Gen. Pace calls homosexuality immoral

[AniThyng]

Even this board has very harsh rules against males showing undue/unwanted interest in females, I don't see how it is necessarily unreasonable to afford the same level of privacy to males who are being "sexually harrassed" by other males.

Of course, a reasonable standard for what is and is not harrassment ought to be the case, and I think it's already been noted that other militaries apply such reasonable standards.

[Rye]

Even this board has very harsh rules against males showing undue/unwanted interest in females, I don't see how it is necessarily unreasonable to afford the same level of privacy to males who are being "sexually harrassed" by other males.

Of course, a reasonable standard for what is and is not harrassment ought to be the case, and I think it's already been noted that other militaries apply such reasonable standards.

When people go into the army, they must know they'll be showering with other guys. If they are mentally unprepared for the possibility of one of them finding them attractive, they should just not sign up. I mean, on here, for instance, if people don't want the chance of someone finding their picture attractive, they should not post it. Of course, this doesn't mean that people trying to take it further when they've been knocked back should be tolerated.

It makes me laugh that these people are trained to stick bayonets into people as well as be prepared to grenade them or shoot them to pieces, but what REALLY bothers them is someone finding them sexually attractive.

[Darth Wong]

Even this board has very harsh rules against males showing undue/unwanted interest in females, I don't see how it is necessarily unreasonable to afford the same level of privacy to males who are being "sexually harrassed" by other males.

The problem is that Kamikazie Sith won't even wait to be harassed. There is no Tailhook scandal, no obvious series of large-scale precedents showing that abuse is virtually inevitable or would even happen at all. Instead, he wants gays removed from his presence because of the mere possibility that he might be harassed.

[Kane Starkiller]

Another question is what would separation of gays solve. I mean a gay person showering and minding his own business could still be a target of unwanted sexual desire by another gay in the room just like any heterosexual.

[CaptJodan]

There is no Tailhook scandal, no obvious series of large-scale precedents showing that abuse is virtually inevitable or would even happen at all. Instead, he wants gays removed from his presence because of the mere possibility that he might be harassed.

What I get from what he's saying is that his opinion is even more odd than that. Ultimately, it might boil down to what you're saying. What he's claiming (from what I can tell) is that he's just fine and dandy with the DADT policy, but open gayness is where he draws the line.

He doesn't realize or care that he might be checked out in the shower under a closeted gay soldier, because what he doesn't know doesn't matter. But if he knows Private Johnson is gay, it seems to me he will automatically infer that that soldier is going to check him out at the first opportunity in the shower, strike a boner, and make him uncomfortable. Nevermind that it's likely he or other soldiers have showered with closeted gays in the past with the capacity to be diciplined enough and smart enough to control these types of responses.

I honestly fail to see how repealing the policy would suddenly open the flood gates to the gays actively panting and drolling over guys they see in the shower. If anything, I'd suspect that the majority would choose to remain as closeted as possible because the stigma would still be attached for at least several years after the policy was lifted. If you had openly gay soldiers serving, you may even get those who would be looking for any sign of gayness cast their way to try and prosecute them out of the military.

I also can't understand why Sith supports DADT at all. Whether the gay man serving in the military is out or not, he's still in danger of being checked out. It seems logically inconsistant to me.

[Vendetta]

I don't think logical consistency is high on the Kamikaze agenda. It seems to be the fear that openly gay people can shoot rainbow gay-beams from their eyes in the showers, right into straight boy asses.

[Patrick Degan]

Even this board has very harsh rules against males showing undue/unwanted interest in females, I don't see how it is necessarily unreasonable to afford the same level of privacy to males who are being "sexually harrassed" by other males.

Of course, a reasonable standard for what is and is not harrassment ought to be the case, and I think it's already been noted that other militaries apply such reasonable standards.

The difference is between an act and the mere possibility of an act. Mr. Kamikaze's problem is that he wants special protection against the latter, and that is wholly unreasonable by any stretch of the imagination.

[Gustav32Vasa]

I don't think logical consistency is high on the Kamikaze agenda. It seems to be the fear that openly gay people can shoot rainbow gay-beams from their eyes in the showers, right into straight boy asses.

No, no. The rainbow gay-beams comes from the ears not eyes.

I think its strange that he thinks its immoral for two of the same sex to love eachothers but to have a job that involves killing another human isnt?

[Surlethe]

Even this board has very harsh rules against males showing undue/unwanted interest in females, I don't see how it is necessarily unreasonable to afford the same level of privacy to males who are being "sexually harrassed" by other males.

