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StarshipTitanic, I love how you have nothing to actually say to me, but just blather on after a post of yours was outright refuted. Tell me that Google Chrome crashed on you again.

StarshipTitanic wrote:You're right, I really need to stop talking big shit and just post my 70 page thesis about The Phantom Menace.

Oh... Ohhhhh...

Yeah it's a 108 pages now as you can see from my posting last night. And from what I can see in that thread, after all your talk you refused to even read it for real. Not that I really care.

Jim Raynor wrote:It was not a newly hatched plan. Sidious clearly told them to "accelerate" their plans by launching the invasion. The invasion was a part of the plan all along. The Trade Federation was reluctant at the moment to go ahead, but Sidious pushed them along.

"But is invasion legal?" Nute Gunray asked that in the middle of the movie. If the invasion was part of the plan all along then why the fuck would he act all surprised and ask the question? Also Trade Federation was "reluctant" but Sidious pushed them along. A state was reluctant to go to war but some guy in a hood pushed them along. And this is not stupid? The reason for Trade Federation's cooperation with Sidious and reason for separatism are one of the most important questions of the prequels. I'm still waiting for you to point out where they are explored.

Jim Raynor wrote:Please stop making up arguments for Stoklasa. I'm also not seeing the logic behind going along with a couple of murders (that can be covered up or brushed aside), and openly admitting major military aggression against an entire world before proceeding to do so.

I'm not making anything up, he states so in his commentary. And you still failed to provide any explanation for why they would decide to murder Jedi Knights instead of simply turning them around or providing more demands to stall the situation. Murdering diplomatic envoys brings them absolutely no advantage and if they are discovered public outrage at such a cold blooded murder could be even greater than a relatively bloodless invasion.

Jim Raynor wrote:You need to come up with better stuff. The Jedi deceptively boarded the Droid Control Ship under the guise of mere "ambassadors." The Chancellor and the Jedi were gambling that the Trade Federation would be too spineless and frightened to do anything once they were there. A gamble that almost paid off. They didn't predict that they would have to "take on the fleet," Qui-Gon outright calls the Trade Federation "cowards" and predicts that the "negotiations will be short."

You're making shit up. They were officially envoys sent by the Chancellor. The fact that they could wave a lightsaber around makes absolutely no difference. And if the Jedi and the Chancellor were gambling that an entire geopolitical entity will be deterred by a couple of guys that can whirl a lighstaber around they are fucking morons. And if the geopolitical entity was actually cowed by a couple of guy whirling lightsabers then the script is moronic. Jedi are cool but they are not omnipotent, without their lightsaber even the most powerful have problems with bull sized animals. They won't be pushing the tide against a fleet of warships. And if the script claims they will then the scriptwriter doesn't know what the fuck is going on in his own universe.

Jim Raynor wrote:So movies suck if a supporting bit character's murderous obsessions don't make a whole lot of sense? A murderous obsession that's practically played for comic effect?

Since the repeated murder attempts were what alerts the Republic to the creation of droid army yes movie does indeed suck or rather it would suck less if the murder plot had an actual logical explanation.

Jim Raynor wrote:Do you seriously see no other benefit in plotting Padme's murder other than to satisfy Gunray? Padme is a Senator leading the movement against the militarization act. She seeks to defuse all the hostilities and end the Separatist movement through peaceful means. Palpatine wants an army and a war. Did you really ignore all these important things while going after Nute freaking Gunray?

As Stoklasa said in his review while discussing this it should be obvious to all characters that "Palpatine is behind it all". Instead Amidala thinks that "count Dooku is behind this". Why? As far as she knows he is a separatist leader. She doesn't know that he is in cahoots with Sidious and thus wants the war. As far as she knows he wants to secede from the Republic as easily and quickly as possible.

Jim Raynor wrote:Jesus Christ. I already went over this in my previous post. If you aren't stupidly taking every single word literally, you would see that Gunray was just being a nagging bitch. If he was serious about not signing the treaty, then you'd think that maybe he would speak up during the big meeting? Instead of just letting Dooku talk for him, and make promises for the Trade Federation?

