Moderator: NecronLord
You mean the ones decended from the EMPEROR himself who are destined to ressurect himWhy? Non-Chaos-suceptible humans exist in the 40K universe, and have as much sentience as anyone else. In theory, anyone from another universe would essentially have the powers of a necron praiah vis a vis Chaos entities. They don't have warp souls. They never will.
They had, as you say, a Demon Prince perverting their rituals. Just because they weren't smart enough to detect it, doesn't mean they were under the Chaos God converts a la Age of Empires Priest unit effect that lying 40Kers claim exists.Black Admiral wrote:Again I point to the Soul Drinkers.
They were worshipping Chaos for a time, as well as being corrupted by it (including large-scale mutation) and they didn't know until the daemon prince responsible outright told them so. They thought they were fighting for the Emperor.
Buzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!the .303 bookworm wrote:You mean the ones decended from the EMPEROR himself who are destined to ressurect him
Bzzzt right back at you. Bloodlust is the end result, not the beginning.NecronLord wrote:Bzzt. Killing doesn't make you Khornate. Especially not if you use killing under the pretense of justice. Wanton bloodlust makes you Khornate.Lord Zentei wrote:Khorne.
Codex: Chaos wrote:On every one of the million and more world that make up the Imperium there exist bodies of armed men. From the smallest garrison to the most populous fortress-world guarding an entire sector, warriors gather and train. Amidst these groups grow elite cadres, warrior-cults for whom martial pride and honour is all. Honour may give these men strength on the field of battle, but against Khorne it will prove their undoing, for pride becomes conceit in the Realm of Chaos, and from conceit is but a short step to tyrrany.
Whatever.It's rather more insidious than that, NL.Trust me. I know what I'm talking about. Likely better than you.
Bolded for clarification. You can join a Chaos cult without realizing that it is a chaos cult, and you don't need to join a cult to become damned in any case, as several examples show. There is a shitload of cults and religions in the B5 verse, some less than wholesome. Ample opportunity for the Chaos Gods to do some corrupting.Incorrect. They can be made to join cults that worship chaos dieties in disguise, but they still have to join the cult.A potential cultist can easily bend to chaos without realizing it or wanting it.
Quixos became insane as a result of his corruption. Incidentally, his being a psyker and researching the Warp wasn't a prerequisite for his being corrupted. I did mention the Inquisition's penchant for wiping out people that have simply been in proximity to Chaos influence, didn't I?1 - Quixos was, IIRC, a psyker.Hell, the Inquisition will often exterminate soldiers that have fought in an anti-chaos campaign simply because they might have been infected with something. There are canon examples of people's path to being corrupted being initiated simply by being wounded by Chaos weaponry, Inquisitor Quixos not being the least of them. You're telling me that if one of the greatest Inquisitors of the 40K-verse was not immune that regular joes of other settings can "just say no?"
2 - Quixos was insane with old age.
3 - He was already investigating the warp.
If you can't tell the difference between this and "OMFG THE INVADERS HAVE NO EMPEROR, CHOSA WILL GET EM ALL" you are not even worth talking to. No one is saying it can't be done with the best of intentions, but Chaos Worship must be a concious choice.
Strawman, dude. Kindly don't confuse me with the SB babies.Given that people go insane from those diseases, I'd have to disagree. And when did I compare this shit to Dark Archons?No different from any other form of duress. In the end, it's a choice, admittedly with dire conseqences. 40Kers, especially in vs against superior forces like Star Wars, like to claim it is like the Dark Archons in starcraft. A chaos god pushes a button and the enemy converts.Nurgle's diseases will still affect people and whisper into their minds that he is wlling to abate their suffering in return for the dark pledge.
Fuckssake, NL. There are quite a number of degrees of difference between "OMFG! SW is doomed!" and "The Chaos powers won't be able to corrupt the folks of the SW and B5"And? How does this change the fact that 40Kers are liars when they say the GE, or the First Ones are doomed to Chaos Infestation the moment they go near 40K?Ignorance of what the Chaos Gods are or what they are capable of will be a problem: the temptations of Chaos are deeply ingrained in the human psyche and a guy needn't know what he is getting himself into. Damnation happens by inperceptible increments. It's not as though the doorbell rings and "Hi! My name is Slaanesh, and I have a one time offer of hot looks and great power in return for your soul" and such.
That is not a given.Why? Non-Chaos-suceptible humans exist in the 40K universe, and have as much sentience as anyone else. In theory, anyone from another universe would essentially have the powers of a necron praiah vis a vis Chaos entities. They don't have warp souls. They never will.Anyway, if you deny the Chaos Gods their power, you are not being entirely fair vis-a-vis the vs scenario. You might as well claim that the Culture could resist the Time Lords on the grounds that time travel doesn't work in the Cultureverse. Bad form.
-- Asuka And until they meet a Chaos Vector, such as forbidden texts, or a proletizing Cultist, they are still not chaotic. They need to make the step from Pride to Blood-for-the-Blood-God Khorne worship.Lord Zentei wrote: Bzzzt right back at you. Bloodlust is the end result, not the beginning.
Codex: Chaos wrote:On every one of the million and more world that make up the Imperium there exist bodies of armed men. From the smallest garrison to the most populous fortress-world guarding an entire sector, warriors gather and train. Amidst these groups grow elite cadres, warrior-cults for whom martial pride and honour is all. Honour may give these men strength on the field of battle, but against Khorne it will prove their undoing, for pride becomes conceit in the Realm of Chaos, and from conceit is but a short step to tyrrany.
