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Sute wrote:

Stuart wrote:"Yes, bad news is Uriel got away from us. Michael-Lan-Yahweh again, he did a combat pick-up and got Uriel out. But, we have some recordings of that portal as well. If we can get a second batch of readings, we might be able to move."

Wait, how did they know it was Michael who saved Uriel? Did they compare pictures received from the junta with recordings from the action in California? The impression I got from that scene was that it was shortly after both those events occurred, so it seems odd that they'd be so confident it was Michael if that was how they did it.

A demon could have identified him. He was obviously a powerful angel, and a logical first step would be to take any footage we have of him, e-mail it to Abigor, and ask "have you seen this person?"

...Yeah, Abigor probably doesn't have an e-mail account. Bet someone with a printer within walking distance of him does, though.

Poor, innocent succubus? Ah, Luga. You and your wacky little hormones.

Also, I like how the trial went, personally. It's great that, even in the midst of a cosmological war, we don't flout the laws that define our civilizations just because we think they're "too troublesome" to bother with.

Hm, although, the fact Uriel got away is kind of too bad. After all he's killed, and after being cornered like that, it has to be massively infuriating for him to be rescued via Micheal Ex Machina just before the final blow. Then again, his survival does throw yet another wrench into Mikey's machinations, and there was some data gleaned from his forced porting in to rescue Uriel.

Oh, and was that a little "Elvis isn't dead" gag right there? Or at least, Elvis may not be in Hell or Heaven? If so, then my personal theory is that it was one of them Norse Gods that did it. Specifically, Val Hallen, Viking God of Rock. =P

And, Bayonet, stop trying to hijack the thread just to dump your politics on us. This ain't the place for you to go soapboxing, and it's fucking annoying like an unwarranted sermon is annoying.

Simon_Jester wrote: ...Yeah, Abigor probably doesn't have an e-mail account. Bet someone with a printer within walking distance of him does, though.

Well, I dunno, he was given a DVD player in the first book. Okay, maybe he won't have a PC since Hell has no Net connection so far. However, it's not much of a stretch for him to have been given a fax machine or something since, IIRC, Hell does already have a workable telecom network for government and military use.

I love the fact that one of the people hunting Uriel remarked on Michael's hotness. Reminds me of the fanbase for Prince Nuada from Hellboy II.

Actually, there's a scary thought. Teenage girls having posters of Michael because they like the badboys. The guys already have the succubus, is this what the girls get?

Or do they already have posters of Abigor on their walls?

Yes, I always bring up the most non-relevant part of the story, why do you ask?

Seriously though, I can't wait to see Yahweh's conversation with Uriel and Michael in his throne room. Course, that's assuming Uriel survives Michael's hospitality to the throne room.

Simon_Jester wrote:He was obviously a powerful angel, and a logical first step would be to take any footage we have of him, e-mail it to Abigor, and ask "have you seen this person?"

[email protected]

I like it.

But yeah, that probably needs a lantern hung on it in the text somewhere explaining that.

Something does occur to me. The judge described Luga as a poor innocent Succubus being used by the FBI in his statement after swimming up to his eyeballs in her pheromones, despite the fact that she openly admitted to independently accessing Branch's mind and psychically inducing the experience of ripping open her clothing, handling her breast, and the threat that she was going to bite it off.

The obvious question should be whether or not Succubi should be allowed to appear in person in court or rather special circumstances should require all Succubi to testify by video phone when required by the court. I'm willing to bet the legal justification would be that their pheromones could potentially lead to them having undue influence over the jury and judge, as well as impairing the abilities of the lawyers present attempting to question her.

As well, allowing them to serve as lawyers and jurors might be tricky. Maybe they can be an exception to Jury Duty should they become citizens, like Luga did.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Something does occur to me. The judge described Luga as a poor innocent Succubus being used by the FBI in his statement after swimming up to his eyeballs in her pheromones, despite the fact that she openly admitted to independently accessing Branch's mind and psychically inducing the experience of ripping open her clothing, handling her breast, and the threat that she was going to bite it off.

The obvious question should be whether or not Succubi should be allowed to appear in person in court or rather special circumstances should require all Succubi to testify by video phone when required by the court. I'm willing to bet the legal justification would be that their pheromones could potentially lead to them having undue influence over the jury and judge, as well as impairing the abilities of the lawyers present attempting to question her.

