I pointed out that the accusation of academic cheating is unjust.

Atlan wrote:I never said that it is a valid justification for the above.

I pointed out that the accusation of academic cheating is unjust.

So if you cheat but you make a big joke out of it all, then you're not cheating? Precisely what definition of "cheating" do you use?

Kamakazie Sith wrote:

Stark wrote:I don't find military training a good scenario for having a laugh. He retook the tests because he's pathologically unable to deal with failure, then he broke the simulation to be a big man, and he thought he'd get away with it. Unable to learn + character flaw + damaging academy property = promotion?

Actually, you forgot to add saving the entire Federation to your equation. Though I agree that he shouldn't have been given the XO position like he did nor should he have been given command of the Enterprise.

You're right, that act based entirely on plot magic and not Kirks inane 'must get killed' plan deserves skippin a decade of experience and traing and not . . . A medal.

Stark wrote:

Kamakazie Sith wrote:

Stark wrote:I don't find military training a good scenario for having a laugh. He retook the tests because he's pathologically unable to deal with failure, then he broke the simulation to be a big man, and he thought he'd get away with it. Unable to learn + character flaw + damaging academy property = promotion?

Actually, you forgot to add saving the entire Federation to your equation. Though I agree that he shouldn't have been given the XO position like he did nor should he have been given command of the Enterprise.

You're right, that act based entirely on plot magic and not Kirks inane 'must get killed' plan deserves skippin a decade of experience and traing and not . . . A medal.

Are you retarded?

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Are you retarded?

Is 'he deserved a promotion to captain because he was involved in saving the Federation' not your argument? If it is, it's stupid and 'are you retarded' is not a defence of it. Next time he saves the Federation, they'll have to make him Fleet Admiral at 25! JUST LIKE IN REAL LIFE.

Oh wait, medals!

Stark wrote:

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Are you retarded?

Is 'he deserved a promotion to captain because he was involved in saving the Federation' not your argument? If it is, it's stupid and 'are you retarded' is not a defence of it. Next time he saves the Federation, they'll have to make him Fleet Admiral at 25! JUST LIKE IN REAL LIFE.

Oh wait, medals!

So, you are retarded or maybe you have a blind spot. Have you checked your vision recently?

Kamakazie Sith wrote:

Stark wrote:

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Are you retarded?

Is 'he deserved a promotion to captain because he was involved in saving the Federation' not your argument? If it is, it's stupid and 'are you retarded' is not a defence of it. Next time he saves the Federation, they'll have to make him Fleet Admiral at 25! JUST LIKE IN REAL LIFE.

Oh wait, medals!

So, you are retarded or maybe you have a blind spot. Have you checked your vision recently?

Maybe you haven't checked recently, but repeatedly ignoring someone's argument is against the rules. Your argument is that he saved the Federation, therefore he should be promoted to Captain. He is calling this out as a non sequitur, and your response is to ask why he ignored it. He did not ignore it; he is simply disputing the logic of it. You appear to be ignoring his argument.

Kamakazie Sith wrote:So, you are retarded or maybe you have a blind spot. Have you checked your vision recently?

Sorry buddy, saying 'he shouldn't have been etc etc' doesn't mean you didn't suggest it. I'm tired of lamers with the Abramsesque attitude that single success = get whatever you want and I'm going to be trolled every time anyone mentions it.

I'm glad you have no communication skills and get so butthurt when you're irrelevant snipe gets responded to, though.

Oops. Sorry Mike, I jumped the gun. In his post KS says he doesn't agree with the response in movie and points out that I left 'saved world' off my plot progression.

His wording is pretty vague. He seems to be saying that he only disagrees with Pike's decision to make him XO, from which he became captain. If he disagrees with all of Starfleet's decision-making in this instance, then I have to assume that he is just being a nitpicker rather than having an actual point to make, which is not a particularly favoured behaviour either.

Darth Wong wrote:His wording is pretty vague. He seems to be saying that he only disagrees with Pike's decision to make him XO, from which he became captain. If he disagrees with all of Starfleet's decision-making in this instance, then I have to assume that he is just being a nitpicker rather than having an actual point to make, which is not a particularly favoured behaviour either.

I disagree. It's not vague at all. I said this "Actually, you forgot to add saving the entire Federation to your equation. Though I agree that he shouldn't have been given the XO position like he did nor should he have been given command of the Enterprise."

