neoBSG vs. B5 aliens

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

50kt is overkill for civilian ships. 2 strafing Vipers destroyed a transport in "33." Meanwhile in Babylon 5 Ivanova threatened a civilian captain with a 200 megawatt pulse cannon (which must be a useful weapon against fighters at least).

[Batman]

Very pretty pictures, Shep. The yield of that nuke was...?

[Nephtys]

Honestly, my interperetation of the Black Star incident was since the nuke was buried in an asteroid, kinetic impacts got the ship mostly.

Anyway, I'm fairly sure the nukes fired at galactica were in the two-digit kiloton range by dialogue sometimes during the miniseries. It was from a raider remember, firing a salvo of 4, three of which were taken out. That was either 50kt, or 65kt. There's been no mention of hits by nuclear weapons since it would seem.

[fgalkin]

Btw, Comrade Sheppard, that wouldn't be the picture of the second nuke going off and finishing the Blackstar, would it?

As for the Blackstar incident, it seems that it was thought of as a freak hit. The fact that we don't hear of any other similar incidents seems to support it. And no, super accurate point defence cannot account for it. We have seen Starfuries successfully ram Sharlins, what's to stop the EA from strapping a nuke to the hull, and try to kamikaze the boneheads when things got desperate? Yet, we've never heard of any other Minbari ship destroyed by a nuke.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Balrog]

The fact that the EM burst fooled the Cylons as well as Galactica points to the nuke being around 50kt. After all, if the Raiders had fired a 50mt nuke and got a blast ten times as weak, you'd think they'd go in to investigate, no?

[Winston Blake]

Note I haven't seen Babylon 5. There a bunch of figures on the Black Star incident on Brian Young's Babtech site. More here.

Assuming Galactica got hit by a 50kT nuke on contact, the energy delivered has to be less than half (OTOH we don't actually see the point where it hits). As a guess i'll say 40%. This gives 83.6 TJ. I'm taking 1 kg of TNT to be 4.18 MJ.

Now i'll try to find what distance those 2MT bombs would have to be to deliver the same energy to the Minbari ship. The Babtech page gives the length of a Warcruiser as 500m.


Let's assume that the area facing the bombs is about equal to a circle of radius 250m. Obviously the real Warcruiser have much less area and need to be much closer to receive the same energy.

This is what i'm going by:
Energy hitting ship / Energy released by two bombs = Area hit of ship / Area of sphere at that distance.

(40% of 50kT) / 2*(2 MT) = (pi*250m^2) / (4pi*r^2)

This gives r = 112m.

Given that the Warcruiser is 500m long, this distance looks a lot farther than that, so it was destroyed by much less energy than Galactica received when hit by an assumed 50kT nuke on contact.



I'd appreciate people checking this, since as a pure guess, taking the real area to be 30% of the circle i used, and the distance as 3 ship lengths, you getjust 139 GJ, which is only 33 tonnes of TNT. Earlier in the thread i recall multi-kT/s beam weapons, so either i'm wrong or the Black Star situation is messed up.

[Nephtys]

That sharlin tech readout is notoriously inaccurate. It's size is off by a good deal. A real Sharlin is close to 1km long.

[fgalkin]

Not to mention that it gives the "weight" of the ships as 200 million tons, and the cargo capacity as 2000 million tons.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Anguirus]

That's a NUKE hitting the battlestar? It's not a very big explosion. Compare it to the 2 MT devices used to kill the Black Star, which is much bigger than 500 meters (reference: every shot of a Sharlin in comparison to anything. That readout was never meant to be closely analyzed).

Also, there were a lot of asteroid fragments flying around, though it certainly looks as if the energy transfer from the explosions does most of the work.

But it's not just a question of durability. The Sharlin's primary weapon delivers enough energy to one-hit kill any ship in Earthforce, and it can be used at typical B5 combat ranges (hundreds or thousands of kilometers). Since the Sharlin isn't drastically more durable than an Earthforce ship (they rely on ECM to avoid gettng hit), I'd wager it's own primary weapon would certainly obliterate it. There's no reason why it can't seriously hurt the battlestar even if it is significantly more durable.

Basically, the Sharlin has no reason to stay in visual range, and it can deliver a massive blow from that distance. I know almost nothing about BSG, but does anyone know how good their sensors are? In the B5-verse, no one except the Minbari themselves and the First Ones seem to be able to detect a Minbari ship on stealth mode with anything but the Mark I Eyeball.

