Who could beat pre-crisis uber superman?

Bertie Wooster · Post by **Bertie Wooster** » 2005-09-13 09:04am

Even unaugmented, Thanos with Power Starlin has a chance beat Silver Age Superman.

He's the only non-cosmic entity I can think of.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-09-13 09:07am

Bertie Wooster wrote:Even unaugmented, Thanos with Power Starlin has a chance beat Silver Age Superman.

He's the only non-cosmic entity I can think of.

LMAO....ah, yes. The one writer combo that is more wank then any Superman combination.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-09-13 09:34am

Another problem with telepathy/mind control is the fact that Supes acts much faster than thought (Red Son in which Supes isn't near full silver age power breaks out of an infinite number of boxes genrated by a whole flight corps of green lanters, they cant get a lock on him again since he's moving at 5 times the speed of thought).

The Final Version of Onslaught that could create suns might have a tiny chance if he preps himself with shielding etc... before trying a telepathic whammy jammy.
Was pre-crisis Supes reallt that reistant to mind control or magic?
Also Could the Anti-monitor do it? (Never read crisis)

If he is vulnerable to magic the Day of Judgement Captain marvel might do it considering he was imbued with the power of tens of thousands of magical souls and beat up the Spectre (At full power, no holds barred).
THe Triad of Marvel (Death, Galactus, Eternity=the universe) are iffy since
Superman once defeated entropy

.

Krona might do it since he has the power of multiple universes and held two universes together with the Tribunal and Spectre trying to stop him.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-09-13 09:40am

Wasn't one problem with pre-crisis Supeman that he was for all intents and purposes impossible to defeat if you didn't take away his powers?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-09-13 09:45am

DEATH wrote:Another problem with telepathy/mind control is the fact that Supes acts much faster than thought (Red Son in which Supes isn't near full silver age power breaks out of an infinite number of boxes genrated by a whole flight corps of green lanters, they cant get a lock on him again since he's moving at 5 times the speed of thought).

The Final Version of Onslaught that could create suns might have a tiny chance if he preps himself with shielding etc... before trying a telepathic whammy jammy.
Was pre-crisis Supes reallt that reistant to mind control or magic?
Also Could the Anti-monitor do it? (Never read crisis)

If he is vulnerable to magic the Day of Judgement Captain marvel might do it considering he was imbued with the power of tens of thousands of magical souls and beat up the Spectre (At full power, no holds barred).
THe Triad of Marvel (Death, Galactus, Eternity=the universe) are iffy since
Superman once defeated entropy .

Krona might do it since he has the power of multiple universes and held two universes together with the Tribunal and Spectre trying to stop him.

All of which only apply to CURRENT Superman.

You do understand when I said Writer's intent I was not meaning it as a some farce? Literally if he needed Super-(insert whatever) he had it?

If he needed to destroy the Time Trapper's time shield that prevent anyway from entering the 30192784th century, he would just get it for that issue and never use it again?

Literally you are applying logic on a being who's catalog of powers would likely crash this server.

In fact other then the loveliness of Green K(which he evenutally grabbed every piece in existence...note that word) he is only stopped by a being like Thanos: written by Starlin(and before we scream SoD...let's not go there, because if we did that, he's a being with no weakness who can do feats that would make every single being in existence have small penis syndrome when he regales the time he saved universe from the mento beam and had Jimmy Olsen marry Golgotha, the shit demon.)

Honestly you are trying to find weakness in a being who by 1970-72 had removed all and needed to be depowered.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » 2005-09-13 09:58am

I'm fairly certain there are versions of Goku that would trounce even Pre-Crisis Superman.

Maybe it's the fact I'm not too familiar with PC-Superman, but I don't see how he could take out someone like Eternity, the embodiment of the universe, let alone anyone carrying the Infinity Gauntlet. Really, once you get to beings like Galactus, Kubik (Cosmic Cube being), Odin, etc you're talking about people who can play with reality itself and wipe people from existence. I guess its possible Superman is immune to those things, I don't know.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-09-13 10:04am

Jason wrote:I'm fairly certain there are versions of Goku that would trounce even Pre-Crisis Superman.

Maybe it's the fact I'm not too familiar with PC-Superman, but I don't see how he could take out someone like Eternity, the embodiment of the universe, let alone anyone carrying the Infinity Gauntlet. Really, once you get to beings like Galactus, Kubik (Cosmic Cube being), Odin, etc you're talking about people who can play with reality itself and wipe people from existence. I guess its possible Superman is immune to those things, I don't know.

I still see so far a few a get, and Bernie got it.

But let's put it in simpler terms. He can do whatever he wants, when it's needed. When I said Writer's intent, If he needed a power to reignite the sun...with his heat vision, he got it for that issue...if next issue it was too powerful, he lost it.

