Manticore vs. The Tau

[Connor MacLeod]

What's vaporizing ? Ripping something appart to it's single molecules... It just a question of "how fast" you are ripped appart when you hit the wedge.

Proof that the wedge can "rip" something apart into vapor, please.

[Connor MacLeod]

And this is aside from the "strength" variation statements for the honorvers (10,000 gees to 200,000+ gees, despite what red-shifting photons implies) as well as the fact that apparently the outer "bands" of the Impeller wedge can be scanned by sensors (including targeting sensors, which includes lightspeed sensors.)

They can scan it in the way that they can detect the actual strength of the outer wedge, and thus calculate away the distortion due to gravity and "see through" it. That's why they use 2 wedges and a sidewall in between (per "wedge") to make this impossible.

Err, if they can scan and compensate for the "strength" of the outer wedge they should be able to get a clear reading on the sidewall and other wedge through it.

And note that this doesn't address the fact that a Wedge supposedly "impenetrable" to energy weapons can be penetrated, even parttially, by esensors (the difference in energy.)

[HRogge]

Proof that the wedge can "rip" something apart into vapor, please.

The wedge produce very strong tidal forced SIDEWARDS in any object that enters the stressband. It's like flying near a black hole, the front part of the object is pushed aside before the rest of the object, so it is broken. Depending on the strength of the material you should get nice vapor.

Err, if they can scan and compensate for the "strength" of the outer wedge they should be able to get a clear reading on the sidewall and other wedge through it.

A wedge is ( in my oppinion ) impenetrable for gravity sensors... if you know the strength of both wedges you can compensate to use your EM sensors through it, but not the graviton one.

[Dahak]

And this is aside from the "strength" variation statements for the honorvers (10,000 gees to 200,000+ gees, despite what red-shifting photons implies) as well as the fact that apparently the outer "bands" of the Impeller wedge can be scanned by sensors (including targeting sensors, which includes lightspeed sensors.)

They can scan it in the way that they can detect the actual strength of the outer wedge, and thus calculate away the distortion due to gravity and "see through" it. That's why they use 2 wedges and a sidewall in between (per "wedge") to make this impossible.

Err, if they can scan and compensate for the "strength" of the outer wedge they should be able to get a clear reading on the sidewall and other wedge through it.

And note that this doesn't address the fact that a Wedge supposedly "impenetrable" to energy weapons can be penetrated, even parttially, by esensors (the difference in energy.)

They can't read the strength of the inner one, so they cannot calculate it away, as well. That's the point of the exercise.
They only can "see" through it, but not with their gravitic sensors.

And they don't penetrate. They just perform an image transformation to calculate the gravitic distortion out of the picture acquired by their sensors (i.e. cameras); so they can see what's behind, but not use its sensors through it. A HH ship does this from the inside, because it knows its wedge's strengths.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Just a little observation, sorry if this seems off topic but it is somewhat appropreate as i realized something reading all this techno-jargon about the wedges.

While Honorverse is a good series, and i enjoy reading the books, i think Webber has made a fatal mistake trying to rationalize his technology like this. This sounds a lot like the stuff that Trek was known for in the end, implausable technology explained in detail, knowing that the details are bullshit.

I mean it seems like it'd be easier to just describe how the ships function, and then let it be someone else's problem to figure out why they function. Let some other guy put up a website, you know.

Again, just my observation.

[Connor MacLeod]

The wedge produce very strong tidal forced SIDEWARDS in any object that enters the stressband. It's like flying near a black hole, the front part of the object is pushed aside before the rest of the object, so it is broken. Depending on the strength of the material you should get nice vapor.

So? Producing tidal force sideways (even if it works as you claim) is only going to tear the missile to pieces (its going to be suffering simultaneous accelerations in more than on edirection, perhaps.) (And I don't even see where the hell you're going with the black hole analogy, since that involves differences in gravitational strength acting on an object.

Anyhow, its not going to convert it into vapor, unless we're talking of innumerable individual fields acting on every single molecule or some technobabble "distingetration into molecules" effect. Vaporization is a phase change (soild to liquid to gas) like melting is, which generally involvesa n infusion of energy.

Basically, it sounds like you're playing semantics games with the term "vaporization." If you're gonna make up excuses, why not just blame it on a wedge interaction? IIRC Weber himself said that the interaction of two wedges leads to overloads that cause a massive release of energy (the capacitors and such), which is what causes the vaporization.

A wedge is ( in my oppinion ) impenetrable for gravity sensors... if you know the strength of both wedges you can compensate to use your EM sensors through it, but not the graviton one.

