How would you fix Detroit?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2005-08-16 07:26pm

If crime is really so out of hand, can't the governor declare a state of emergency and use the National Guard to restore order? It's not exactly martial law, so it might work better.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-08-16 07:42pm

HemlockGrey wrote:If crime is really so out of hand, can't the governor declare a state of emergency and use the National Guard to restore order? It's not exactly martial law, so it might work better.

That actually would be more ideal-- people would be more inclined to accept it, working off the principle that it's in his state, so he's justified in cleaning up his back yard, so to speak.

TimothyC · Post by **TimothyC** » 2005-08-16 07:44pm

Well I only live in Michigan half of the year, but from what I understand Governor Jennifer Granholm (a SHE not a HE for all of you that have been saying "He") is a big pussy on such things. but the again I go to a fairly conservative school in the middle of Flint so take that with a grain of salt.

Plus because the change has been gradual it simply a fact of life to a certain degree, and thus doesn't get a lot of attention.

Zed Snardbody · Post by **Zed Snardbody** » 2005-08-16 07:47pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Zed, what is Devil's Night?

Devils night is the night before haloween, in detroit its basicly an arson free for all. Ussually there are in the neighborhood of 100 houses and buildings are torched.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2005-08-16 07:53pm

Perinquus wrote:In the interests of accuracy, I feel constrained to pointt out that while you quoted this with "Perinquus wrote:", I never said that. It was Red Imperator.

If I have mis-quoted then I offer my humble apologies and resolve to do better in the future.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2005-08-16 08:01pm

Darth Wong wrote:OK, if people feel that a restoration of welfare funding, community centres, school funding from the state level etc. is impossible, then perhaps the only solution is to declare martial law within the city limits in order to restore law and order. That sounds better than letting lawlessness rule and essentially abdicating the region to armed thugs, which seems to be what I'm hearing.

That's already been tried.

During the riots of the late 1960's/early 1970's martial law WAS declared in Detroit, they had honest-to-God tanks rolling down I-75, and the only thing that happened was that when the restrictions were lifted everyone who could move out DID move out.

Hence the plunging population.

Now, to be perfectly honest, the East Side of Detroit is not bad at all - which is why it's been trying to secede form the rest of the city. So far with no luck. Greek Town and Eastern Market used to be nice, relatively safe spots to be (my friends and I used to go out for the evening in Greek Town and not leave until midnight or 1 am with no problems) but the fucktards running the place tore 'em down and built a damned casino in their place.

There's no way to force people to stay where they don't want to be if they have the means to move.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2005-08-16 08:05pm

Tasoth wrote:
Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Zed, what is Devil's Night?
Devil's Night,a round here, is the night before halloween when kids go out and pull pranks (TPing a house, eggings, what have you). In Detroit, I'm willing to bet it involves a huge amount of crimes done in one night.

Yes.

The traditional crime being arson.

We're talking hundreds of fires set in a single night. Traditionally, the Detroit fire department asks the FD's in suburbs from Flint to Ohio to help out.

Back when I lived there I remember one year with 300+ plus fires set on a Devil's Night in just the city of Detroit alone - this bullshit extends to the suburbs as well, but on a smaller scale.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2005-08-16 08:13pm

Perinquus wrote:It would be the first time that a city of that size was "abandoned" in the United States.

So?

We aren't talking about some little podunk outpost that dried up when the nearby silver mine plays out, and as a result becomes a ghost town. We are talking about a major metropolis, with millions of people living in it.

Nope. Less than one million and dropping further every year.

How do you just abandon that?

Cities are seldom abandoned overnight... it takes time. But it IS what is happening.

And what about all those people still living there. Not all of the them are depraved criminals and gang bangers who deserve anything they get. Some are just people who are too poor to afford to move out. And your solution is apparently "fuck 'em".

It's not like I'm advocating lining them up against the wall and shooting them or something - get real!

Frankly, I like the idea of buying them out and relocating them. We do it for freeways, why the hell not for this sort of urban renewal?

I am asking what could possibly be done to salvage Detroit.

And I'm telling you as a former Detroiter that I believe it is beyond rescue at this point. Maybe as late as 1980 there was hope, but not now.

So writing it off, and thereby also writing off all the people who live there is simply not an option.

Who said anything about "writing off" the current residents? Relocate 'em. Give them an incentive and the means to relocate.