As well, allowing them to serve as lawyers and jurors might be tricky. Maybe they can be an exception to Jury Duty should they become citizens, like Luga did.

Meh, this is easily solved by better air filtration.
They could do it in a staff room, no reason why it should be impossible elsewhere.

Simon_Jester wrote:A demon could have identified him. He was obviously a powerful angel, and a logical first step would be to take any footage we have of him, e-mail it to Abigor, and ask "have you seen this person?"

Ah, yes, that could work. A few words explaining that in the story itself would be nice.

Gil Hamilton wrote: The obvious question should be whether or not Succubi should be allowed to appear in person in court or rather special circumstances should require all Succubi to testify by video phone when required by the court. I'm willing to bet the legal justification would be that their pheromones could potentially lead to them having undue influence over the jury and judge, as well as impairing the abilities of the lawyers present attempting to question her.

I think something along those lines would have to be instituted. There are circumstances in which witnesses can testify via videocamera so I'd guess that would be expanded.

As well, allowing them to serve as lawyers and jurors might be tricky. Maybe they can be an exception to Jury Duty should they become citizens, like Luga did.

Well, we haven't finished with this arc yet, not buy a long shot. So Spoiler . The "other" solution to the jury problem is a jury consisting entirely of succubae. This may, of course, result in the verdict of 'Guilty' being replaced by 'dinner'. This does highlight something else, although a 6 foot succubus may not quite have the open menace of a 20 - 30 foot traditional demon, she is in fact far more dangerous to have around.

serafina wrote:Meh, this is easily solved by better air filtration. They could do it in a staff room, no reason why it should be impossible elsewhere.

The kit in the White House and a few other places is very, very expensive. The filters are very high-tech indeed (as I pointed out in Armageddon, the perceived threat was chemical or biological weapons and the idea was to sweep them out and neutralize them before they could kill the people in the room). Installing them all over the place is likely to be cost-prohibitive. That being said, the key to dealing with Luga and her sisters is to be on one's guard, all the time. Conscious of the fact that if one drops ones guard, one will start getting all warm and fuzzy. Spoiler By the way, would it be hell.gov or gov.hell?

Stuart wrote:By the way, would it be hell.gov or gov.hell?

That really depends on ICANN and the US. Since we're dealing with effectively new states I would suppose they would be more likely to be separate ccTLD's for each nation formed. Hell, as in demon ruled, would be likely to .he and Caesars maybe .rr (Roman Republic). Neither is in use and ccTLD are two-lettered. Granted, .gov is a sTLD but it is reserved to the US and its agencies and such. Puerto Rico for example is .pr, not .pr.gov.

The succubae and incubae are a tricky to address in anything requiring decisions, which is in effect everything. Suppose they'd work as waitresses - they could probably live of the tips in itself. Or job interviews - they are likelier to be given the job, simply on that. And these are only the instances in which you're only a few moments or hours under their olfactory influence. It becomes much more profound when you are coworkers.
I personally doubt the security of videoconferenced testimonies. I'd prefer a specially ventilated compartment.

As the identification of Michael, it didn't strike me as odd. Given the knowledge of Abigor, who is I suppose still in constant debriefing, as well getting started on governing, he might have described him, or any other high-ranking demon for that case. A messenger or diplomat would suffice. Describing how?

"Imagine unearthly beauty. You have that image? Good. This image appears to you as hideous as my folk compared to Michaels real looks."

Random thought: it's Belial that got away and received asylum in Heaven from Michael, right? I wonder if there's a demon who can home in on HIS mind to find the path to Heaven from Earth...

Ted C wrote:Random thought: it's Belial that got away and received asylum in Heaven from Michael, right? I wonder if there's a demon who can home in on HIS mind to find the path to Heaven from Earth...

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but it was stated in story that Belial is held / was being provided a bronce-clad room in which he was to be at all times.
Also, Yahweh isn't aware of Belial and his shenanigans for Michael.

I forgot, there seems to be a certain hierarchy on the processing of souls: other pantheons / deities - Heaven - Hell.
If we assume Caesar and Elvis had been snatched away and only the Roman was brought to hell, this order might be the case.

Stuart wrote:

serafina wrote:Meh, this is easily solved by better air filtration. They could do it in a staff room, no reason why it should be impossible elsewhere.