[Nephtys]

A sharlin's main armament will easilly cut through another ship of it's kind. In that first season episode with the rogue ship Trigati, another Sharlin cuts clean through it's engineering section with a single shot. And we know that ship mounts several of such batteries.

The Minbari ships use an active jamming system that prevents Radar from locking on them directly, leaving weapons to be fired dumb in 'general directions'. They have internal compensation, so are agile enough to accellerate much faster than earth ships in B5.

There's little reason to doubt they'd be at least partially effective against DRADIS, which appears analogous to a quality radar or LIDAR system. Though, admittedly the colonial PD may be of use against most 'pulse' type weapons in common use with the younger races, which seem interceptable or disruptable.

[Winston Blake]

That sharlin tech readout is notoriously inaccurate. It's size is off by a good deal. A real Sharlin is close to 1km long.

Just now when i went to plug that in i noticed that two brackets were out of place. New high-end distance for incorrect size: 1.8 km. Putting in a 1km long Sharlin: 3.5 km. That seems much more in line with the scope of the screenshot. The calcs i linked to should be easy for everybody to modify further if necessary.

That's a NUKE hitting the battlestar? It's not a very big explosion. Compare it to the 2 MT devices used to kill the Black Star, which is much bigger than 500 meters (reference: every shot of a Sharlin in comparison to anything. That readout was never meant to be closely analyzed).

The explosion fills the screen in a few moments.

[Alan Bolte]

Brian Young (of babtech-onthe.net) places a generous upper limit of 102 kT on the amount of energy that could have hit the already-damaged Black Star. From reading the way he created that limit, I would say that he at least doubled it due to his use of an over-large disk to represent the silhouette of the cruiser. Thus, we have an example of at most 50 kT hitting the ship over its entire surface. A 50 kT bomb going off in contact with the hull would concentrate its effects at the point of impact, although obviously half or more of the energy would be wasted because the explosion is spherical.

I don't know where the statement about secondary explosions that Shep uses comes from. There's no way to know how much of the first nuke hit the Black Star, though it did take off a fin. The third nuke took out three cruisers simultaneously, but nothing is known of that incident. Contact hits from a Baseship's nuclear missiles would undoubtedly prove dangerous to a Sharlin, though they don't seem likely to cause the distruction of the entire ship in a single hit.

The Pegasus, on the other hand, took multiple such hits and, AFAIK, did not suffer irreparable damage. All this ignores the power and range of Minbari weapons and jamming. Between a Sharlin and a Basestar, I'd give it to the Sharlin, especially considering that the Minbari fighters are unlikely to have trouble with Raiders, despite the Basestar deploying around 100 times the number of fighters. You can't kill what you can't hit, and with Raiders (or Vipers) reduced to knife-fighting, beam weapons should make short work of them, especially if the cruiser sweeps the swarm with heavy weapons first. Galactica may be more than a match for a Basestar at point blank, but it suffers from lack of range, and is unlikely to get its few nukes close enough.

Now, let's talk about races without increadible jamming. One interesting question is if a Battlestar's formidable point-defense could take the place of interceptors, and if the flak cloud might mitigate damage from a laser. Given that intercepting enemy fire seems to be an ability only used by Earthforce, and that typical pulse guns aren't used for that purpose, I wonder if perhaps it's not a simple matter of one shot destroying another. Interceptors are even useful against beam weaponry. I don't really know what to think overall.

Narn, EA, and Minbari ships all carry heavy beam weapons capable of hitting a ship the size of the Galactica at beyond visual range, seen repeatedly when the Narns engage the Shadows. While I can't see much that the Galactica could do to avoid being hit at range, gravitic acceleration compensators mean that we don't have the upper limit on acceleration that we do with EA and Narn ships - EA capships are observed to have a maximum acceleration of significantly less than 1g, because people in rotating sections aren't standing on the walls in chases or ramming. Narn ships are at a similar tech level, AFAIK. I don't know how fast the Galactica is, but I'm willing to bet it could eventually close to gun range. Brian Young estimates an Omega's main beams to do a lower limit of 9 kT/sec, at a maximum range of well over 1000 km, and the weapons carried by the Narn cruisers are said to be similar. The question is thus: is that enough? Given that less than half of 50 kT hitting the ship is enough to cause worry, I would say yes, the Narns should have no trouble destroying the Galactica if they get the drop on them.

