SD.Net in The Sea Of Time

[Knife]

However, there should be a decent stock of anti biotics at the local hospital and clinic, plus what ever prescriptions that exist in peoples homes.

[Patrick Ogaard]

And a link to a newspaper article about Nantucket's water supply (if the link works):
http://www.nantucketindependent.com/new ... e/001.html

If the group manages not to screw up the system, it should work just fine to provide enough water for the new population's needs.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Oh dear. I suppose our only saving grace will be that hopefully the majority of our population won't stand fleas having gone our lives without having to deal with the parasites, and our knowledge of how critical hygiene is making it one of our top priorities, just behind food I would think. More worrying I suppose would be the migration of the rats on the island to the mainland. I know that rats can swim and swim well, but can they make the hop from Nantucket to Martha's Vineyard to the mainland without stowing away on boats? Would they if they could? And once on the mainland, how ecologically damaging would they be? I suppose the rats on the island may be more dangerous to the indigenous peoples than us if they carry Y. pestis.

I am not sure if they are capable of that level of endurance. However with boats we will need to be very careful.

In any event though, one of the first things we do should be to put in place a quarantine protocol in the event of communicable disease.

One of the reasons we do so well against modern disease is not just the increase in basic sanitation, and genetic resistance, but also good nutrition and a lack of thermal, osmotic, and nutritional stress. All of these things are going to be... bad.

Fuel is limited to we will be cold in winter and hot in summer. That releases corticosteroids which depress the immune system. Also: before anyone says "we are endotherms!!!" Yes. Yes we are. Maintaining a stable body temperature (thus allowing our thermally sensitive enzymes to do their thing) takes energy. Lots of it. There is a reason why reptiles have a size corrected resting metabolic rate that is 1/10th ours.


The problem with the water supply is that it must be actively pumped, and the system maintained. We will have no way of maintaining said pumps, or supplying them with sufficient energy...eventually. In other words, they will work for a while, but eventually will break down in such a way that we will not be able to replace them.

Eventually, we (or our progeny) will deal with dehydration, and/or waterborn gut pathogens like giardia, salmonella and protists... This increases osmotic stress, increases corticosteroids, depresses immune system. Same with hunger. Lack of vital nutrients, social unrest. All of it.

This is separate from inherent effects of poor nutrition as well. When food is limited your body has to trade off what it uses energy for. Reproduction, growth, fighting off disease. If you dont have sufficient food to swamp this tradeoff, one of those things will suffer and as a result you will suffer.

So even simple diseases will probably be much nastier than they would otherwise be.

However, there should be a decent stock of anti biotics at the local hospital and clinic, plus what ever prescriptions that exist in peoples homes.

Which is why I said that our ability to deal with infection will decrease with time. Those resources are non-renewable. Some things we can renew, like aspirin. Tetracyclin, not so much.

Basically, I suppose every available and improvisable rat trap should be employed, and any non-domesticated rats encountered should be destroyed. Also, any boats heading to or from the island should be carefully checked from stem to stern and port to starboard for unwanted passengers. A policy requiring ship's cats and, possibly, ship's dogs might also have to be instituted, with the requirement that they be neutered males so if they do jump ship they won't give rise to feral populations down the road.

that little Jack Russell Terrier just became everyone's best friend. The problem with cats is that they will not preferentially target pest animals. Many of the non-pest animals we will want to keep around in sustainable populations for food (song birds for example). Cat populations decimate those.

Actually one of the best animals we could keep around are rat snakes and black racers. They dont exist on the island, but they would be easy to find on the mainland. They can exist on the island they just have not migrated. They will decimate rodent populations via nest raiding.

[Solauren]

Depending on the number of animals in nantucket, there should be enough Cat's to control the mouse/rat problem.

Especially if we have even one unfixed male and female cat. There is no way in hell we'd know how to 'fix' them safely, and they'll breed.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Depending on the number of animals in nantucket, there should be enough Cat's to control the mouse/rat problem.

Especially if we have even one unfixed male and female cat. There is no way in hell we'd know how to 'fix' them safely, and they'll breed.

And they unfortunately cause their own problems. feral cats do... unpleasant things. We will for example rely on birds as a food source. Birds do not do well with large cat populations. Moreover the cats probably dont do a very good job of controlling rodent populations unless cat populations are huge. They cant get into the nests and cut the bottom out of the population. Terriers and snakes can, snakes are native, and terriers can be controlled and trained better than a cat can.

We will want something that is either under our direct control (IE a trained dog) or will reach a natural equilibrium with rat populations. Cats do neither.

[The Spartan]

Would raising batches of brewers yeast help with the flea problem? I've been told that feeding that to dogs acts as a natural flea repellent, but, assuming that's true, does it also work with humans?

[Alferd Packer]

Would raising batches of brewers yeast help with the flea problem? I've been told that feeding that to dogs acts as a natural flea repellent, but, assuming that's true, does it also work with humans?

Cedar oil is also apparently an effective repellent, and it probably works on other pests, too.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Would raising batches of brewers yeast help with the flea problem? I've been told that feeding that to dogs acts as a natural flea repellent, but, assuming that's true, does it also work with humans?

