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Bayonet wrote:Somehow, I don't think of either Petraeus or Uncle Billy relishing the sight or cackling. I can see them sitting in their tents staring at the canvas with a glass in their hands, futilely trying to forget the image.

Then doing it again in the morning if necessary.

That's... quite poignant. However, I can actually see "Uncle Billy" being outraged -- and I mean outraged -- at finding out that First-Lifers, instead of heeding his words, actually managed to find a way to make war even worse than it was in his time, when at least the worst thing might be poor-by-modern-standards medical "care."

I wonder what Stonewall Jackson or Nathan Bedford Forrest would think, in contrast? Seeing as Lee's a non-issue at this point, and U.S. Grant -- or rather, "Hiram Ulysses Grant" (lol) -- has yet to be found.

I imagine that Mr. Forrest would be a bit butt hurt over the fact that now his sophisticated cavalry tactics have been superseded. The man was always on the egotistic side, and someone who raised a cavalry unit on his own dime would undoubtedly be assured of his individual ability to make a difference, so to speak.

Stonewall Jackson would probably take nukes rather philosophically and be rather detached about it, and as an artillery man by training, he might start doodling ideas for atomic cannons, at least until someone points out exactly how impractical they are (of course Jackson was extremely religious, so the Message might alter his outlook in all sorts of ways).

I just had this mental image of Lee's OPFOR actually having been commanded by a rescued Grant, with the umpire telling neither commander who was on the other side. Now that would have been a Take That at Lee's expense!

I don't think that Forrest -- and I suppose J.E.B. Stuart -- should be too upset; instead of being obsoleted by nukes, cavalry remains and (to some extent) thrives, just not in the way they had envisioned at the time. The "individualist" mentality wouldn't help Forrest too much of course, although I wonder how much patience the ol' Captain would have had for his attempts to "wrest" his way through the simulations... unless he was still a right cunt about "it."

Jackson would be... interesting, although I do wonder what his feelings would be about the changes in warfare, beyond merely advances/improvements of existing technologies (i.e. faster ground transportation, longer-ranged/more accurate rifles and artillery). The thought of Stonewall Jackson doodling atomic cannons is amusing though, thanks for the mental image.

Hopefully Longstreet will, upon his own eventual rescue, be able to see that the historical record now looks upon him more favorably than he was when he died / the years after his death, and that he was indeed on the postbellum right side. Likewise Grant could find that, well, his Memoirs did indeed work out (in addition to his "General of the Army" pay).

I checked up Curtis LeMay on Wikipedia (yes, shame on me for not knowing who LeMay is, blah blah...) and it says he died in 1990. You'd think a guy like him would have seen a nuclear test or footage of it, so he knows what the hell to expect.

He still would be pretty damn useful taking out Heaven, though. Assuming Caesar doesn't find and hire him first.

As for Forrest, he might not be so pissed about the loss of cavalry - we still use them. The difference being that ours are bigger, heavier, and immune to anything that can't blast through several feet of rolled steel. So yeah, he'd have to adapt to modern cavalry. But as the Lee example proved, that might be more difficult than he'd expect.

As for the OPFOR being commanded by Grant... oddly enough, wasn't it Grant who established a more modern US military doctrine? As in attrition the enemy through better logistics and firepower? Don't get me wrong, tactics are still important, but when you have the enemy out-gunned and your troops are better trained and supplied, it's a huge tactical advantage.

Saint_007 wrote:I checked up Curtis LeMay on Wikipedia (yes, shame on me for not knowing who LeMay is, blah blah...) and it says he died in 1990. You'd think a guy like him would have seen a nuclear test or footage of it, so he knows what the hell to expect. .

St. Curtis BUILT the nuclear Air Force. He'd have known.

Saint_007 wrote:I checked up Curtis LeMay on Wikipedia (yes, shame on me for not knowing who LeMay is, blah blah...) and it says he died in 1990. You'd think a guy like him would have seen a nuclear test or footage of it, so he knows what the hell to expect.

... You might have actually read the article before coming here and sounding stupid, you know. Just might. Or at least skimmed it, maybe?

I can't see St. Curtis working for anyone other than the United States, though he'd probably be running some think tank while he gets up to speed on current military developments instead of any actual command.

It's too bad Strange won't have spent any time in the Hell pit, unfortunately.