Er, that makes NO SENSE, since gravity sensors are passive (IE they rely on emissions they receive FROM the wedge. They don't emit anything that requires penetrating into them.)

Anyhow, if EM sensors can mysteriously "penetrate", why can't lasers? (particularily since EM sensors are immensely weaker than their energy weapons.)

[Connor MacLeod]

They can't read the strength of the inner one, so they cannot calculate it away, as well. That's the point of the exercise.
They only can "see" through it, but not with their gravitic sensors.

Er, so now the wedges are of two vastly different strengths? I find that unlikely. Besides which, given how accurately they can approximate acceleration from wedge strength and such, I fail to see how they cannot "compensate" for the inner band even if they can only scan the outer one (since presumably both bands contribute to the acceleration effect, and the performance parameters of wedges are not going to vary DRASTICALLY among the different navies, since the accelerations don't.)

(this doesn't even begin to address how they exactly "compensate" to allow EM fields to penetrate at all And such compensation introduces all manner of logical inconsitencies with weapons penetration and the ability to penetrate sidewalls...)

And they don't penetrate. They just perform an image transformation to calculate the gravitic distortion out of the picture acquired by their sensors (i.e. cameras); so they can see what's behind, but not use its sensors through it. A HH ship does this from the inside, because it knows its wedge's strengths.

Hello? If EM radiation can penetrate to present an image (to the human eye or camera), other radiation should penetrate. We're (suppsoedly) not talking about Technobabble force field deflector shields, after all. And its unlikely we're talking about purely passive sensors, since they clearly rely on active sensors for targeting purposes as well as passive. (it might work if we're just talking about the computers compensating for the distortion of the images, but we're not, we're talking about the actual ability to TARGET vessels on the other side, and no honorverse ship I know of relies on visual sensors purely for targeting.)

[Xon]

Connor MacLeod, one kicker about the Wedge/sidewall is it is described as a gravity wave. Which means a change in gravitational forces in the area of effect over time.

[Dahak]

And they don't penetrate. They just perform an image transformation to calculate the gravitic distortion out of the picture acquired by their sensors (i.e. cameras); so they can see what's behind, but not use its sensors through it. A HH ship does this from the inside, because it knows its wedge's strengths.

Hello? If EM radiation can penetrate to present an image (to the human eye or camera), other radiation should penetrate. We're (suppsoedly) not talking about Technobabble force field deflector shields, after all. And its unlikely we're talking about purely passive sensors, since they clearly rely on active sensors for targeting purposes as well as passive. (it might work if we're just talking about the computers compensating for the distortion of the images, but we're not, we're talking about the actual ability to TARGET vessels on the other side, and no honorverse ship I know of relies on visual sensors purely for targeting.)

Huh? We're not talking about targetting... At least I'm not. They can't target through a Wedge at all. (But in case of a single impeller band per wedge, a ship might be able to compensate for the distortion, and get the location of the ship within the impeller (visually), and thus increase the chance of hitting said ship with missiles. A thing which was mentioned in AAC, as well)
It's only about seeing the target, as in visual acquisition.
Even they can't use sensors through the wedge from the inside. They can only compensate for the optical distortion so they can more or less see through it. That's what D'Orville described in the very first training battle of OBS.
That's the whole reason to invent the keyhole platforms in the first place...

[Imperial Overlord]

Dahak, I think what Conner is saying that if you see through the wedge at all, even if you need computer corrections, that means it is permeable in some fashion to photons at least. And that in turn implies you can shoot a laser through it.

[technomage]

A starship can see through its' own wedge.

It is generating the wedge, thus it has detailed readings on the power, fluctuations, etc. and can thus compensate for the distortion of its' own wedge.

Warships gernerate a double-layered wedge. A warship can't see through the wedge of another warship because while it has complete knowledge of it's own wedge, it can only get scans of the other ship's outer wedge, and not the inner.

[Imperial Overlord]

A starship can see through its' own wedge.

It is generating the wedge, thus it has detailed readings on the power, fluctuations, etc. and can thus compensate for the distortion of its' own wedge.

Warships gernerate a double-layered wedge. A warship can't see through the wedge of another warship because while it has complete knowledge of it's own wedge, it can only get scans of the other ship's outer wedge, and not the inner.

None of this means its inpenetrable to EM radiation. In fact, it is evidence that there is "merely" massive distortion and bending. Distortion and bending is not invulnerability.

