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Archon wrote:This is what I got for the whole ship:

58 Heavy gun emplacements
~808 Quad gun emplacements
~560 Long gun emplacements

I wonder how the Lucrehulk's heavy guns compare to the Venator's heavy guns.

Guesstimating based on the ring attachment having a similar power output per volume ratio as the core ship, the Lucrehulk-ring attachment combo's heavy guns would be similar in power to an ISD1's , which would be noticeably more powerful than the Venator's since the ISD has about a 2.8x reactor power advantage over Venator as speculated by SWTC. So the Lucrehulk if the ring has the same power density as the core ship would be roughly 4.5x as powerful as the ISD and, interestingly enough, 58 divides by 12 (ISD1's main turbolasers) 4.8 times.

So the LH has slightly less power per gun to play around with but at these yields the difference per gun between ISD and LH is somewhat negligible. If my math is right then it would take about 13 Venators or 5 ISDs to outgun a militarized Lucrehulk.

Though I'm understandly curious as to whether my conclusions only seem reasonable to me.

SCVN 2812 wrote:So the LH has slightly less power per gun to play around with but at these yields the difference per gun between ISD and LH is somewhat negligible. If my math is right then it would take about 13 Venators or 5 ISDs to outgun a militarized Lucrehulk.

Though I'm understandly curious as to whether my conclusions only seem reasonable to me.

No, they make sense. The ROTS ICS treats Lucrehulks like big battleships, with dozens of them in CIS fleets with thousands of star figates and destroyers. It states that a "flotilla" of Venators can blast through the shields of a Lucrehulk (albeit "easily"). Someone on TF.net said that according to WEG sources, a "flotilla" is about a dozen ships (a confirmation of this from someone would be great). So this upgrade of the Trade Fed Battleship is seems consistent, and is quite kick ass.

The Dark wrote:Assuming the bottom has the same armament, this would mean 800 quads, 568 longs, and 58 heavies.

Archon wrote:This is what I got for the whole ship:

58 Heavy gun emplacements
~808 Quad gun emplacements
~560 Long gun emplacements

Oh, good, we came up with similar numbers. I was worried I might have missed a couple of the emplacements (I think I did miss two of the quad guns in the ship quarter I checked, which would put it at 808), since I hadn't had a chance to save a copy and mark off each gun as I counted it.

SCVN 2812 wrote:So the Lucrehulk if the ring has the same power density as the core ship would be roughly 4.5x as powerful as the ISD and, interestingly enough, 58 divides by 12 (ISD1's main turbolasers) 4.8 times.

Although as I noted, it's less heavy firepower than the ISD-II, which mounted 8 turrets with octuple heavies, for 64 of the heavy turbolasers. Either the ISD-II's "heavies" are lighter than the ISD-I's, or it has a major generator upgrade, or it has a massively downgraded rate of fire (which would defeat some of the purpose of the increase in barrels).

The Dark wrote:

The Dark wrote:Assuming the bottom has the same armament, this would mean 800 quads, 568 longs, and 58 heavies.

Archon wrote:This is what I got for the whole ship:

58 Heavy gun emplacements
~808 Quad gun emplacements
~560 Long gun emplacements

Oh, good, we came up with similar numbers. I was worried I might have missed a couple of the emplacements (I think I did miss two of the quad guns in the ship quarter I checked, which would put it at 808), since I hadn't had a chance to save a copy and mark off each gun as I counted it.

SCVN 2812 wrote:So the Lucrehulk if the ring has the same power density as the core ship would be roughly 4.5x as powerful as the ISD and, interestingly enough, 58 divides by 12 (ISD1's main turbolasers) 4.8 times.

Although as I noted, it's less heavy firepower than the ISD-II, which mounted 8 turrets with octuple heavies, for 64 of the heavy turbolasers. Either the ISD-II's "heavies" are lighter than the ISD-I's, or it has a major generator upgrade, or it has a massively downgraded rate of fire (which would defeat some of the purpose of the increase in barrels).

I believe the consensus is that per gun the ISD1 has superiority, its firepower more concentrated into a few barrels but ISDII is far more flexible and ultimately useful in the post-Clone Wars era. The ISDII is optimized for pacification and engagements against numerous and maneuverable combatants, hence 8 octuple gun mounts which give a commander a better ability to fight more efficiently. Aside from efficiency tweaks made from lessons learned from the ISD1's 20 years of service, the actual amount of power available to the ISD2 is not going to be dramatically more than the ISD1.

The difference is that ISD1 can punch through heavy armor and shielding better than ISD2 can but ISD1's advantage is largely irrelevant for ISD2's mission role. ISD1 was designed at the tail end of the Clone Wars and entered service at a time when CIS remnants were still active which could very well include Bulwarks and Lucrehulks and other destroyer and larger class ships not to mention there was still the problem of taking down the fortress worlds one by one.

ISD2 came into service at a time when the Empire had a virtual monopoly on super star destroyers (SCAs, SBCs, SBBs, SDNs) and the Empire was fighting an insurgency whose mainstays were corvettes, frigates, cruisers and the odd star frigate and star destroyer equivalent. More barrels means more shots per volley meaning better chance of hits which compensate for the individually weaker shots.