And if someone really DOES want to live in a rotting ruin of a city... well, as long as it actually is their choice hey, it's a free country, right?

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2005-08-16 10:00pm

OK, if people feel that a restoration of welfare funding, community centres, school funding from the state level etc. is impossible, then perhaps the only solution is to declare martial law within the city limits in order to restore law and order.

Been done before, didn't work then. Honestly Mike would you keep your family in a city that lived under martial law if you could move 30 minutes down the road?

That sounds better than letting lawlessness rule and essentially abdicating the region to armed thugs, which seems to be what I'm hearing

Don't leave the city to the thugs. If you are going to abandon Detroit you need to buy out the decent residents who got shafted by Detroit public schools, can't get a good enough job to get the hell out, and then bulldoze the vacant neighborhood into the ground.

If thugs want to rule vast vacant lots, I welcome them to it. The idea is to reduce the amount of land the cops need to cover while keeping what tax value there is within the new effective borders.

That's why I don't see this happening unless there's some major justification for it, like city-wide rioting or some such like what happened in Los Angles in the 'seventies (eighties? Not sure, I wasn't around then).

Happened before. In the 80's they once lit off 800 seperate fires on Devil's Night (oh I'm sorry Angel's Night

). It has since fallen off so only one or two hundred fires get lit on an average year around Devil's Night. That comes with a massive price tag in police overtime and the burbs lending equipment and manpower.

If crime is really so out of hand, can't the governor declare a state of emergency and use the National Guard to restore order?

Only if she doesn't want to be re-elected, get slapped with a massive lawsuit, and possibly hand over Stabenow's senate seat in the next election. Michigan goes red state if Detroit doesn't show up at the polls; and they will not forgive Ganholm if she calls out the Guard. She needs the city's political machine (she was once part of McNamara's machine but got out before the federal investigation) if she wants to win statewide elections.

Devil's Night,a round here, is the night before halloween when kids go out and pull pranks(TPing a house, eggings, what have you). In Detroit, I'm willing to bet it involves a huge amount of crimes done in one night.

Devil's Night in Detroit typicly last three nights in Detroit and a few hundred homes get torched. There is also surge in some other crimes, like say drug crimes, but some other crimes fall as they call out all the cops, have volunteers patrol the city, and get the surrounding communities to help out. Due to the increased policing around Devil's night there has been shift in crime to before and after the massive manpower turnouts.

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2005-08-17 01:32am

Isn't the same thing happening to buffalo? Ever since the the industries packed up and left its been in a downward spiral.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2005-08-17 11:10am

In all seriousness, the fortunes of Detroit are directly tied to the fortunes of the domestic automobile industry. Unless American car companies become more successful, the place is just screwed, period.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2005-08-17 12:29pm

Andrew J. wrote:In all seriousness, the fortunes of Detroit are directly tied to the fortunes of the domestic automobile industry. Unless American car companies become more successful, the place is just screwed, period.

THERE...ARE...NO...MORE...CAR...COMPANIES...IN...DETROIT...!...THEY...ALL...LEFT!!!

Zed Snardbody · Post by **Zed Snardbody** » 2005-08-17 01:16pm

GM maintians their HQ there but thats it. Its all moved to Lansing, Flint, and is still in Pontiac.

Post by **Kuja** » 2005-08-17 02:08pm

ArmorPierce wrote:Isn't the same thing happening to buffalo? Ever since the the industries packed up and left its been in a downward spiral.

Yes, though the situation here is not quite as advanced as what's being described in this thread. Some of the folks running the show around here are still making an effort to turn the city around and although Buffalo's floundering a lot, it hasn't gone under the way Detroit apparantly has.

Zed Snardbody · Post by **Zed Snardbody** » 2005-08-17 02:48pm

Give it an earth quake and a super villian and you've got gotham city.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2005-08-17 04:26pm

Zed Snardbody wrote:Give it an earth quake and a super villian and you've got gotham city.

The worst thing is, I had this same discussion with Tsyroc last night. Or earlier this morning. Not sure exactly.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-08-17 06:38pm

So not even Martial Law will save it, and there's no industries there anymore.

Flatten it. Declare Eminent Domain, buy the property off folks so they can move out, and proceed to bulldoze the city block by block. Offer land cheap to folks to build new industry. In short, set fire to it, stamp it flat, and start over.