The only reason they created the Sword of Superman was to tell the reader he was the most special person because he could refuse becoming the next creator of the universe...because that would be wrong.

And no DBZ...Goku for all his bluster is small fry in anything but terrestial foes.

KrauserKrauser · Post by **KrauserKrauser** » 2005-09-13 10:05am

I can think of a few combos in Marvel that could kill him.

Thanos + Infinity Gauntlet

Thanos + Cosmic Cube

Doom + Cosmic Cube

Molecule Man (Post Secret Wars)

Doom + Beyonder powers

So basically anyone + insanely busted plot device can beat the Supes.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-09-13 10:31am

There was an issue of Pre Crisis Superman where he was toyed with by the Spectre. Spectre mind fucked him, manipulated reality and essentially made Pre-Crisis Superman his bitch. It was punishment for Superman trying to alter destiny and save Kara (Supergirl) from death after a battle with Mongul's Warworld (Also portrayed as being able to kill Superman) so in 2-3 issues we had pre-crisis Superman get pretty much pwned by Warworld and Spectre.

Just a tidbit from an avid Superman fan both before and after Byrne.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2005-09-13 10:57am

Lina Inverse perhaps? Once she starts casting the Giga Slave any interruption by him could have BAD consequences. Depends if she gets the chance or not.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-09-13 11:01am

What about Captain Marvel? IIRC Pre-Crisis Supes was vulnerable to magic, although I may be off with that...

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-09-13 11:23am

Elheru Aran wrote:What about Captain Marvel? IIRC Pre-Crisis Supes was vulnerable to magic, although I may be off with that...

If he is vulnerable to magic the Day of Judgement Captain marvel might do it considering he was imbued with the power of tens of thousands of magical souls and beat up the Spectre (At full power, no holds barred).

Would SSJ4 Gogeta really not have a chance? He was crazy powerful with a spirit ball fuelled by the universe without being in ssk4 or fusion.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » 2005-09-13 11:26am

Ghost Rider wrote:
I still see so far a few a get, and Bernie got it.

But let's put it in simpler terms. He can do whatever he wants, when it's needed. When I said Writer's intent, If he needed a power to reignite the sun...with his heat vision, he got it for that issue...if next issue it was too powerful, he lost it.

No, I understand this perfectly, it just isn't very useful when someone asks who can beat PC-Superman to simply say "He can do whatever he wants when it's needed" because that is an obvious no limits fallacy.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-09-13 11:29am

Funnily enough, reading the above I'm reminded of Bugs Bunny...

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-09-13 11:31am

Elheru Aran wrote:What about Captain Marvel? IIRC Pre-Crisis Supes was vulnerable to magic, although I may be off with that...

There were numerous instances in PreCrisis where Marvel was considered in Superman's weightclass in terms of strength but always a notch weaker. There was one issue where Marvel and Superman switched bodies and Superman immediately noticed that he felt weaker and less invulnerable while Marvel felt stronger. Superman possessed Marvel got into a few scraps where Marvel possessed Superman had to warn him about being careful because his body wasn't as invulnerable as Superman was used to. Marvel's magic never came into the equation.

Unfortunately I hear there are some dumb ass instances in current contunuity where Marvel could defeat Superman based on his magical nature which makes no fucking sense as Marvel's strength is magic fueled but that's not enough to trigger Superman's weakness for fuck's sake. But I digress.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2005-09-13 11:46am

In Marvel and Supes latest fight (Batman/Superman), Supes beat him. We didn't see the fight though...

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-09-13 11:47am

Unfortunately I hear there are some dumb ass instances in current contunuity where Marvel could defeat Superman based on his magical nature which makes no fucking sense as Marvel's strength is magic fueled but that's not enough to trigger Superman's weakness for fuck's sake. But I digress.

Marvel does this usually by grappling Supes then rapid firing SHAZAM bolts, those are magic and have nearly taken down Kingdom Come Super-Supe's, in a recent fight when Superman was possesed by Eclipso Marvel wasn't able to match his speed hth (he threatened to fill the grand canyon with corpses) but he caught him and blasted the shit out of him with about 5 SHAZAM's.
(On the 6th he was trying to talk to Supe's when he was strangled by the throat as Billie Batson).

Also Bugs Bunny probably could beat Superman, especially if he had the eraser, if only due to the fact that S couldn't hurt him.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2005-09-13 11:53am

DEATH wrote:
Unfortunately I hear there are some dumb ass instances in current contunuity where Marvel could defeat Superman based on his magical nature which makes no fucking sense as Marvel's strength is magic fueled but that's not enough to trigger Superman's weakness for fuck's sake. But I digress.
Marvel does this usually by grappling Supes then rapid firing SHAZAM bolts, those are magic and have nearly taken down Kingdom Come Super-Supe's, in a recent fight when Superman was possesed by Eclipso Marvel wasn't able to match his speed hth (he threatened to fill the grand canyon with corpses) but he caught him and blasted the shit out of him with about 5 SHAZAM's.
(On the 6th he was trying to talk to Supe's when he was strangled by the throat as Billie Batson).