[Connor MacLeod]

Huh? We're not talking about targetting... At least I'm not. They can't target through a Wedge at all. (But in case of a single impeller band per wedge, a ship might be able to compensate for the distortion, and get the location of the ship within the impeller (visually), and thus increase the chance of hitting said ship with missiles. A thing which was mentioned in AAC, as well)

But what was possible for the generating warship was impossible for its foes. Civilian impeller drives generated a single stress band in each aspect; military impeller drives generated a double band and filled the space between them with a sidewall, for good measure. Hostile sensors might be able to analyze the outermost band, but they couldn't get accurate readings on the inner ones, and that was why no one could target something on their far side.

We ARE talking about targeting, sorry.

It's only about seeing the target, as in visual acquisition.

Even they can't use sensors through the wedge from the inside. They can only compensate for the optical distortion so they can more or less see through it. That's what D'Orville described in the very first training battle of OBS.
That's the whole reason to invent the keyhole platforms in the first place...

Honor watched the chronometer tick down, and her mind was cold and clear, accepting no possibility of failure. The sensors she had left couldn't track Sirius clearly through her belly stress band, and her current vector gave the Q-ship four options: retreat and break off the engagement, roll up on her own side relative to Fearless and shoot "down" through the starboard sidewall as she overflew the cruiser, cross her bow, or cross her stern.

Obviously they CAN track through the stress band, just not with any great degree of accuracy (and not when they've taken alot of damage to their sensors.

[Imperial Overlord]

Woops. Mea Maxima Culpa.

[Connor MacLeod]

A starship can see through its' own wedge.

It is generating the wedge, thus it has detailed readings on the power, fluctuations, etc. and can thus compensate for the distortion of its' own wedge.

Warships gernerate a double-layered wedge. A warship can't see through the wedge of another warship because while it has complete knowledge of it's own wedge, it can only get scans of the other ship's outer wedge, and not the inner.

None of this means its inpenetrable to EM radiation. In fact, it is evidence that there is "merely" massive distortion and bending. Distortion and bending is not invulnerability.

I dont think anyone is claiming its invulnerable in a "no limits fallacy" sort of way (just no weapon they have can penetrate, ,which is a different story.)

My point on the other hand is merely that the behaviour of the wedge is generally inconsistent with the nature of "gravity" as we know it. Any gravitational aspects of it are largely a side effect. (sort of the way Weber's "nukes" seem to behave like atmospheric explosions even though they're in space. Like having a fireball. Best guess is that the fireball is from teh vaporized casing. heh. )

[Connor MacLeod]

Connor MacLeod, one kicker about the Wedge/sidewall is it is described as a gravity wave. Which means a change in gravitational forces in the area of effect over time.

Could you please be a bit more specific as to which partticular complaint you were rebutting?

[HRogge]

So? Producing tidal force sideways (even if it works as you claim) is only going to tear the missile to pieces (its going to be suffering simultaneous accelerations in more than on edirection, perhaps.)

Exactly... the moment the top of the missile is hitting the wedge it is accelerated sidewards ( but the rest of the missiles is not )... this stress is ripping the missile appart and if it's strong enough it should rip the missile apart one atom layer after another one.

And I don't even see where the hell you're going with the black hole analogy, since that involves differences in gravitational strength acting on an object.

The front part of the missile ( inside the wedge ) is accelerated wit a million g sidewards... the aft part is no accelerated at all from the wedge. That is the same situation as if you fall into a black hole.

Anyhow, its not going to convert it into vapor, unless we're talking of innumerable individual fields acting on every single molecule or some technobabble "distingetration into molecules" effect. Vaporization is a phase change (soild to liquid to gas) like melting is, which generally involvesa n infusion of energy.

The object gets a lot of energy... kinetic energy. And it's not done at once to the the incoming object but part by part when the object enters the wedge.

Basically, it sounds like you're playing semantics games with the term "vaporization." If you're gonna make up excuses, why not just blame it on a wedge interaction? IIRC Weber himself said that the interaction of two wedges leads to overloads that cause a massive release of energy (the capacitors and such), which is what causes the vaporization.

Sorry, I though it was clear we are talking about objects without their own wedge. A missile with a wedge ( or even a smaller ship ) would be vaporized by it's own "exploding" wedge long before the ships body hits the wedge itself.
I'm talking about the situation when an inert object ( missile without active drive, asteroid, ect. ) hits a wedge.

A wedge is ( in my oppinion ) impenetrable for gravity sensors... if you know the strength of both wedges you can compensate to use your EM sensors through it, but not the graviton one.