Interestingly, the quad guns are the same as the big ones from TPM and on the IH - rated at a TT per shot (perhaps per barrel). There are also Heavy guns, which the art of RTOS shows are considerably bigger, ad presumbably more powerful.

It also shows placements corresponding to what I found in TPM

This thing could lay out a world of hurt.

About the armament of the Lucrehulk. I'm not a Hyperspace member anymore, but I saw a preview on the HS (I can't remember if it was the Photoreceptor or the Galactic gallery) the other day which showed a color-coded diagram of the armament used during production. I don't know what the individual dots represented (it was just the preview), but it was quite impressive.

That's what we're discussing right now. :P

They represent long guns, quad guns and heavy guns spread out over the entire ROTS LH.

VT-16 wrote:That's what we're discussing right now.

They represent long guns, quad guns and heavy guns spread out over the entire ROTS LH.

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you discussed the ICS.

And thanks for the clarification, VT-16! It's a massive amount of weapons...

That's a really cool picture. If anyone has seen the making of Ep 3 book, they'll see that those gun models were developed for use in the OSB, but were cut for time- it had a scale drawing of the Venator main guns, various Separatist cannons, and a clone fighter, as well as the muzzle flash and the look of the blast that each gun would fire.

I have a more general sort of question that applies to all capital ships in general. Is the upper limit for a cap ship's weapon energy output set by its reactor, or by the sum total of its guns' yield?

I mean, for example, can the hypermatter reactor(s) of an ISD-I provide enough power output to allow firing of all its heavy turbolasers at their hghest yield setting and maximum cyclic rate?

Likewise, can a Lucrehulk fire all its guns simultanouesly at max for every gun, or does it simply have a large number of guns spread across its hull simply for purposes of covering different fire arcs? The latter may be the case because its hull is not shaped to maximize fields of fire the way many dedicated warships are.
This is significant because if the latter was the case, then the Lucrehulk may not be as formidable as it seems.

VT-16 wrote:They must have "passed through the shields" or whatever, like Thrawn did in Outbound Flight.

Hmm, the two Acclamators (The RAS Prosecutor and the RAS [/i]Arrestor[/i]) were a considerable distance away from the Lucrehulk. Does Thrawn's strategy involve approaching into very close range? If so, it fails to explain the events at the end of the Assault Ship campaign.

I wonder what those "long guns" are for.

Long-range fire, maybe?

Cykeisme wrote:I have a more general sort of question that applies to all capital ships in general. Is the upper limit for a cap ship's weapon energy output set by its reactor, or by the sum total of its guns' yield?

I mean, for example, can the hypermatter reactor(s) of an ISD-I provide enough power output to allow firing of all its heavy turbolasers at their hghest yield setting and maximum cyclic rate?

Likewise, can a Lucrehulk fire all its guns simultanouesly at max for every gun, or does it simply have a large number of guns spread across its hull simply for purposes of covering different fire arcs? The latter may be the case because its hull is not shaped to maximize fields of fire the way many dedicated warships are.

That's interesting to consider. The hyperdrive reactor(s) of the Lucrehulk were pretty damn big, but size doesn't always correspond to power output. Nonetheless, it does take a flotilla (12 or so) to take one down (assuming it's been refitted).

Considering it takes a dozen VSDs to match a Lukrehulk Mk.II it would take 17 Lukrehulk Mk.IIs to take down a Mandator Mk.II (204/12 =17).

The core ship should have the reactor capacity to fire all its guns at max. The ring portion probably had its reactors upgraded along with its weapons perhaps by cutting out the troop carrying portions making it a cruiser/carrier optimized for space combat. While the war freighters/Lukerhulk Mk.Is and Droid Control Ships serve as planetary assault and command carriers.

Considering what we know from Darksaber and about the Munificent-class Star Frigate from ROTS:ICS i wouldn't be surprised, if a ship can deliver its entire reactor-output or several times its entire reactor-output (for things like 1,000 mile ice-moons) in a single shot.

Based on my ISD-estimates it would take six to nine of the LH Mark2 to fight a Mandator.

Count Dooku wrote:

Cykeisme wrote:I have a more general sort of question that applies to all capital ships in general. Is the upper limit for a cap ship's weapon energy output set by its reactor, or by the sum total of its guns' yield?

I mean, for example, can the hypermatter reactor(s) of an ISD-I provide enough power output to allow firing of all its heavy turbolasers at their hghest yield setting and maximum cyclic rate?

Likewise, can a Lucrehulk fire all its guns simultanouesly at max for every gun, or does it simply have a large number of guns spread across its hull simply for purposes of covering different fire arcs? The latter may be the case because its hull is not shaped to maximize fields of fire the way many dedicated warships are.

That's interesting to consider. The hyperdrive reactor(s) of the Lucrehulk were pretty damn big, but size doesn't always correspond to power output. Nonetheless, it does take a flotilla (12 or so) to take one down (assuming it's been refitted).

Without any time to charge capacitors then reactor output is the ultimate determining factor of a ship's overall firepower, as it also would in a prolonged engagement.