There's a beer brewery on the island, so the trick would be to maintain viable cultures based on whatever is on hand at the brewery, along with the on-island bakeries and the on-island hobby bakers. Maintaining the yeast cultures would be important in any event, even if just as a source of leavening and as a nutritional supplement.

[Solauren]

Depending on the number of animals in nantucket, there should be enough Cat's to control the mouse/rat problem.

Especially if we have even one unfixed male and female cat. There is no way in hell we'd know how to 'fix' them safely, and they'll breed.

And they unfortunately cause their own problems. feral cats do... unpleasant things. We will for example rely on birds as a food source. Birds do not do well with large cat populations. Moreover the cats probably dont do a very good job of controlling rodent populations unless cat populations are huge. They cant get into the nests and cut the bottom out of the population. Terriers and snakes can, snakes are native, and terriers can be controlled and trained better than a cat can.

We will want something that is either under our direct control (IE a trained dog) or will reach a natural equilibrium with rat populations. Cats do neither.

Cat's deal with other pests, but I agree with the 'feral cats' problem.

Hence, Cat's also become a food stable.

[LadyTevar]

I think we will be well into the "starving for meat" phase before any one here *seriously* starts thinking about eating pets (cats or dogs).

I have to wonder if any of the Bed&Breakfasts keep their own gardens, especially herb gardens. I know some like to have their own, fresh supply for cooking. That right there will liven up any soup/stew or fire-burned meat we manage to acquire, as well as help with pickling and canning. Plus, with care, a herb garden is maintainable.

Has anyone thought about Sugar?

[Academia Nut]

The problem with the water supply is that it must be actively pumped, and the system maintained. We will have no way of maintaining said pumps, or supplying them with sufficient energy...eventually. In other words, they will work for a while, but eventually will break down in such a way that we will not be able to replace them.

Eventually, we (or our progeny) will deal with dehydration, and/or waterborn gut pathogens like giardia, salmonella and protists... This increases osmotic stress, increases corticosteroids, depresses immune system. Same with hunger. Lack of vital nutrients, social unrest. All of it.

Why must the breaking down of the initial system herald the return of waterborne parasites? Can't we build newer, less technologically advanced pumps? Can't we boil the water we do take? Now, those won't be as good as modern systems for producing and supplying potable water, but we know what the problem we're facing is, so why can't we use that knowledge to mitigate the problem as much as possible?

Now, I'm not saying we won't be suffering more from stress from malnutrition and such than we are now, but since we already know what needs to get done and that a solution does exist, why can't we find a solutions to dampen the effects of the loss of technology as much as possible?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Why must the breaking down of the initial system herald the return of waterborne parasites? Can't we build newer, less technologically advanced pumps? Can't we boil the water we do take? Now, those won't be as good as modern systems for producing and supplying potable water, but we know what the problem we're facing is, so why can't we use that knowledge to mitigate the problem as much as possible?

The energy required to operate a pump like that I imagine is not small. However that is unqualified because I do not know, nor am I in a position to evaluate the properties of the aquifer which will dictate how much energy it takes to suck water out of it. CaptainChewbacca would be potentially.

But boiling just for drinking water takes time and energy, energy well spent, but it makes it difficult to stockpile reserves and makes logistics more of a challenge (the need to supply water to various places is more difficult unless you can pressurize pipes). Now we may be able to kill two birds with one stone, boiling water and using the steam(via turbine) to turn an alternator and create some electricity and then siphon off some of the water for drinking water. But that as well would require a lot of fuel in any case. Basically the energy tradeoff makes it more probable that we will be relying on water from a watershed, and individually boiling drinking water, some people will get tired of this/not have the necessary fuel, and will end up drinking contaminated water.

[Academia Nut]

Ah. Okay, I get the thrust of your argument now, its just that you made it sound like we'd be going back to scratch as soon as the diesel ran out. Of course, I'm pretty sure Tevar already mentioned that there are a couple of sites where coal has been exposed by a river with access to the ocean, so once we start running into situations where the wood supplies get scarce we would hopefully be on stable enough footing that we could start exploiting fossil fuels.

As for the idea of using the steam from a power generation plant... haven't there been designs in the past where the steam is used for the heating of homes after driving the turbines? We've got enough engineers on board that the problem could probably be tackled, at least on a small scale, within a decade or two of arrival, which would be around the point where the older stuff would start breaking down in a permanent way. It's actually quite amazing how simple a lot of the stuff for the Industrial Revolution was in hindsight, its just that there was a lot of theoretical work that had to go into things first that required lots of resources to support the people doing the research.

[Darth Wong]

I don't think people appreciate the sheer quantity of fuel required by a typical power plant. Modern workers bring in the fuel with a daily stream of dump trucks! We'd be better off strictly rationing electricity and using small-scale power generation.