Specifically, "I agree that he shouldn't have been given the XO position like he did nor should he have been given command of the Enterprise". If that's vague then why is it vague?

Furthermore, Starks' equation made Kirk pretty deserving of being kicked out of Starfleet forever. However, when you consider the entire picture it is much more understandable why Kirk was allowed to stay in Starfleet. I reiterate though that it does not make Kirk deserving of a command or even an XO position. He has a lot of growing up to do because of the KM incident...hell even if the KM incident never happened he still wouldn't deserve being placed in those two positions.

I am guilty of acting like a jackass though. I apologize to Stark and you for wasting time.

Kobayashi Maru really needed to be left out of this film. It worked once, as a set-up for the personal tragedy Admiral Kirk would face in TWOK. It should been buried with TWOK. But if it had to be a part of this film, it should have been as Kirk expressing a protest over the scenario through his monkeying with it (making it fairer to make success possible, not installing God-Mode Cheat™ and making the thing a cheap prank) and later, as part of his defence, pointing out how illogical and unrealistic the scenario is and therefore meaningless as a training or evaluation exercise of any sort. When Spock tries pointing out at the hearing how the whole point of the exercise is to acquaint cadets with facing fear and death which Kirk undermined, have Kirk rebutting that by saying, point-blank, "That's something you can only face Out There; not in some damn simulator where you KNOW it's not real and the game is rigged."

Have the film then fade to "Three Years Later", after Kirk's been a serving lieutenant in Starfleet and coming to the Enterprise when the scramble to Vulcan is taking place. Show him boarding the ship with split-second flashbacks to "the Farragut Disaster," which he survived but from which he still suffers some lingering trauma. Would have made Kirk a far more grounded character and wouldn't have taken all that much additional screen-time. One of the earlier fluff scenes could have been dropped to accommodate it if run-time was critical to the final cut of the movie.

Patrick Degan wrote:Kobayashi Maru really needed to be left out of this film. It worked once, as a set-up for the personal tragedy Admiral Kirk would face in TWOK. It should been buried with TWOK. But if it had to be a part of this film, it should have been as Kirk expressing a protest over the scenario through his monkeying with it (making it fairer to make success possible, not installing God-Mode Cheat™ and making the thing a cheap prank) and later, as part of his defence, pointing out how illogical and unrealistic the scenario is and therefore meaningless as a training or evaluation exercise of any sort. When Spock tries pointing out at the hearing how the whole point of the exercise is to acquaint cadets with facing fear and death which Kirk undermined, have Kirk rebutting that by saying, point-blank, "That's something you can only face Out There; not in some damn simulator where you KNOW it's not real and the game is rigged."

Have the film then fade to "Three Years Later", after Kirk's been a serving lieutenant in Starfleet and coming to the Enterprise when the scramble to Vulcan is taking place. Show him boarding the ship with split-second flashbacks to "the Farragut Disaster," which he survived but from which he still suffers some lingering trauma. Would have made Kirk a far more grounded character and wouldn't have taken all that much additional screen-time. One of the earlier fluff scenes could have been dropped to accommodate it if run-time was critical to the final cut of the movie.

And with being on the command track and being on the bridge crew, he could potentially be in line for captains seat given incapacitation of others. That would be something like 5 minutes more screen time, maybe 10. It would also tidy up a lot of loose ends.

It'd even just be a single line really; 'There's no way I'm joining Starfleet unless it's to become a leader as soon as I can', which even plays into his later hysterical attempts to retain command.

Hell, even better direction in the scene with Pike in the bar could have commucniated that Kirk was primairily motivated by the 'own ship in eight' line.

Darth Wong wrote:

Atlan wrote:I never said that it is a valid justification for the above.

I pointed out that the accusation of academic cheating is unjust.

So if you cheat but you make a big joke out of it all, then you're not cheating? Precisely what definition of "cheating" do you use?

He never had the intent to pass the test for any sort of academic credit?

Since he made his cheating so blatantly *obvious* it seems extremely unlikely he thought he'd get away with it, and if he knew he wasn't going to do this unnoticed he did it because he wanted attention drawn to the test being unwinnable. So yes, he "cheated", but not with the intent of getting any sort of personal gain out of it.

If he'd sabotaged a compulsory test and tried to cover his tracks; yes, that would have been ground for severe disciplinary action. And he should still be in trouble for hacking the simulator. But as a formal charge, I doubt cheating would have stood up very long.