Also Bugs Bunny probably could beat Superman, especially if he had the eraser, if only due to the fact that S couldn't hurt him.

Death, in KC Superman took a bunch oh his Shazam bolts, got pissed off and took control of the situation. Supes tried to reason with him first.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2005-09-13 11:53am

Didn't they fight one time when somebody put a whammy on both of them so Superman thought Marvel was Hank Henshaw. and Marvel thought Superman was Black Adam? IIRC it was a tie.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-09-13 11:56am

Superman wrote: Death, in KC Superman took a bunch oh his Shazam bolts, got pissed off and took control of the situation. Supes tried to reason with him first.

No, he was on his knees on the ground, Marvel was about to finish him off when he (S) grabbed him by the throat until the mind control worms popped, although S quickly recovered he was not dominating and in a straight fight Marvel was a good enough match to keep him from interfering with the Gulag break-out.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-09-13 12:00pm

Kingdom Come is non-canon; it's an Elseworlds event. As others have noted, Superman wasn't actually trying to take Marvel down; he could've knocked him into next week, but he held back, and as a result Marvel was basically kicking him in the nuts while he was down...

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2005-09-13 12:01pm

DEATH wrote:
Superman wrote: Death, in KC Superman took a bunch oh his Shazam bolts, got pissed off and took control of the situation. Supes tried to reason with him first.
No, he was on his knees on the ground, Marvel was about to finish him off when he (S) grabbed him by the throat until the mind control worms popped, although S quickly recovered he was not dominating and in a straight fight Marvel was a good enough match to keep him from interfering with the Gulag break-out.

I'm looking at it right now. Batson SHAZAMS him, Superman says "ENOUGH" and jumps up and grabs him by mouth. He even moves through his SHAZAM boom. The caption reads "fingers that can fuse coal into diamond crawl across human bone." Batson wimpers.

Supes took control pretty quickly here.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2005-09-13 12:11pm

ryan8723 wrote:An example of pre-crisis Superman ridiculous powerlevel was when he sneezed and blew out a star in another solar system. Another example is that he could travel across the known universe in a matter of minutes or so and then he could travel so fast he could travel through time.

The funny thing is, as powerful as pre-crisis Superman is he is absolutely nothing compared to Superman Prime (basically the original Superman lived far into the future and became Superman Prime) who is more or less 2nd ONLY to God in the 853rd century. An example of his power is that he literally tore down the gates of Heaven. His powers far exceed those of normal post-crisis Superman (he can manipulate matter in any way he pleases, he can resurrect the dead, he literally is the source of every superheroes' power and he is more powerful than 5th dimensional beings).

So apparently post-crisis Superman ends up being more powerful than pre-crisis Superman, which is hilariously ironic since one of the main reason for the crisis was to power down Superman.

Can you or anybody substantiate this?? This doesn't sound right to me for some reason.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-09-13 12:18pm

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:Can you or anybody substantiate this?? This doesn't sound right to me for some reason.

Yeah, I only remmeber superman prime living in the sun, giving the S dynasty increased powers (time punches etc...) and that with a GL ring He crushed Solaris into fragments (after Solaris had slaughtered hundreds or thousands of heros).

Also Superman, In KC It's only 4-5 bolts, Superman is bleeding through his nose, ears and his eyes are bloodshot, and he's on his arms after falling down from his knees, he recovered quickly but that is a known power of his (Kryptonite sword through the chest anyone?) and he really seemed to be hurt badly.
Considering that this version of Superman was stronger, tougher, mega-ton nuclear proof and was immune to kryptonite I'd say that Marvel's summoned bolts pack a blast.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2005-09-13 12:21pm

DEATH wrote:
THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:Can you or anybody substantiate this?? This doesn't sound right to me for some reason.
Yeah, I only remmeber superman prime living in the sun, giving the S dynasty increased powers (time punches etc...) and that with a GL ring He crushed Solaris into fragments (after Solaris had slaughtered hundreds or thousands of heros).

Also Superman, In KC It's only 4-5 bolts, Superman is bleeding through his nose, ears and his eyes are bloodshot, and he's on his arms after falling down from his knees, he recovered quickly but that is a known power of his (Kryptonite sword through the chest anyone?) and he really seemed to be hurt badly.
Considering that this version of Superman was stronger, tougher, mega-ton nuclear proof and was immune to kryptonite I'd say that Marvel's summoned bolts pack a blast.

They definately pack a blast. No question there. I'm just saying Supes was holding back until he got pissed off.

Anyway, yeah, Cap usually tries to pin Supes down and blast him. He even did it on the Justice League cartoon.