Let's carry your analogy as far as it goes with respect to the situation. Sure, the board has very harsh rules against males showing undue/unwanted interest in females, and for good reason. So far, there's been no problem that I know of with male-on-male sexual harassment, but don't you think that if some member of GALE Force snapped and started stalking another male member by PM, asking for pictures, and generally being a perverted asshole, he'd be banned with the same prejudice a man stalking a woman would be?

However, we still permit openly gay and bisexual men and women to join the board, just like we permit openly heterosexual men and women to join; the mere potential of stalking or sexual harassment is certainly not enough to completely ban gays from the board, just like it's not enough to completely ban single straight men from the board.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Well, this sort of blew up a little.

In response to Kamikazie's question of if I would tolerate a sister and/or daughter functioning under these circumstances?

Yes, you fucking twat.

I have, and will continue to. I know my sister has gotten naked in front of other people, and I know it will happen again. There have been times where my sister and I have *had* to change in the same room because we were doing a theatre-performance together and time to move to seperate rooms was a luxury we couldn't afford. I understand that she's a big girl and she can take care of herself.

If people are going to be gawping at her body...fine, they can fucking gawp. They'd probably do so if she were clothed as well. If they try to take it beyond mere gawping without her permission, I'll fucking make them regret they ever had genitalia and hormones, if she doesn't do that first.

I've lived in the US my whole life. I've spent a total of about four weeks outside the country. But one thing I've learned is apparently as far as sexual maturity goes, I'm the exception to the rule here.

Honestly you warped, victorian-minded little twits, what the fuck is wrong with you? How the hell can this first-world nation I live in be overwhelmingly filled with people whose view of sexuality is closer to a 3rd world Muslim shithole than it is to European first world countries? I say this to my own goddamn country: Grow the fuck up you childish little prats. Actual mature people are trying to survive here too.

[dragon]

Theres nothing wrong with being undressed in front of other people, but I know us americans have serious issues with it. I mean the europeans have coed nude saunas and during a military trip to france we ended up showering with both sexes, think scene from Starship troopers. Here in Germany I have met several gays openly serving in the German military. And don't forget some of the best militaries in the world ie. the Spartans had no such qualms.

It all depends on your upbringing for most Americans sex and the body is taboo but violence is glamorized. And for all these people using the bible as a basis, well it also says killing is a deadly sin and how many religious people violate it yet people like this general don't find it immoral to kill.

[The Yosemite Bear]

wait several pages ago, I mentioned that the first western militaries, had gays and bisexuals in them.

[dragon]

wait several pages ago, I mentioned that the first western militaries, had gays and bisexuals in them.

Hum yeah think so. But then 12 plus pages of arguments are a lot to keep track of who said what.

[The Yosemite Bear]

hmmm wonder which would look better for a tee "Gays in the military, this is not madness this is SPARTA!" or "When US Generals say that gays can't fit into a western military structure, you wonder how the managed to pass basic military history without hearing about Alexander."


edit should I put General Pace along with Colin Powell on my list of people I need to send a copy of "Revolt in the Desert" and a decent biography of Alex of Macedonia too?

[Enforcer Talen]

hmmm wonder which would look better for a tee "Gays in the military, this is not madness this is SPARTA!" or "When US Generals say that gays can't fit into a western military structure, you wonder how the managed to pass basic military history without hearing about Alexander."

Id want to see the flash of that, with the Persian saying General Pace's line, followed by the Spartan King saying his line.

I think it would be shnazzy.

[Ender]

You guys are running away to your own private little corner of the forum? Are you kidding?

I never thought I'd see this level of downright retardation on this forum from people who weren't already well on their way to the gallows. This is from longtime respected members, too. Seriously, this is fucked up on a staggering level.

Oh fuck off. There is a whole HELL of a lot more shit going on here then you have any right to even try and inquire about.

[Darth Raptor]

hmmm wonder which would look better for a tee "Gays in the military, this is not madness this is SPARTA!" or "When US Generals say that gays can't fit into a western military structure, you wonder how the managed to pass basic military history without hearing about Alexander."

While Western Civilization has always been the best, it wasn't inerrant until Jesus came along.

[Flagg]

You guys are running away to your own private little corner of the forum? Are you kidding?

I never thought I'd see this level of downright retardation on this forum from people who weren't already well on their way to the gallows. This is from longtime respected members, too. Seriously, this is fucked up on a staggering level.

Oh fuck off. There is a whole HELL of a lot more shit going on here then you have any right to even try and inquire about.

Fuck off yourself, asshole. I see a bunch of idiots doing exactly the type of stupid shit that get's people tossed out of here and the second things get a little hot they all run away and hide in their private little forum. The word for that is "cowardly".

I have a right to comment about what I'm seeing. If there is a bunch of other shit going on behind the scenes, it's of no fucking concern to me. I couldn't give less of a shit about what your little group does in it's clubhouse. You can take your little attempt at intimidation and shove it right up your ass.

[weemadando]

Where in the HELL are you getting this blatant bullfuckery? How the fuck are you being oppressed if some guy takes a liking to you, shower or no shower (i.e. context does fuckall in this scenario)? I'll bet 99% of the time you wouldn't even know you're being checked out by a guy, even if he's naked.

This reminds me perfectly of an argument trotted out by a gay friend about the whole "oh, gay dude, better put your arse against the wall" mentality. His comment: "What makes you think that he finds YOU attractive anyway?"

This immature "oh noes - the gayes are looking at my bits" thing is ridiculous. Have you never shared a fucking change room with anyone else before?

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Where in the HELL are you getting this blatant bullfuckery? How the fuck are you being oppressed if some guy takes a liking to you, shower or no shower (i.e. context does fuckall in this scenario)? I'll bet 99% of the time you wouldn't even know you're being checked out by a guy, even if he's naked.

This reminds me perfectly of an argument trotted out by a gay friend about the whole "oh, gay dude, better put your arse against the wall" mentality. His comment: "What makes you think that he finds YOU attractive anyway?"

This immature "oh noes - the gayes are looking at my bits" thing is ridiculous. Have you never shared a fucking change room with anyone else before?

Precisely; I've seen firsthand a strong correlation between an individual's level of bigotry and his or her sheer physical ugliness. In other words, ugly in face, ugly in soul. I've never had an attractive guy go past simple jokes and poking fun, but I've had unattractive people attempt violence against me; again, with progressively uglier ones being quicker to use higher levels of force.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I used to catch hell for being friends with one guy in school, it was clear he was feminine in every freaking way. IT wasn't until after highschool that he was able to get away and become who "she" really was. And yes it was the hetero "Jabbas" that gave him the hardest time. (Can't wait to see the reaction She'll get at our next reunion)

[brianeyci]

His comment: "What makes you think that he finds YOU attractive anyway?"

The answer is simple. They're not afraid that gays find them attractive, oh no. They're afraid gays are checking them out like they're checking out women, giving them a score from one to ten and it makes them feel uncomfortable. Face it: guys check out every hunk of meat they come across, and unless it's got body hair in the wrong places or 200 lbs overweight we'd fuck it. If it's got boobs, an hourglass shape and isn't too old, we feel like fucking it. Stupid hetero guys assume gays think the same way, but more importantly they're afraid of being treated how they treat women, afraid of being checked out and put down and degraded as a hunk of flesh. It's sexual insecurity. I've accepted that I'll be sexually assessing with my instincts if not my brain every woman I come across, looks like they think it's a terrible thing and if a gay man treats them that way, oh noes it's SEXUAL HARASSMENT.

[The Yosemite Bear]

note: This reminds me of the whole bit in journelism long before Matthew Shepard, how we had a cop talking to us journelism students about how the most vicious and violoent murders he had seen involved rednecks and a gay guy just minding his own business at a bar.

[AniThyng]

Stupid hetero guys assume gays think the same way,

I'm genuinely curious -> so basically gay guys are appearently much more capable then heterosexual men of surpressing the urge to check out people sexually?

Don't take this the wrong way, but i keep on seeing this "straight guys assume that gay guys treat looking at other guys like straight guys look at women", so why exactly is this assumption wrong? are gay people more capable if supressing the instinct now or what

[Pint0 Xtreme]

I'm genuinely curious -> so basically gay guys are appearently much more capable then heterosexual men of surpressing the urge to check out people sexually?

Don't take this the wrong way, but i keep on seeing this "straight guys assume that gay guys treat looking at other guys like straight guys look at women", so why exactly is this assumption wrong? are gay people more capable if supressing the instinct now or what

It entirely depends on the situation, environment and person. Generally speaking, gay guys will show more restraint because of the social stigma and homophobia that surrounds the concept of a guy checking out another guy. Most out and open gay men in a non-threatening environment will probably check out other men similar to their straight counterparts.