Obviously we all know that Nute Gunray did join the separatists even when Amidala survived. Which doesn't really change anything. Nute Gunray obviously wasn't in on the big plan so from his perspective alerting the Republic by trying to kill Amidala made no sense. Previously you said he was obsesses but now he is just "nagging"? Why the fuck is he nagging at all? He should simply wait until the Separatis are victorious and then off her if he is so into killing her for personal pleasure.

Jim Raynor wrote:It's stupid that you can't seem to understand things. Dooku is a traitor playing both sides, OK? He's working for Palpatine, and his only actual objective is to cause a war.

And Padme's motivation doesn't end at stopping her own government from militarizing and protecting itself. She's a loyal Republic Senator. Her objective is to peacefully destroy the Separatist movement with dialogue. Her death could be used to increase hostilities on both sides, since the Republic (under Palpatine's control) blames the Separatists for her murder.

Wait really? Dooku is actually working for both sides? Wow. I never caught that the movie is so complex and smart.
No shit. But Gunray wasn't in on the plan and as far as he and Amidala knew Dooku was a separatist. There was no logic for them to try and kill her even as they are churning droids.
DOOKU: When their droids are combined with ours we will have a greatest army in the galaxy. Not even the Republic will be able to stand in our way.
DOOKU: It doesn't seem possible [that the Republic got an army that big]. They will pay for this trachery.

Get it? Separatists weren't in on it. Their plan was to spring their army on the unsuspecting Republic and force it to recognize their independence and they weren't at all swayed by Amidalas peaceful negotiations. They were perfectly willing to publicly execute her Roman style. And the crowds were CHEERING. So this attempt of yours to portray Amidala as some kind of actual threat to war is bullshit.

Jim Raynor wrote:With Dooku dead, the Separatist fleet routed at Coruscant, the Outer Rim under siege, and the Separatist leaders on the run for their very lives, I seriously doubt Grievous gave a shit about paying proper respect by then.

Wow Republic managed to hold on to their capital planet and Separatist leader was assassinated by infiltrators. And something called "Outer Rim" was under siege (note the word under siege not conquered). That certainly means the war is over and the best course of is to hide on some barren rock. If Griveous no longer paid proper respect then he should've been FIRED instead of obeyed like they did.

Jim Raynor wrote:I demand an explanation for how Admiral Ozzel got to where he was.

If Admiral Ozzel outranked the Emperor I would certainly agree with the need to explain where the hell he came from. Since he was just an admiral there is no need.
Grivous outranked Gunray and Dooku outranked Griveous. Since Gunray was introduced as the leader of Trade Federation then there should be at least some explanation who these people are and why they are above Gunray. Dooku was a former Jedi. Why is he now a leader? When Germany, Italy and Japan formed Axis did they appoint some unknown doofus as their leader? Or did the leadership stem from whose country was more powerful and wasn't actually formalized?

Jim Raynor wrote:He's an "unknown" now? Funny, because I remember him being previously announced to the Separatist leadership. He's in a Separatist command center, and Sidious would have no doubt given him whatever access and passwords or codes he would've needed.

Wow he was ANNOUNCED. That totally justifies letting him armed into their chamber protected by 2 useless droids. And Sidious provided him with whatever access and password codes he would need for deactivating Separatist army? Should I even bother to ask why the fuck he had those codes?

Jim Raynor wrote:The top civilian and military leaders are dead. The fleet and the army were defeated in major battles. The war might not have even been going well for the Separatists up to that point. A very general statement about the Republic "crumbling" in the opening crawl as its capital is besieged does not mean that everything is going well for the Confederacy everywhere else.

How is Republic "crumbling" if the war is not going well for Separatists? How is there a fleet of separatist warships all around Coruscant? This is the culmination of 3 years of warfare, Separatists are at the heart of the Republic but whoops Dooku was killed...and Griveous....the war is over....go to some volcanic planet....here is a dipshit with a lightsaber you never met before...he will "take care of you"...but Sidious who failed us in invasion of Naboo and got us arrested and duped us into a devastating war promised us peace why are you killing us Lord Vader?