To elaborate a bit, each calibre of gun is likely going to have a maximum yield for when its mostly one specific type of gun that is needed (i.e. you are fighting a star destroyer so why even bother with anything but the heavies if there are no fighters in the air so all power alloted for weapons would be dumped into the heavy guns) and there would also be a more common yield for large free for alls where each gun calibre is needed for dealing with multiple targets of varying size and agility.

So we've established the fact that the TFBB was a pretty powerful ship - does anyone have any idea of how many the Trade Federation/CIS had, both pre and post refit (assumuing they only refitted a certain amount).

Well they had enough for a blockade of Naboo. Looks by the piece of the blockade they run that they had maybe 10,000 ships blockading Naboo.

Might be more but it would not be a streach if that was all that the TF had at the time. They could have more which is highly likely. but it is a good gauge to measure their fleet size.

Isolder74 wrote:Well they had enough for a blockade of Naboo. Looks by the piece of the blockade they run that they had maybe 10,000 ships blockading Naboo.

Might be more but it would not be a streach if that was all that the TF had at the time. They could have more which is highly likely. but it is a good gauge to measure their fleet size.

10,000 is a believable amount - blockading a planet isn't something 10 or even 100 ships could handle. But, I think it would be foolish to think that the TF would have dedicated 90+% of their fleet to blockade 1 planet. Realistically, they probably had less than 10% of their fleet blockading Naboo, and that figure might be a bit high.

The Nemodians had a home world (like any species), but they probably controlled several thousand un-inhabitated systems, and several inabited ones - the un-inhabited worlds were probably used soley for mining and the production of various goods. They were an exremely wealthy and powerful species. They would need ships to protect their planets, their trade roots, and they'd need ships to do the physcial act of shippings goods.

indeed

The ships blockading Naboo may have been a large portion of their non transport and trading fleet as they had to be still doing business in order to survive as an entity. It is possiblr they sent their 'flying squadron' to Naboo for the bockade. This being a majority of their combat centered units might explain why once the planet was 'secure' they sent the whole fleet but the Droid Control Ship away.

Later refits could have turned more of their transport fleety into combat units as they saw the War approaching.

Plus, I'm sure there was new construction during the war considering the importance of Cato Nemoidia and Nemoidia, and the ring station around Cato Nemoidia in the concept sketches for ROTS. Most new construction would probably be the LH Mk.II, as well as the smaller warships mentioned in the AOTC:ICS.

Isolder74 wrote:indeed

The ships blockading Naboo may have been a large portion of their non transport and trading fleet as they had to be still doing business in order to survive as an entity. It is possiblr they sent their 'flying squadron' to Naboo for the bockade. This being a majority of their combat centered units might explain why once the planet was 'secure' they sent the whole fleet but the Droid Control Ship away.

Later refits could have turned more of their transport fleety into combat units as they saw the War approaching.

I forgot about the control ship situation - the Naboo pilots NEVER would have had a chance if the other ships were there. They would have unleashed thousands, perhaps even millions of fighters.

NRS Guardian wrote:Plus, I'm sure there was new construction during the war considering the importance of Cato Nemoidia and Nemoidia, and the ring station around Cato Nemoidia in the concept sketches for ROTS. Most new construction would probably be the LH Mk.II, as well as the smaller warships mentioned in the AOTC:ICS.

Indeed. I'm sure they would want to pound out as many Lucrehulk's as they possibly could - especially considering how powerful they were.

Count Dooku wrote:I forgot about the control ship situation - the Naboo pilots NEVER would have had a chance if the other ships were there. They would have unleashed thousands, perhaps even millions of fighters.

1500 per ship for a total of 15 million for a fleet of 10,000. It seems understandable that the TF sent their fleet away after conquering Naboo. Military unwise, of course, but the TF, especially by TPM, was only a just created military organization with many known flaws. Still, it doesn't look that bad considering that there were no known threat that could take out that one control ship. It was that one in a million shot again that "forcies" seem so prone to perform. Of course, any normal military should have kept some backup at least.

True but this was a corperation not a normal military we are talking about. It is probable that this was their entire combat refitted ships and as soon as they felt they no longer needed the blockade they sent them away to run trade or back to their normal duties where they would turn a profit rather than just sit there staring at a already in control planet.

In a trade entity every ship out of service must be a loss in their profit margin. We see how many battle droids the things can carry imagine how many trade goods the ships can carry in just one run. 10,000 ships out of service....that's a lot of lost profits.

Isolder74 wrote:True but this was a corperation not a normal military we are talking about. It is probable that this was their entire combat refitted ships and as soon as they felt they no longer needed the blockade they sent them away to run trade or back to their normal duties where they would turn a profit rather than just sit there staring at a already in control planet.

In a trade entity every ship out of service must be a loss in their profit margin. We see how many battle droids the things can carry imagine how many trade goods the ships can carry in just one run. 10,000 ships out of service....that's a lot of lost profits.

That was my point. I doubt the Trade Federation would commit they entire fleey - otherwise known as mode of operation - to blockading one planet.