As to Centauri ships, their lack of range seems to be made up for in increased firepower. A single volley disables or destroys most any Narn, League, or EA ship, and a single hit has been observed to take off the wing of a Whitestar and disable it. I lack numbers, but it seems unquestionable that these rapid-firing guns could be a threat. The question then turns to the armor of the Centauri ships, and to fighters. Getting very specific about the ships' armor isn't simple, but it is clear that Centauri ships are considered superior overall to EA and Narn ships, and the smaller of the cruisers is at least a match for a Narn G'Quon. This is probably due in part to superior acceleration and maneuverability, whip could potentially negate the range advantage.

The dozen or so fighters carried by a Primus wouldn't last long against dozens of Vipers: they aren't significantly superior to a Frazi or Starfury overall, and there's no reason to assume they could easily survive bursts of 30mm cannon. The Vorchan carries no fighters. So, both ships would be vulnerable to fighter attack. Give the fighters nukes, and the Galactica has a fighting chance. Without the nukes... I don't really know how much damage they could do. Not enough against a Primus, in my opinion. The Vorchan mostly only has the one gun, so it would have trouble taking down fighters unless they conveniently grouped up in a swarm at range. I don't remember - what were the conclusions from previous threads about Starfury firepower compared to a Viper? A Vorchan has been destroyed by concentrated fire from Starfuries, so we need to know just how big the disparity is.

[MKSheppard]

That's a NUKE hitting the battlestar? It's not a very big explosion.

If you watched the BSG Miniseries; the entire screen goes white after the nuke hits the galactica; I didn't feel the need to add a few more screens of white.

[Netko]

A Vorchan has been destroyed by concentrated fire from Starfuries, so we need to know just how big the disparity is.

Incorrect. What happened was that the Starfuries knocked out the external weapons and PD on the Vorchan which allowed the B5 big guns (like that rectangular green blast thing and the quickfireing quad gun) to damage it severly which led it to blow up. The fighters didn't do it themselves, and have never been shown being able to blow up a proper warship (various raider and similar converted civilian ships not included) - they are there to strip it of its armament which allows the big guns of the capships to blast it.

[Skylon]

A Vorchan has been destroyed by concentrated fire from Starfuries, so we need to know just how big the disparity is.

Incorrect. What happened was that the Starfuries knocked out the external weapons and PD on the Vorchan which allowed the B5 big guns (like that rectangular green blast thing and the quickfireing quad gun) to damage it severly which led it to blow up. The fighters didn't do it themselves, and have never been shown being able to blow up a proper warship (various raider and similar converted civilian ships not included) - they are there to strip it of its armament which allows the big guns of the capships to blast it.

You're thinking of a Primus.

Starfuries destroyed a Vorchan late in season 5 when the Centauri tried to use an automated Vorchan to blow up the B5 jumpgate.

[Netko]

Ah right. My mistake

[Anguirus]

Thanks for the clarification on the BSG nuke, guys. Need to watch that series...

[MKSheppard]

and there's a limit on how much tougher a warship is going to be than a civilian craft.

Oh Really? A civilian spaceship is going to be significantly lighter in mass than a warship for one; you need more power and thrust to move a heavier mass than a lighter one; so their construction will be as cheap and light as possible as the designers can get away without violating safety standards.

Meanwhile, in "The Captain's Hand", Pegasus gets hit point blank by a conventional and nuclear missile barriage launched by three Basestars, and survives the barriage with little real damage; except for a knocked out FTL which needs to have it's coolant bypassed.

[Junghalli]

In all those scenarios you have the problem mentioned in the nBSG vs B5 attack fleet thread: namely, nBSG Battlestars have very slow projectile weapons with very limited firepower compared to B5 races, while Vipers are basicly useless against capships (same as B5 fighters BTW - in B5 the fighters are a danger to capships only in so much that they can damage exterior mounts like weapons, PD, etc., but they need capship support to actualy breech the armor and destroy the target, as seen in the Centauri cruiser vs B5 battle at the end of season 2).

Just as a tangent, it always bugged me that apparently nobody in B5 seems to have ever come up with the concept of a torpedo bomber. It's not like there seems to be any major technical difficulty. We have aircraft capable of carrying nukes today, and if Starfuries can get close enough to a ship to strafe it with their guns a bomber shouldn't have any problem getting close enough to drop a nuke on it.

[andrewgpaul]

That's what the Thunderbolt is; or at least, it's better at anti-shipping operations than the Starfury, and worse at dogfighting.