Saint_007 wrote:... tactics are still important, but when you have the enemy out-gunned and your troops are better trained and supplied, it's a huge tactical advantage.

Actually, it's a strategic advantage - "Amateurs argue 'Tactics' while Professionals discuss 'Logistics' " was the lesson repeatedly beaten into my brain.

Pelranius wrote:I can't see St. Curtis working for anyone other than the United States, though he'd probably be running some think tank while he gets up to speed on current military developments instead of any actual command.

It's too bad Strange won't have spent any time in the Hell pit, unfortunately.

I would think LeMay would be extremely titchy working for anyone at this point. Politics didn't exactly treat him well after he got out.

Frankly, though, I don't see how getting Curtis LeMay out of the pit and putting him to work is useful, even if he WANTS to go back to work. The issue with our Civil War general applies to LeMay as well; technology has changed rapidly since he worked and no matter how skilled at his job that he WAS, he's going to have to be completely retrained from scratch and also have to do a fair bit of unlearning in the process. The problem is we've got excellent people who are trained now. Somehow I think General LeMay would scorn the notion of bringing in someone 40 years out of date and retraining him out of mere sentimentality when there are experts who can do the job alot better.

Yes but there are an aweful lot of people here who think that LeMay is the most holy figure in the history of the United States Military...

Anyway.

Back on topic after re-reading the last few chapters, you have to wonder what Michael is going to make of all this. He wanted to humans in Heaven to eliminate the personal guard of YahYah, as well as Jesus, letting him take power in a coup, then sue for peace.

You have to wonder if he'll finally understand that he might have misscalculated when reports about the NUke come in. Most of Heaven don't have a clue what happened, but *he* will understand perfectly well exactly what just happened, and he has said in the past more then once that his worst nightmare is HUmans coming into Heaven with WMD's and a big big big big big BIG BIG BIG chip on their shoulder.

Oh, if he didn't plan for the nuke, well he better start planning fast, before the fallout comes...

Chris OFarrell wrote: You have to wonder if he'll finally understand that he might have miscalculated when reports about the Nuke come in. Most of Heaven don't have a clue what happened, but *he* will understand perfectly well exactly what just happened, and he has said in the past more then once that his worst nightmare is Humans coming into Heaven with WMD's and a big big big big big BIG BIG BIG chip on their shoulder.

I'm presuming that in the next couple chapters, or at least the next week instory, that we will see Michael make his move on Yahweh, just as the shock of the nuking of his army paralyzes his side the most. Having the nuke go off is Just As Plannedtm for him by my reckoning. Of course, it's often rather limp- nearly dead . For all I know this may go on quite a bit longer, or at least until Jesus bites it.

Night_stalker wrote:Oh, if he didn't plan for the nuke, well he better start planning fast, before the fallout comes...

Fallout is overrated. It's a good game, but not that good.

Oh.

I don't think it'll be that big a deal. Fallout is overrated. It'll cause trouble, but not that much trouble, especially from an airburst, as previous posts have elaborated upon.

Night_stalker wrote:Oh, if he didn't plan for the nuke, well he better start planning fast, before the fallout comes...

As effectivley said above, what fallout? It was an airburst, which is a pretty clean initiation.

Fallout in that context has 2 meanings: nuclear and political. Yaw-Yaw is going to be... displeased with the news of the army's failure, so Michael had better start preparing for a killer lightening show. Add in the fulfillment of the prophecy and he's going to be pissed.

Gil Hamilton wrote:I would think LeMay would be extremely titchy working for anyone at this point. Politics didn't exactly treat him well after he got out.

Frankly, though, I don't see how getting Curtis LeMay out of the pit and putting him to work is useful, even if he WANTS to go back to work. The issue with our Civil War general applies to LeMay as well; technology has changed rapidly since he worked and no matter how skilled at his job that he WAS, he's going to have to be completely retrained from scratch and also have to do a fair bit of unlearning in the process. The problem is we've got excellent people who are trained now. Somehow I think General LeMay would scorn the notion of bringing in someone 40 years out of date and retraining him out of mere sentimentality when there are experts who can do the job alot better.

LeMay, like a lot of other cases who were working up through the mid-20th century, are borderline cases.

Someone who retired in 1990 could probably be brought up to speed more or less seamlessly. The doctrine and equipment have changed, but not as much; they could catch up. They're not in the absurd position someone Lee was in, having to drill out a lifetime of thinking that weapon range is a few hundred yards and that no force can move more than twenty miles an hour at best. They understand ideas like communication security, battlefield intelligence being important, air and artillery support being devastating, and so on, even if the tools have changed a bit.