The kit in the White House and a few other places is very, very expensive. The filters are very high-tech indeed (as I pointed out in Armageddon, the perceived threat was chemical or biological weapons and the idea was to sweep them out and neutralize them before they could kill the people in the room). Installing them all over the place is likely to be cost-prohibitive. That being said, the key to dealing with Luga and her sisters is to be on one's guard, all the time. Conscious of the fact that if one drops ones guard, one will start getting all warm and fuzzy. Spoiler

Another interesting point, how long before said pheremones are isolated and used in, for example women's perfumes? On the other hand, since the primary effect of the pheremones is to make people feel warm and fuzzy, they offer a wonderful way of dealing with riots.

Well, i suppose you do not have to use the same high-end system.

Alternatively, you could stick the succubi into NBC-gear - i could imagine certain places will make that mandatory.
After all, you do not want to sell you stuff too cheap or get tricked otherwise.

I didn't know that you needed such advanced filtering equipment to deal with the hormones (silly me, I thought that a standard military issue gas mask was good enough).

As for identifying Michael, I think that the junta's info would probably be enough, unless Abigor has been talking to sketch artists.

Going on to military equipment, what type of tank would be more convenient to mass produce for the use of developing world nations who are trying to mechanize? T-72, ZTZ-96?

I don't think that Uriel will be fully recovered by the time he has to report to Yah yah. He wouldn't be thinking very well and his appearance is probably going to goad Yah yah even more, on top of his failure and embarrasing fugitive status.

Pelranius wrote:I didn't know that you needed such advanced filtering equipment to deal with the hormones (silly me, I thought that a standard military issue gas mask was good enough).

A gas mask might be good enough, but that's irrelevant to a courtroom where people are not wearing gas masks for practical reasons. We're talking about room ventilation systems, like the one installed in the Oval Office.

Serafina wrote:Alternatively, you could stick the succubi into NBC-gear - i could imagine certain places will make that mandatory.

If the succubi must wear an NBC suit and either speak muffled noise through a mask or talk through an electronic microphone, why bring her into the courtroom at all? Just have her testify over video.

Pelranius wrote:

Rahvin wrote:

Pelranius wrote: if you're really feeling paranoid, lobotomize said individual to prevent any sort of betrayal.

Can you lobotomize a demon and have it "stick?" They can heal from damn near anythign that doesn't kill them outright, which presumably means even brain tissue regenerates given time. Or could you place iron filings in the cavity to prevent healing?

Actually, I'd forgotten about the healing part. To deal with the healing, we could just starve the demon (Uriel's experience seems to suggest that without food, angelic and probably demonic healing slows down significantly.

On the other hand, you probably don't need the demon to stay too long in the cart, so that cuts down on the chances of a double cross.

Some of the brain tissue would grow back but deamons are related to us, and there is no way for that tissue to grow back all the connections that took years to form. They would be just as useless.

Jeremy wrote:

Pelranius wrote:
Actually, I'd forgotten about the healing part. To deal with the healing, we could just starve the demon (Uriel's experience seems to suggest that without food, angelic and probably demonic healing slows down significantly.

On the other hand, you probably don't need the demon to stay too long in the cart, so that cuts down on the chances of a double cross.

Some of the brain tissue would grow back but deamons are related to us, and there is no way for that tissue to grow back all the connections that took years to form. They would be just as useless.

Yes, the lobotomy would remove the personality of the demon, though in that case would it affect the demon's 'beacon properties'?

Darth Wong wrote:

Serafina wrote:Alternatively, you could stick the succubi into NBC-gear - i could imagine certain places will make that mandatory.

If the succubi must wear an NBC suit and either speak muffled noise through a mask or talk through an electronic microphone, why bring her into the courtroom at all? Just have her testify over video.

It applies to more than just court.

Imagine you are a salesman - do you want to deal with those hormones, severely undercutting your profits?

Overall, Succubi propably will have a very tough time to integrate into human society.
Either only a few of them will be on earth, greatly reducing the problem.
Or they will have to deal with certain security measures, at least in confined situations

I can hardly imagine that people will be happy with subtle,but strong influence on them. While we have those things between humans (looking good is an advantage etc.), they are weaker AND we know of them.
But people tend to fear the unknown.

Thus, i imagine that Succubi will suffer discrimination, unless they take some measures to reduce the effects of their pheromones.
NBC-gear would be a solution, but really uncomfortable. But perhaps there are chemical countermeasures - perhaps you can overturn the effects with something similar to a deodorant, or perhaps there will be some form of medication.