[Junghalli]

That's what the Thunderbolt is; or at least, it's better at anti-shipping operations than the Starfury, and worse at dogfighting.

It impressed me as more of a light bomber or fighter bomber. I'm talking about a dedicated anticapitalship bomber capable of carrying ship-killer bombs like the one used against the Black Star.

[Nephtys]

That's what the Thunderbolt is; or at least, it's better at anti-shipping operations than the Starfury, and worse at dogfighting.

It impressed me as more of a light bomber or fighter bomber. I'm talking about a dedicated anticapitalship bomber capable of carrying ship-killer bombs like the one used against the Black Star.

They'd get shot down. We've rarely seen figthers attack a target bigger than a light cruiser, and they do not directly engage capital type warships. Waves of starfuries had a tough time on maximum accelleration getting close enough to ram a sharlin due to PD, so a few won't have a chance.

The thunderbolt was never a big deal for striking enemy ships, it's big huzzah was atmospheric strike capability, and a firepower improvement over Auroras. There's in-universe a bomber type fury called the 'Badger Class' that's Minbari War Era. It's not used frequently for the reasons above.

[Junghalli]

They'd get shot down.

If normal fighters can survive long enough to do massed strafing attacks why can't a bomber survive long enough to launch a single missile at close range?

We've rarely seen figthers attack a target bigger than a light cruiser, and they do not directly engage capital type warships.

Probably has something to do with the fact that they generally lack the firepower to get through a capship's main armor belts. Which strikes me as rather silly. It's not like we don't have fairly manueverable aircraft that can carry nukes today, or like Starfuries are 3/4 engine and can't concievably have room for a large missile.

[Nephtys]

They'd get shot down.

If normal fighters can survive long enough to do massed strafing attacks why can't a bomber survive long enough to launch a single missile at close range?

We've rarely seen figthers attack a target bigger than a light cruiser, and they do not directly engage capital type warships.

Probably has something to do with the fact that they generally lack the firepower to get through a capship's main armor belts. Which strikes me as rather silly. It's not like we don't have fairly manueverable aircraft that can carry nukes today, or like Starfuries are 3/4 engine and can't concievably have room for a large missile.

Depends on what ship you attack. EA Omegas fight in tight formation and gun down even White Stars with their secondary batteries. Their fighters screen and skirmish, forcing the ship to split their secondary batteries from a main target to keep the fighters at bay.

Aurora Starfuries can carry missiles too, which seem the same size as Thunderbolt missiles. They're not used for strike specifically either, it seems. There must be a reason, right?

I say it's the fact that fighters can't last against a capital ship, even to deliver missiles in a reliable form. A sharlin can swat down squadrons of furies before they enter engagement range, as well as having jamming, for example.

Actually... a more reasonable explaination is that to put a viable space range engine in missile form, for delivering any meaningful payload, you'd need an engine the size of a Starfury pod at least. Which makes missiles rather expensive and cumbersome for what they may be worth. Especially since interceptor guns are in use by all races, and are capable of even shooting down high speed energy bolts.

[Junghalli]

I say it's the fact that fighters can't last against a capital ship, even to deliver missiles in a reliable form. A sharlin can swat down squadrons of furies before they enter engagement range, as well as having jamming, for example.
Actually... a more reasonable explaination is that to put a viable space range engine in missile form, for delivering any meaningful payload, you'd need an engine the size of a Starfury pod at least. Which makes missiles rather expensive and cumbersome for what they may be worth. Especially since interceptor guns are in use by all races, and are capable of even shooting down high speed energy bolts.

Why? We routinely see fighters hitting small capital ships and each other from very close range (VR, that is incredibly close in space), the missile can have all of 15 seconds of fuel and it'll still be viable. Of course you can have long-range missiles, which would negate the problem of the bomber actually having to get close to a capital ship, but that of course brings up problems with interception. Plus, historically, torpedo bombers were perfectly viable only being able to carry one torpedo per plane.
And if the intercepter grid can take out some bomber-launched missiles... so what? Only one has to get through. WWII torpedo bombers had a good probability of their torpedos missing, that didn't make it an unviable concept.
Also, B5 had fairly light unobtanium, so it's not like the warhead has to be truly huge. There are nukes that can fit in a suitcase made with today's technology that would probably be able to at least severely hurt a B5 capital ship, probably cripple it if it hit in the right spot, even with the most generous (reasonable) estimates for armor strength.