Er, that makes NO SENSE, since gravity sensors are passive (IE they rely on emissions they receive FROM the wedge. They don't emit anything that requires penetrating into them.)
They rely on a "ripple"/wave in the lowest layer of hyperspace...if these ripples cannot penetrate a wedge it would explain the effect well.

Anyhow, if EM sensors can mysteriously "penetrate", why can't lasers? (particularily since EM sensors are immensely weaker than their energy weapons.)

Theoretically some part of the lasers energy would penetrate the wedge and hit the ship if it hits the wedge in the right direction... that's why I always said NO when someone asked me if the wedge would block things like a superlaser.

But without knowing the strength of both wedges and without much more firepower the energy transfered throuh the wedge and hitting the ships will not large enough to penetrate the radiation shields. Most of the energy will simply will not hit the ship at all.

[Xon]

Connor MacLeod, one kicker about the Wedge/sidewall is it is described as a gravity wave. Which means a change in gravitational forces in the area of effect over time.

Could you please be a bit more specific as to which partticular complaint you were rebutting?

This bit;

Anyhow, its not going to convert it into vapor, unless we're talking of innumerable individual fields acting on every single molecule or some technobabble "distingetration into molecules" effect.

When they are naturally occuring "gravity waves" in hyperspace which are stationary as well as ones oscillating between different locations, the direction of the gravitational force is not garrientied to be uniform

[Connor MacLeod]

When they are naturally occuring "gravity waves" in hyperspace which are stationary as well as ones oscillating between different locations, the direction of the gravitational force is not garrientied to be uniform

Which could indicate random "scattering" in directions, but I hardly see how this proves vaporization.

[Connor MacLeod]

Exactly... the moment the top of the missile is hitting the wedge it is accelerated sidewards ( but the rest of the missiles is not )... this stress is ripping the missile appart and if it's strong enough it should rip the missile apart one atom layer after another one.

If the differences in forces it is experiencing are enough, however. But that's just going to rip the missile apartt at most.. its not neccesarily going to vaporize it (if anything, the debris will just get accelerated in teh direction the wedge is facing.)

Are we supposed to assume its somehow doing this rapidly enough to induce some sort tof vibration in the missile?

The front part of the missile ( inside the wedge ) is accelerated wit a million g sidewards... the aft part is no accelerated at all from the wedge. That is the same situation as if you fall into a black hole.

Yes, but this is tidal forces, not energy input to induce phase changes in matter.

The object gets a lot of energy... kinetic energy. And it's not done at once to the the incoming object but part by part when the object enters the wedge.

Kinetic energy is energy of motion. Its not going to vaporize anything unless it has something solid (or solid acting) to work against. What is the missile supposedly running into in the wedge that turns all this KE to thermal energy. (for that matter, the sidewards acceleration it could possibly produce isn't going to be nearly as much as a chunk of debris moving at near-c. Most of the energy in such a case would likely come from the projectile itself.)

Sorry, I though it was clear we are talking about objects without their own wedge. A missile with a wedge ( or even a smaller ship ) would be vaporized by it's own "exploding" wedge long before the ships body hits the wedge itself.
I'm talking about the situation when an inert object ( missile without active drive, asteroid, ect. ) hits a wedge.

It still doesn't work. A gravitational field is going to change the velocity/KE of the missile, but its not neccesarily going to heat it up (unless it rapidly decelerates it in a fashion simialr to hitting a brick wall, ,and I don't think gravity can act that way. EM fields can, but gravity isn't electromagnetism.)

They rely on a "ripple"/wave in the lowest layer of hyperspace...if these ripples cannot penetrate a wedge it would explain the effect well.

The sensors of the detecting vessel read the ripples (IE the emissions) generated by the presence of gravitational fields of a given strength (in hyperspacec, ,as I understand it) There's nothing there that requires penetration of the wedge (passive sensors DON'T penetrate, active sensors do.)

Theoretically some part of the lasers energy would penetrate the wedge and hit the ship if it hits the wedge in the right direction... that's why I always said NO when someone asked me if the wedge would block things like a superlaser.

The point is, its an inconsistecy with what is supposed to happen, suggesting the wedge (and possibly the energy weapons themselves) are not true gravity (for the wedge) or true lasers (for the laser/graser.)

But without knowing the strength of both wedges and without much more firepower the energy transfered throuh the wedge and hitting the ships will not large enough to penetrate the radiation shields. Most of the energy will simply will not hit the ship at all.

They can even scan the inner wedge, they just can't do it reliably. And they can make estimates based on capability, since the wedge (and its effects) are not vastly inconsistent from navy to navy. Weber's own statements would tend to support that idea.