Just to clarify I certainly don't think are the worst thing "ever" as Stoklasa puts it nor do I regret the money paid to see them movies in theater and even he is probably joking about how bad it was however the movies had huge and obvious flaws and would've been greatly improved had Lucas hired more capable scriptwriters.

at the end of the day, the prequels were simply lackluster to the original trilogy. If those had never been made I don't think this trilogy would have made it past the first film being released in the theater. The other 2 would have been straight to DVD

Why? Because you say so?

It's this thing called storytelling and character development

In other words, you're presenting your ill-informed opinions as facts.

Elfdart wrote:In other words, you're presenting your ill-informed opinions as facts.

I'm sorry, is every time someone expresses an opinion supposed to be accompanied by a disclaimer to the effect of "AND THIS IS OF COURSE JUST MY OPINION AND NOT A FACT"? Because it's pretty fucking obvious when people are expressing their subjective viewpoints. You even get an obvious indicator in the "I don't think..." part of his post. Pretending that he intended it as an objective fact is extremely dishonest.

This has moved beyond you debunking bad arguments and straight into prequel defense force mode where you won't accept people posting any reason for why they don't like it or what they think about it.

adam_grif wrote:

Elfdart wrote:In other words, you're presenting your ill-informed opinions as facts.

I'm sorry, is every time someone expresses an opinion supposed to be accompanied by a disclaimer to the effect of "AND THIS IS OF COURSE JUST MY OPINION AND NOT A FACT"? Because it's pretty fucking obvious when people are expressing their subjective viewpoints. You even get an obvious indicator in the "I don't think..." part of his post. Pretending that he intended it as an objective fact is extremely dishonest.

This has moved beyond you debunking bad arguments and straight into prequel defense force mode where you won't accept people posting any reason for why they don't like it or what they think about it.

Actually, yes, yes it would be nice. If all you have is a simple one liner about how bad the prequels suck, one should either think the poster is making a worthless comment about their subjective view on the story, or a worthless analysis based on nothing. Generally, the board is one of debate, so most would err on the side of worthless analysis and go from there. His thread about Jar Jar isn't helping him on this one either but I'm not a mod so I'll let them worry about that one.

So, yeah, I think every time someone wants to put a worthless subjective opinion on something up on the board, they should disclaimer it as such or something akin to 'but I don't want to get into it' or 'it's just my opinion backed by nothing but my personal taste' or else most people here will just assume they have a reason but are chickenshit to state it.

Elfdart wrote:In other words, you're presenting your ill-informed opinions as facts.

Considering I originally wrote " I don't think this trilogy would have made it past the first film being released in the theater." I would have thought it obvious even to a half-dead woodchuck with glaucoma who can only read Swahili that I was stating my opinion. When a person says or writes "I think" or "I don't think" it is generally considered that they are stating their opinion and not fact.

A better response would have been "Well, that's your opinion."

If all you have is a simple one liner about how bad the prequels suck, one should either think the poster is making a worthless comment about their subjective view on the story, or a worthless analysis based on nothing.

Or it could be based on his own 400 page essay about how much the movie blows, but what would it matter? What he said basically boiled down to "it sucks, I don't like it". But "it sucks" can never be construed as a statement about objective reality (i.e. a fact) unless the person you're talking to doesn't have any idea about the inherent subjectivity of opinions. That's something that there is no real reason to assume. I repeat; regardless of whether this is based on analysis, valid or invalid, or just his gut feelings, there's no reason to assume he was stating that the movie sucked as a "fact".

This guy like has 10 posts and he's already being descended upon by a pack of vultures ready to savage him for not being intimately familiar with the board's culture. This forum is about as hospitable as a Siberian winter.

A better response would have been "Well, that's your opinion."

That would have been a more polite response certainly, but your post should have just been ignored since it wasn't contributing anything to the discussion.

That would have been a more polite response certainly, but your post should have just been ignored since it wasn't contributing anything to the discussion.

Well I apologize that my comment didn't reach the lofty standards expected on such a heady discussion about a movie review and a rebuttal to a movie review done by a character who is a hundred year old drunk serial killer

Yes, SDN is kind of like professional food critics spending all of their time tasting grilled cheese sandwhiches and fried eggs, but that's the way it is.