Because apparently nothing else will do it.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-08-17 07:37pm

Well i live in basically the heart of Detroit so let me say a few things, first correcting some misconceptions...

Detroit is incredibly violent, with murders almost every week. However still it's mainly safe as long as you keep away from the burt out city-core, like the Buffalo Projects or downtown, around that it's pretty good. However you go far enough down town...it goes Mad Max on you. Seriously i'm talking about people sitting outside of their homes, cooking, laughing talking, with a FIRE BURNING IN THEIR BACKYARD...what were they burning? I have no idea, but they seemed content to let it burn.

It is NOT just blacks. There are MANY poor white trash types too. And they're just as violent as anyone else. And racism is not as 'covert' in some cases as it is in other cities.

There IS no money. None. The city is in the hole for hundreds of millions of dollars and Killpatrick is one of the only people on Earth i can honestly say is more incompetent than George W. Bush...yes you read that correctly. I didn't make a typo i assure you.

Finally the schools...good Lord. I swear to God it's basically like that movie Class of 1999, the gangs run the schools and they dont need no pussy ass guns they beat each other to near-death with their bare hands. I've seen people literally claw the skin off each other, i swear, it was absolutely terrifying.

Now i dont know how to possibly fix Detroit. You cannot simply take teh city from under the inhabitants, or napalm it, but you cant let it just lay fallow either. I guess, i'd sugegst, taking the 'burbs and some of the money there in to revitalize the city as one person suggested but that's all i can think of.

Zed Snardbody · Post by **Zed Snardbody** » 2005-08-17 07:51pm

Where are the police, are they simply that corrupt? Affraid? Not enough of them? I understand that crime is a way of life in most cities in the US, but even in the worse parts of Vegas, I know that metro will show up eventually.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-08-17 08:00pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Now i dont know how to possibly fix Detroit. You cannot simply take teh city from under the inhabitants, or napalm it, but you cant let it just lay fallow either. I guess, i'd sugegst, taking the 'burbs and some of the money there in to revitalize the city as one person suggested but that's all i can think of.

I don't know how you can revitalize it without simply smashing some section of it, to be honest.

However, if the worst is in a convenient, easily targettable section, it simplifies matters. Domain that section, sell it cheap to people who will build actual factories and employ locals. Not an ideal solution by far, but it would get some income going.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-08-17 08:00pm

Zed Snardbody wrote:Where are the police, are they simply that corrupt? Affraid? Not enough of them? I understand that crime is a way of life in most cities in the US, but even in the worse parts of Vegas, I know that metro will show up eventually.

Crooked most of them.

Detroid police pay out more to people who win lawsuits against them every year, if what i read in a newspapaer is right, than any other police force in the country. And i assur eyou, it's perfectly justified. There have been RAPISTS accidentally hired by the cops here, who attack and beat suspects. I wish i had a dime for every time i heard or read of suspects dying in Detroit PD custody.

Oh and last year there was a shooting at the fireworks, right? So they couldnt find the REAL criminal so they chose a RANDOM PERSON and tried to pin it on him for no fucking reason. The VICTIMS themselves stood up and said that eh was innocent and even came on TV to say that he wasnt even at the place!

My dad, you know, was a policeman. Heh. He used to tell my mom about how they would extort money from people, steal drugs and use them, and beat suspects for no reason. He was also a drunk who beat the living hell out of me, my mom and my grandma for quite a while before my mom finally kicked him out and armed herself like a small army to keep him out. He was, as i understand it, one of the more dutiful cops, worked hard, actually tried to solve cases at times. Now imagine the really crooked ones, the ones he looked down on.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-08-17 08:04pm

What i'm saying is, you dont CALL the police in Detroit unless.

1--you are willing to wait AT LEAST an hour for them to get there

2--you are not affraid

3--you've got balls of reinforced steel

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2005-08-17 08:18pm

Where are the police, are they simply that corrupt?

Sometimes. Recently a cop was convicted for stealing 100 kilos or something of cocaine from the evidence room.

Affraid?

Hell yes. I've seen gangs with friggen fully automatic rifles in Detroit. In some cases the gangs are better armed than the cops. You'd have to be a lunatic not to be afraid to go into some buildings in certain neighborhoods even with Kevlar, guns, and backup. When I say put snipers on the rooftops it is because some of these gangs aren't scared of the cops.

Not enough of them?