Someone who retired in 1950 is in a much worse position. They retired in an era when foot infantry were not uncommon, when infantry heavy weapons could not reliably kill tanks except at point blank range, when support forces were less mobile, and so on. They might be able to pick up modern tactics with relatively little training, but in this case "relatively little" would probably mean more like five or ten years instead of twenty.

LeMay might be genuinely useful in some ways, because of certain virtues that would still apply, such as leadership ability. The ability to lead men and inspire loyalty and hard work is valuable even when the details of the work change.

The same goes for other areas when we're talking about people who retired in the mid-to-late twentieth century. Maxwell would be useless as a physicist today if we found him, and Einstein would be of little use for years, but someone more recent like Feynman could actually be helpful because the magnitude of change since he left the field is smaller.

Stuart wrote:

Edward Yee wrote: Speaking of the good General, why does he keep popping up under "Badass" in TV Tropes? It just keeps bringing up a somehow more... macho image of him.

Because beneath that quiet, polite, scholarly exterior beats a heart of pure badass. Lady I know said he is the sort of man every girl wants to bring home to meet her parents - and the sort of man every woman hopes will be around to escort her across a parking lot late at night.

Well look at his fucking salad bar!


Hell, most of it is obscured by his lapel!

Why thank you for pointing out the obvious, westrim. Yes, I do feel stupid for posting that. What I should have said is why would he be jumping for joy at the use of a nuke? If he built the goddamn nuclear air force, it's not like he hasn't seen it before. Unless of course, the poster meant he's finally seeing his years of work in action.

Night_stalker wrote:Oh, if he didn't plan for the nuke, well he better start planning fast, before the fallout comes...

Well, given how airbursts aren't that radiation-heavy, maybe not. Maybe some contamination, but nothing major; no two-headed babies or mutant births in Heaven to worry about.

If the HEA breaks out the Biological and Chemical weapons, however, then we're definitely looking at some possibly serious aftermaths; mutated viruses or toxin residues. Modern nukes are just really, really, REALLY big explosions with minimal radiation - unless, as was pointed out, it's a ground detonation, then you get irradiated debris.

Night_stalker wrote:Fallout in that context has 2 meanings: nuclear and political. Yaw-Yaw is going to be... displeased with the news of the army's failure, so Michael had better start preparing for a killer lightening show. Add in the fulfillment of the prophecy and he's going to be pissed.

The prophecy was only fulfilled by a pun, and I don't think Yah-Yah would accept it. Unless the prophecy really does say "Sun of Man" as opposed to "Son of Man" as I think it does. Still, we need to see ol' Jerkass' reaction to the fact that he might not be the mightiest power in Heaven after all. After all the hurricanes and the Bowls of Wrath, it'll be worth the price of admission.

General Schatten wrote:snip
Well look at his fucking salad bar!

NZ army joke is that US service personnel get a medal for flying over northern Ireland.

Stuart Mackey wrote:

General Schatten wrote:snip
Well look at his fucking salad bar!

NZ army joke is that US service personnel get a medal for flying over northern Ireland.

NZ has a military?

General Schatten wrote:

Stuart Mackey wrote:

General Schatten wrote:snip
Well look at his fucking salad bar!

NZ army joke is that US service personnel get a medal for flying over northern Ireland.

NZ has a military?

Yep, small amount of blokes to shepherd the sheep battalions (or so they say, most of us think Waiouru blonds have a different use entirely)

Stuart Mackey wrote: Yep, small amount of blokes to shepherd the sheep battalions (or so they say, most of us think Waiouru blonds have a different use entirely)

And your navy consists of a tinny with three blokes and a rifle?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hlFcnkGY-o

General Schatten wrote: Well look at his fucking salad bar!

Hell, most of it is obscured by his lapel!

Color me unimpressed. It was better in the old days when they just let the conspicuously competent jump a grade instead of covering their uniforms with little bits of metal and ribbon.

Emerson33260 wrote:Color me unimpressed. It was better in the old days when they just let the conspicuously competent jump a grade instead of covering their uniforms with little bits of metal and ribbon.

There's pretty much nowhere else for Gen. Petraeus to go short of WW3 breaking out.