Serafina wrote: It applies to more than just court.

Imagine you are a salesman - do you want to deal with those hormones, severely undercutting your profits?

Overall, Succubi propably will have a very tough time to integrate into human society.
Either only a few of them will be on earth, greatly reducing the problem.
Or they will have to deal with certain security measures, at least in confined situations

I can hardly imagine that people will be happy with subtle,but strong influence on them. While we have those things between humans (looking good is an advantage etc.), they are weaker AND we know of them.
But people tend to fear the unknown.

Thus, i imagine that Succubi will suffer discrimination, unless they take some measures to reduce the effects of their pheromones.
NBC-gear would be a solution, but really uncomfortable. But perhaps there are chemical countermeasures - perhaps you can overturn the effects with something similar to a deodorant, or perhaps there will be some form of medication.

Medication sounds like the most likely path. Or you could deal with them through intermediaries (it seems that the demons aren't that susceptible to their pheromones from my recollection, but I could be wrong).

Stuart wrote:By the way, would it be hell.gov or gov.hell?

It would be .gov.hell. The United States has the use of '.gov' on its own while other nations have to make do with .gov.nation - for example HM Revenue and Customs is http://www.hmrc.gov.uk so unless they make hell and earth some kind of world level domains (it might not be that unlikely, but a way off before that's needed) it'll be that.

FaxModem1 wrote:I love the fact that one of the people hunting Uriel remarked on Michael's hotness. Reminds me of the fanbase for Prince Nuada from Hellboy II.

Actually, there's a scary thought. Teenage girls having posters of Michael because they like the badboys. The guys already have the succubus, is this what the girls get?

Or do they already have posters of Abigor on their walls?

I'm betting on Michael.

Stuart wrote:Well, we haven't finished with this arc yet, not buy a long shot. So Spoiler

one of the smaller outcomes is Luga decides to get a law degree

Eep.

The "other" solution to the jury problem is a jury consisting entirely of succubae. This may, of course, result in the verdict of 'Guilty' being replaced by 'dinner'. This does highlight something else, although a 6 foot succubus may not quite have the open menace of a 20 - 30 foot traditional demon, she is in fact far more dangerous to have around.

Certainly nowadays. I'm not sure that's a solution to the jury problem; it's more like diving headlong into the problem and splashing around for the sheer perverse glee of doing so.

Serafina wrote:Alternatively, you could stick the succubi into NBC-gear - i could imagine certain places will make that mandatory.
After all, you do not want to sell you stuff too cheap or get tricked otherwise.

Clever. They're the source of the mind control pheromones; make them wear the improbably uncomfortable airtight suit.

Pelranius wrote:Yes, the lobotomy would remove the personality of the demon, though in that case would it affect the demon's 'beacon properties'?

I still say it's smarter and more reliable to bribe the demon.

Pelranius wrote:Medication sounds like the most likely path. Or you could deal with them through intermediaries (it seems that the demons aren't that susceptible to their pheromones from my recollection, but I could be wrong).

They're by no means immune; demon lords who went to meetings with Deumos would make a point of sitting by a window.

Pelranius wrote:

Jeremy wrote:

Pelranius wrote:
Actually, I'd forgotten about the healing part. To deal with the healing, we could just starve the demon (Uriel's experience seems to suggest that without food, angelic and probably demonic healing slows down significantly.

On the other hand, you probably don't need the demon to stay too long in the cart, so that cuts down on the chances of a double cross.

Some of the brain tissue would grow back but deamons are related to us, and there is no way for that tissue to grow back all the connections that took years to form. They would be just as useless.

Yes, the lobotomy would remove the personality of the demon, though in that case would it affect the demon's 'beacon properties'?

Why not test it out? Hook the daemon in question up to electrodes and monitor him while we run through certain tests. If his beacon properties were restricted to a certain structure we could attempt to destroy other parts of his brain. If the daemon's beacon properties necessitate the whole brain, just use the easier and cheaper method of bribing (as already mentioned).

... but demons are people too!

I'd just use the bribe method first rather than spend many hours trying to do EEG scans on a demon in hopes of identifying the "entanglement signal node."

Trying to destroy the demon's ability to make decisions is overengineering the problem; any rational demon can be bribed into compliance, probably with relative ease.

Bayonet's insane ramblings have been relocated to a more appropriate location

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin