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The impression I got was that Pike and Spock were the only proper officers aboard, so selecting a 2iC from among the cadets would have been a case of "eeny meeny miny mo".

Kirk would be a teeny tiny mo, what with being suspended and all.

I took it as Pike doing one last thing to try and shove Kirk into the right direction. He won't be facing repercussions about his actions if Nero's going to spear him anyway, and if by some miracle he doesn't die in the next twenty minutes it means Kirk-as-XO paid off. Pike knows Kirk's character, he knows his performance at the Academy, he makes one last grand gesture for George Kirk's boy.

Except in a real warship you have a chain of command which doesn't stop two persons in, and a cadet getting promoted to XO would be a slap in the face and would piss a shit load of people off.

The movie is by far not perfect, but I think they wanted to sacrifice some development to get to what they think is the real story (Kirk in command), though I will be the first to say that there are better ways to accomplish that goal. Personally, I think the next one will be much better in terms of plot.

I think one of the unfortunate things lost in the streamlining of the story is just what a whiz kid Kirk is. I believe the authors have said that the intent is that he is one of the very top seniors at the Academy...despite only being there for three years. Assuming that all of the command-track personnel on Enterprise are breveted cadets, he is at least an adequate candidate for first officer.

Pike also may have wanted to give Kirk the authority to be in charge of the away team. By default, the commander of the away team would probably be Olson, seeing that he was the senior engineer. However, as rapidly becomes apparent, the man is a bit of a nutty thrill-seeker despite what I presume is copious engineering talent. So making Kirk XO puts him in command of the team and solidifies the undetermined command structure of the cadet-filled ship in Pike's absence, in one stroke. (Remember that McCoy has no idea who will command the ship once Spock steps down, until Sulu points out that Kirk is XO.) It's a cheesy movie-moment, sure, but it kinda-almost-works.

Of course, this is undermined if one assumes that Lt. Sulu and Ens. Chekov are full officers when we are introduced to them. Either should therefore be senior to Kirk and, indeed, everyone. But this isn't a given (since Uhura is referred to as a Lt. as soon as the crisis starts), and even if we assume so, Pike was recently given reason to doubt Sulu's competence and Chekov clearly does not have any business being in charge of the whole ship.

Anguirus wrote:I think one of the unfortunate things lost in the streamlining of the story is just what a whiz kid Kirk is. I believe the authors have said that the intent is that he is one of the very top seniors at the Academy...despite only being there for three years. Assuming that all of the command-track personnel on Enterprise are breveted cadets, he is at least an adequate candidate for first officer.

If he's such a genius cadet, why does he appear to be ignorant of the regulations concerning cheating on Academy tests? One does not get the impression that he expected to face any consequences.

The Kobayashi Maru has always been difficult to rationalize, but to say the movie did a poor job of it is understatement. He was about to get run out of town on a rail but got saved by the bell. It's funny, but also stupid.

Darth Wong wrote:

Anguirus wrote:I think one of the unfortunate things lost in the streamlining of the story is just what a whiz kid Kirk is. I believe the authors have said that the intent is that he is one of the very top seniors at the Academy...despite only being there for three years. Assuming that all of the command-track personnel on Enterprise are breveted cadets, he is at least an adequate candidate for first officer.

If he's such a genius cadet, why does he appear to be ignorant of the regulations concerning cheating on Academy tests? One does not get the impression that he expected to face any consequences.

The Kobayashi Maru has always been difficult to rationalize, but to say the movie did a poor job of it is understatement. He was about to get run out of town on a rail but got saved by the bell. It's funny, but also stupid.

I've only seen the film once, but I thought McCoy said he would probably be let off? Now maybe McCoy was just trying to reassure Kirk, but it seemed like any discipline he received would probably be minor, not "run out of town on a rail." He was after all a decent student, and he'd already taken the test fair and square (twice), hence fulling the requirements for graduation as for as the Kobayashi Maru was concerned. His "cheating" seemed more like a prank than actually failing the requirements for graduation.

At least, that's the impression I have based on the film. So in short, he might very well have expected to get off (helps that he's rather arrogant too). I don't think he was unaware of regulations, he just chose to ignore them (Spock refers to Kirk's tendencies in this respect near the end of the film of course, with regard to Kirk's plan being against regulations).

Bounty wrote:http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/artic ... t.htm#size

Behold, a truly sad piece of fan delusion.

*Scratches head*

Is he not capable of fathoming that this movie is a clean break? Even if Spock is from the Prime universe, that doesn't mean he traveled into his own past. The new movie represents an entirely new Trek universe. For reasons we do not know, they decided to build their ships significantly larger. Its really that simple. There needs be nothing else to say. His talk about a "compromise" size just makes me cringe. He won't accept the stated size but will compromise his beliefs but still not accept the stated size. Whatever. Our friend at EAS has allowed his personal feelings to compromise his judgment.

As has been discussed, he's reacting as though his father just told him he was adopted. He'll go on pretending it isn't true and hope for the best.

Alyeska wrote:His talk about a "compromise" size just makes me cringe.

Compromiseprise. Oh god, Stark's gonna kill me

If he's such a genius cadet, why does he appear to be ignorant of the regulations concerning cheating on Academy tests? One does not get the impression that he expected to face any consequences.

The Kobayashi Maru has always been difficult to rationalize, but to say the movie did a poor job of it is understatement. He was about to get run out of town on a rail but got saved by the bell. It's funny, but also stupid.

I think the hearing was going to go Kirk's way. McCoy seemed to think so, and as per Star Trek II, a similar incident in the OTL got Kirk a commendation. I think that Kirk had a good idea that this would lead to a positive result...he didn't strike me as the type to torpedo his whole career just to make an inane point.

Note that Kirk also seems to have an encyclopedic knowledge of Starfleet regulations as per the Delta Vega scene (citing the exact one that Spock violated). He also didn't throw a fit when he was grounded...the questionable way by which he gained access to the Enterprise was pretty much all McCoy's doing.

Darth Wong wrote:If he's such a genius cadet, why does he appear to be ignorant of the regulations concerning cheating on Academy tests? One does not get the impression that he expected to face any consequences.

The Kobayashi Maru has always been difficult to rationalize, but to say the movie did a poor job of it is understatement. He was about to get run out of town on a rail but got saved by the bell. It's funny, but also stupid.

Perhaps he knew that the scenario couldn't be beaten conventionally, so he thought it necessary to beat it by attacking its validity in a courtroom setting.

Anguirus wrote:I think the hearing was going to go Kirk's way. McCoy seemed to think so, and as per Star Trek II, a similar incident in the OTL got Kirk a commendation. I think that Kirk had a good idea that this would lead to a positive result...he didn't strike me as the type to torpedo his whole career just to make an inane point.

Explain how. Until much later in the movie Kirk is depicted as pretty much a complete moron. McCoy saying shit doesn't mean shit, and he was getting heavily dressed down - even if he WASN'T expelled, they're not going to forget that and it'd probably hurt his career. Oops, no. lol!

he was getting heavily dressed down

Not by the Academy as part of a standard procedure, but by Spock filing a personal accusation. Seems like he was the only one to actually take offence at Kirk's actions; remember, the officer actually overseeing the test didn't file the complaint, it was the guy who wrote the software.

As said before, Kirk had taken the test legitimately twice before, he cheated in a way that was blatantly obvious to anyone monitoring, and completing the test successfully isn't even a requirement to graduate. He pulled something on the level of a prank, and if it wasn't for Spock having a massive stick up his ass about his unfair test he would've gotten away with it. Once the accusation was filed the Academy couldn't ignore it, hence the "we'll look into it, you're suspended".

Alyeska wrote:For reasons we do not know, they decided to build their ships significantly larger. Its really that simple.

Could it be as simple as that the Kelvin was destroyed by a massive unknown ship, so Starfleet put more money into developing warships - hence the larger size?

Bounty wrote:Not by the Academy as part of a standard procedure, but by Spock filing a personal accusation. Seems like he was the only one to actually take offence at Kirk's actions; remember, the officer actually overseeing the test didn't file the complaint, it was the guy who wrote the software.

As said before, Kirk had taken the test legitimately twice before, he cheated in a way that was blatantly obvious to anyone monitoring, and completing the test successfully isn't even a requirement to graduate. He pulled something on the level of a prank, and if it wasn't for Spock having a massive stick up his ass about his unfair test he would've gotten away with it. Once the accusation was filed the Academy couldn't ignore it, hence the "we'll look into it, you're suspended".

LOL. The test is so 'unfair' Starfleet is happy with it, allows people to resit it, and has used it for years. Cheating is cheating, bucko, and since it's just used as part of the frankly juvenile CHEATING IS GOOD, do DUMB SHIT that through DUMB LUCK works = YOU A GENIUS bullshit it's stupid. It's pretty funny that Spock was being a cunt because the test admin laughed at his 'unbeatable test' being defeated by probably illegal tampering by a retard with the emotional age of 7.

I'm still curious as to how anyone watching the movie can describe to me how Kirk is a good officer beyond 'cheats' and 'is saved by plot'. He's a jackass reckless moron who can't deal with failure charged with informed attributes.

I think that's besides the point. In the Prime Universe, Kirk got a commendation from his clever solution to the test, showing his ability to think outside the box and a drive to succeed. In this universe, for all we know he was lined up for said commendation (certainly nobody seemed angry with him) until a certain arrogant "green-blooded hobgoblin" decided to put him through the ringer for beating his "perfect test".

Honestly, I think they got Kirk's personality and actions down pretty good to the original character. Kirk has always "cheated", Coromite Maneuver, Vulcan Death Grip, etc. It's a basic part of his character and the thing that made him a successful officer that he took solutions that, while not always logical as Spock would point out, were usually the correct action, and I think that analyzing his actions without remembering that runs counter to what Kirk is supposed to represent as a character.

Surlethe wrote:

Alyeska wrote:For reasons we do not know, they decided to build their ships significantly larger. Its really that simple.

Could it be as simple as that the Kelvin was destroyed by a massive unknown ship, so Starfleet put more money into developing warships - hence the larger size?