[Academia Nut]

Hmmm... yes, there is that, although I suppose the question is just how much energy we would actually need? As a modern society we have a shit-load of wants, but how much do we actually need? For example, indoor plumbing for everyone is technically a want, but couldn't we produce a couple of central distribution sites that produce pre-boiled water that people could get their supplies from? Fountains were originally intended for pretty much just that, an extension of the town well that also showed off just how prosperous the builders were. We could use converted swimming pools as centralized storage distribution centres, with the added bonus that could use the showers as public baths. Sure you have to go out of the home for your bath and you have to lug your water around, but its better than getting sick or going thirsty. Plus it would have the effect of fostering a community spirit by making central meeting places where everyone can go and relax.

[Alyrium Denryle]

To put the amount of energy required to boil enough drinking water per day fore 3600 people... 2,770,560,000 joules. Just to get it to 100 degrees C with no inefficiency. That means 115 kg of refined coal per day just to boil enough water.

[Crayz9000]

Well, one thing we need to make sure of is that the sewer system on the island continues to work properly. We can easily work things like toilets with non-potable water, so we only really need treated water for showers and drinking. But either way, the sewage system is very important for sanitation.

Now, about the power... I agree with Wong -- I doubt it would be worth it to run the main powerplant on the island. However, the alternators from the plant would be very valuable in the long term, even if we don't run them with diesel engines. So it's something worth sealing up to make sure the elements don't damage it.

By the way, this Mass.gov PDF has information on the three primary wells that supply Nantucket's water, as well as hazards around them. Wannacomet Water Company does not do any treatment to the water; the watersheds are protected zones, and apparently that has been sufficient to keep things working smoothly.

So this is good news. There is no water treatment plant to keep running -- we just need to keep the well and pressure pumps running, as well as pipe maintenance. That's going to be the biggest issue in the long term.

[Patrick Ogaard]

On the sugar front, there are quite a few hobbyist beekeepers on the island, so some people will have to volunteer to wear the bee beard and tend the hives. A supply of honey should stretch the available stocks of sugar somewhat. More important, though, is that Nantucket should be within easy sailing distance of some prime sugar maple territory.

One of the earliest major expeditions of the island's new tenants might be to establish a coastal outpost in an area like Vermont, for the express purpose of harvesting maple sap and processing it into products from maple syrup to maple sugar.

[Alferd Packer]

Hmmm... yes, there is that, although I suppose the question is just how much energy we would actually need? As a modern society we have a shit-load of wants, but how much do we actually need? For example, indoor plumbing for everyone is technically a want, but couldn't we produce a couple of central distribution sites that produce pre-boiled water that people could get their supplies from? Fountains were originally intended for pretty much just that, an extension of the town well that also showed off just how prosperous the builders were. We could use converted swimming pools as centralized storage distribution centres, with the added bonus that could use the showers as public baths. Sure you have to go out of the home for your bath and you have to lug your water around, but its better than getting sick or going thirsty. Plus it would have the effect of fostering a community spirit by making central meeting places where everyone can go and relax.

Community showers/bathrooms will be a must. To be perfectly disgusting, human poop can and should be composted, because we're going to need a lot of fertilizer come spring.

[PeZook]

There's going to be a lot of smelly jobs on Nantucket: composting, fish processing, hunting, glue-making, sewage disposal and (obviously) farming...

Establishing good hygene is a must

[KrauserKrauser]

I would think that most of the jobs will be quite smelly/dirty. Most of history is that way once you get past the glossy cover we've placed on it.

I couldn't find specific evidence of it but if there are sugar beets in either the established farms or even a hobbyist garden that should solve all of our sugar problems and then some.

[Coyote]

Would it be smart to pick one of the larger boats, say, a small freighter or something, and just let it be our sole area of power? Run off of batteries, and fire up the engine to keep them charged, and anything that needs power can be taken to that ship and plugged in aboard it? Everything else would be old-fashioned wood fires.

Also, the notion of bunking in the guesthouses, hotels, and B&Bs is good because they'll have the kitchen tools (big pots, etc) all ready set to feed masses of people. If we pick a single ship to be a power source, we can also run a soup kitchen from the galley. Line up on the dock every afternoon for a ladle of soup, and that'd be lunch for the masses during the workday.

[Alferd Packer]

Since there are bound to an abundance of small-to-medium generators on the island, it's simply easier to power stuff on site with syngas derived from biomass. Also offers greater redundancy and comfort. Who's going to want to wait in an exposed line two hundred deep for a bowl of soup while it's sleeting out?

[Knife]

Depends on what you mean by 'power things'.

Local on site 'power' from sources like Packer are talking about, a wood gass powered generator, to run limited lighting, ventilation if we're packing large groups into high pop-density housing, and kitchen and tool shop facilities. If we want to set up a 'power generator' for sewage pumps or water pumps, then a dedicated large scale system would make sense, but I think we'd still want some local power sources.

[The Spartan]

Something else just occurred to me regarding long term food supplies and storage. If we can secure a supply of apples, i.e. plant an orchard, we can store the apples in sealed barrels at the bottom of lakes. They used to do that before refrigeration so that fresh apples were available year round to help fight off scurvy and the like.

Since we're being dropped into a town we can presumably get plenty of seeds from the grocery stores and houses when we scrounge for apples to eat and dry.