This is the biggie. Detroit is a sprawling city and you need lots of cops to patrol it, more so because so many houses are abandoned. Of course the money is never there, and they were talking about layoffs.

I understand that crime is a way of life in most cities in the US, but even in the worse parts of Vegas, I know that metro will show up eventually.

It depends on the night and the location. A charity I volunteered with was once robbed, the cops never managed to show up, of course there was a gang fight that night that killed a few people and sprayed bullets over a few city streets.

Detroit is incredibly violent, with murders almost every week. However still it's mainly safe as long as you keep away from the burt out city-core, like the Buffalo Projects or downtown, around that it's pretty good. However you go far enough down town...it goes Mad Max on you. Seriously i'm talking about people sitting outside of their homes, cooking, laughing talking, with a FIRE BURNING IN THEIR BACKYARD...what were they burning? I have no idea, but they seemed content to let it burn.

Yes the worst of the horror stories are confined to a few neighborhoods. The problem is the size of the neighborhoods has been growing while the tax base of adjacent areas has been falling.

Now i dont know how to possibly fix Detroit. You cannot simply take teh city from under the inhabitants, or napalm it, but you cant let it just lay fallow either. I guess, i'd sugegst, taking the 'burbs and some of the money there in to revitalize the city as one person suggested but that's all i can think of.

Legally annexing the burbs is out of the question. Around here some pissant charter township has won that the adjacent city cannot annex commercial land adjacent. Home rule is going to prevent annexation, nevermind that the burbs are politicly powerful and there will be support across party lines to stay the hell out of Detroit.

Besides do you really think annexing say Hamtramck is going to actually help the city's finicial condition? It will take an arseload of territory to fix the problems. Even then people will just move to the other side of the boundary line.

spongyblue · Post by **spongyblue** » 2005-08-17 09:32pm

I was born and raised in Detroit. I moved away four years ago when I enlisted in the Air Force and went back this past July for the first time in 3 1/2 years. The thing that sucks is that there is a lot of potential for that city, but of course you got idioits running the place. Why? Because they keep getting re-elected. Why? Because people aren't smart enough. I'm not just talking book smarts, but a huge number of people there just seem to be completly ignorant of the how the world works and their place in it.

The city council has to go. Period. Every last one of them is in it for themselves. Kwame(the mayor) has to go. He dropped the ball really early on when he could have actually gotten something good acomplished. Get somebody comptent as Cheif of Police. I don't know how the new woman in charge is doing, but the last guy the had who was flown in from North Carolina, was one of the most incompetants I have ever heard of. Here's a guy who went to the airport and tried to board the plane with his gun still on him. He "forgot" he had it. As the cheif of fucking police you should know where the hell your gun is at all times.

My Dad has been a cop in Detroit for 27 years. I can honstly say that from the long time friends of his on the force, there are some truly honest and respectable folks there. But the problem comes in where you got low numbers of cops, so the top brass pretty much hires anybody that walks through the door. This is where you low lifes and crooks come into the picture. My dad has been promoted twice because of things like this. When the head of the narcotics division's daughter is present at a drug bust, and all the dealers so that no she's not one of our girlfriends, she's our supplier, things are a bit fishy. My dad's also been skipped over for positions because he wouldn't kiss somebody's ass and told them what he really thought instead of what they want to hear. I guess what I'm saying is when you have these egomanics and crooks making decisions, it hurts the ability of those who are actually trying to do something worthwhile.

My Dad worked for the longest time doing Special Crimes Section, or as they where known to everbody "Gangsquad" There were so many times he said where they would pick up some gang bangin kid for doing something really stupid, and when they talked to them they seemed so bright, but its wasted because they just feel like there is nothing that the world has to offer them. It's a really sad situation. It's like an ongoing circle.

Yeah, I know i'm ranting, but it's pretty frustrating to see something like this happen. You watch people piss away their life and the lives of others and it sucks because you can see the diamond in the ground, but people countinue to shovel dirt on top of it.

DoctorPhanan · Post by **DoctorPhanan** » 2005-08-17 09:51pm

Sorry, but I have to say it. NO MANS LAND! Get Batman, and have the government declare goth- I mean Detroit a No Man's land and witch draw support. Then have the people war with each other for a few months, until a shady individual begins to fund and rebuild it from his own pocket for his own purposes.

Okay now back to your regularly scheduled thread.