No, because the Kelvin was already much larger than TOS ships.

The test is so 'unfair' Starfleet is happy with it, allows people to resit it, and has used it for years.

Yes? Good, you understood this part of the movie at least.

since it's just used as part of the frankly juvenile CHEATING IS GOOD, do DUMB SHIT that through DUMB LUCK works = YOU A GENIUS bullshit it's stupid

Did you take up headbanging as a hobby? Because you didn't use to write shit this retarded before.

Kirk's defence to being accused if cheating is admit that he cheated and pointing out that the test is rigged anyway. He didn't cheat because he didn't have the goods to pass the test, he cheated because the test cannot be passed, which he has a philosophical problem with, and he exposed that in an admittedly juvenile way. In the original universe, that got him a commendation (and was pretty much what Pike is after: someone who knows when to follow a rule and when not to if the situation calls for it). This is, in case you missed it, a theme of the movie that was explicitly explained.

Bounty wrote:

he was getting heavily dressed down

Not by the Academy as part of a standard procedure, but by Spock filing a personal accusation. Seems like he was the only one to actually take offence at Kirk's actions; remember, the officer actually overseeing the test didn't file the complaint, it was the guy who wrote the software.

As said before, Kirk had taken the test legitimately twice before, he cheated in a way that was blatantly obvious to anyone monitoring, and completing the test successfully isn't even a requirement to graduate. He pulled something on the level of a prank, and if it wasn't for Spock having a massive stick up his ass about his unfair test he would've gotten away with it. Once the accusation was filed the Academy couldn't ignore it, hence the "we'll look into it, you're suspended".

Sorry, but if someone is suspended, that pretty much proves that it is taken seriously. The fact that someone lodges a complaint does not turn a trivial incident into an important one.

Bounty wrote:Kirk's defence to being accused if cheating is admit that he cheated and pointing out that the test is rigged anyway.

The test is incredibly stupid. However, "no cheating" rules do not make an exception for badly written tests in any academic institution I have ever heard of anywhere.

He didn't cheat because he didn't have the goods to pass the test, he cheated because the test cannot be passed, which he has a philosophical problem with, and he exposed that in an admittedly juvenile way. In the original universe, that got him a commendation (and was pretty much what Pike is after: someone who knows when to follow a rule and when not to if the situation calls for it). This is, in case you missed it, a theme of the movie that was explicitly explained.

Except that he didn't know when to follow a rule and when not to. He risked sanction, suspension, and even potentially expulsion or career damage over something that didn't actually matter or have any significant value, and which was important chiefly because of his personal pride. How the fuck is that an example of knowing when to follow a rule and when not to? It's more an example of shitty risk/reward assessment skills.

Darth Wong wrote:Sorry, but if someone is suspended, that pretty much proves that it is taken seriously. The fact that someone lodges a complaint does not turn a trivial incident into an important one.

I agree with that. I'm just not convinced that the academy would have taken action without Spock's complaint. If the default response of the academy would have been to start procedures against Kirk, wouldn't you expect the complaint to be filed by the officer administering the test? There were two of them present, presumably actual instructors for that particular course, yet it's Spock who lodges the actual complaint - and he's part of the test as a programmer.

Once the complaint of cheating was made it only makes sense for Kirk to get suspended, it's pretty much the worst academic offence Kirk could commit. But considering the outcome in the regular universe (with, presumably, the same test and same cheat) and the person who lodged the actual complaint, I think it was only because of Spock getting personally offended that the matter even became a disciplinary meeting.

Bounty wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:Sorry, but if someone is suspended, that pretty much proves that it is taken seriously. The fact that someone lodges a complaint does not turn a trivial incident into an important one.

I agree with that. I'm just not convinced that the academy would have taken action without Spock's complaint.

So? If somebody cheats on an assignment in a modern university, the professor has to lodge a complaint about the student in order to start proceedings there too. It doesn't happen automatically.

Was Kirk actually suspended from the Academy, or just taken off the "cadets we are instantly making line officers" list? I don't recall it being explicitly stated, but these are rather different outcomes.

The thing that bugged me with this depiction of Kobayashi Maru is how straightforward Kirk's cheat was. I always imagined he found some clever exploit in the simulation similar how in current games certain actions can leave you with infinite ammo without you actually using cheats.
The way it was shown here Kirk might as well reprogrammed the test to display "Kirk wins! He is the smartest man in the universe!" right at the start.

I always imagined he found some clever exploit in the simulation similar how in current games certain actions can leave you with infinite ammo without you actually using cheats.

That's nothing like how Kirk described it in Star Trek II.

Yes yes but I still imagined it was something more creative like changing some seemingly unimportant and accessible parameters like the color of the ship to some unlikely value which caused an array overflow which...well you get the idea.
What Kirk had done in this film doesn't remotely deserve a commendation for original thinking he described in ST2.

^ Why not? If no one had done it before, and there were no explicit rules against it (though I imagine they were passed afterward)...

What I was hoping to hear in the movie but didn't would be something from Kirk, "A starship captain doesn't follow rules to protect his crew." What I did get from the movie is that they were trying to decide whether what Kirk did would be considered cheating.