Assuming of course, that what is essentially, a religion, as there is no established base of knowlege for demon summoning and so forth, as there is in 40K, for the cultists to use, takes off..
Bolded for clarification. You can join a Chaos cult without realizing that it is a chaos cult, and you don't need to join a cult to become damned in any case, as several examples show. There is a shitload of cults and religions in the B5 verse, some less than wholesome. Ample opportunity for the Chaos Gods to do some corrupting.
Yes. Quixos, your example, is exceedingly flawed. And if you look up, you will note that I specifically mentioned the necessity of shooting those who are already under chaos influence, in order to keep one's self safe. The fact that you have chosen to ignore that proviso, and claim that I depict the Chaos gods as being totally impotent, is your problem, not mine.Quixos became insane as a result of his corruption. Incidentally, his being a psyker and researching the Warp wasn't a prerequisite for his being corrupted. I did mention the Inquisition's penchant for wiping out people that have simply been in proximity to Chaos influence, didn't I?
Absolutely incorrect. You are defending their typical tactics. The assumption that every race in B5 is immediately going to fall to chaos at the touch of a warpy button is exactly what I am arguing against, and exactly what you are arguing for. What with you popping up after my initial post which was, oh yes, "I think you people aren't giving the First Ones enough credit here. You have to invite Chaos to corrupt you, and supplicate yourself before it. 40K debators, especially those on SB.com have a nasty no limits fallacy regarding Chaos corruption, that they can corrupt anyone." Given that you are arguing against this, you either think that the First Ones are unable to resist, which has not been the thrust of your argument, or that Chaos can corrupt anyone, which has been the thrust of your argument.
That is the thrust of the typical 40KWanker argument that 'Chaos is able to corrupt anything in no time at all, with no vectors, and with no chance of resistance.'
Given that people go insane from those diseases, I'd have to disagree. And when did I compare this shit to Dark Archons?
Unfortunately, that [no one will turn] wasn't what I was saying, was it? It is what you claim I was saying. Wow. Look who's holding the straw-man now.
Fuckssake, NL. There are quite a number of degrees of difference between "OMFG! SW is doomed!" and "The Chaos powers won't be able to corrupt the folks of the SW and B5"
Oh yes it is. Do you see the effects of Chaos in Babylon Five? What about Star Wars (well, actually, some of the 'aliens' could be Chaos mutants, but anyway). The prescence of Chaos has some rather noticable effects.
That is not a given.
You can join a Chaos cult without realizing that it is a chaos cult, and you don't need to join a cult to become damned in any case, as several examples show. There is a shitload of cults and religions in the B5 verse, some less than wholesome. Ample opportunity for the Chaos Gods to do some corrupting. And in any case it doesn't take more than a few mad prophets to start a new cult. How the hell did the Chaos Gods gain any followers to begin with otherwise?NecronLord wrote:And until they meet a Chaos Vector, such as forbidden texts, or a proletizing Cultist, they are still not chaotic. They need to make the step from Pride to Blood-for-the-Blood-God Khorne worship.
Bullshit. I am not defending their typical tactics at all. I am questioning the assertion that B5 and SW populations are by and large incorruptible. And "Chaos can corrupt anyone" has not beem the thrust of my argument in the slightest. Where the hell did I say that the First Ones would be unable to resist?Absolutely incorrect. You are defending their typical tactics. The assumption that every race in B5 is immediately going to fall to chaos at the touch of a warpy button is exactly what I am arguing against, and exactly what you are arguing for. What with you popping up after my initial post which was, oh yes, "I think you people aren't giving the First Ones enough credit here. You have to invite Chaos to corrupt you, and supplicate yourself before it. 40K debators, especially those on SB.com have a nasty no limits fallacy regarding Chaos corruption, that they can corrupt anyone." Given that you are arguing against this, you either think that the First Ones are unable to resist, which has not been the thrust of your argument, or that Chaos can corrupt anyone, which has been the thrust of your argument.
Which I never stated. Unless I subconciously typed it in invisible font somewhere.That is the thrust of the typical 40KWanker argument that 'Chaos is able to corrupt anything in no time at all, with no vectors, and with no chance of resistance.'Given that people go insane from those diseases, I'd have to disagree. And when did I compare this shit to Dark Archons?
No. I was referring to this:Unfortunately, that [no one will turn] wasn't what I was saying, was it? It is what you claim I was saying. Wow. Look who's holding the straw-man now.Fuckssake, NL. There are quite a number of degrees of difference between "OMFG! SW is doomed!" and "The Chaos powers won't be able to corrupt the folks of the SW and B5"
Anyway this quote of yours means that you accept that SW personel either have warpsouls or that warpsouls are not needed for corruption. My point was as follows: "Given that you claim that Moffs are corruptible by Chaos, how are other SW people not corruptible?" I was using your conclusion that "the bulk of the population is immune but some are not immune" up to question, not that you were claiming that everyone was immune. If a Moff is corruptible, so are the mainstrem SW humans from which race they hail. Or are Moffs the only ones who have Warpsouls or are they the only ones who don't need them to become chaotic?Talking of SW types. It'd be easy enough to corrupt a lot of Imperial Moffs, but the average soldier or sailor? Hah. No.
I don't see the Chaos Gods in B5 either, for that matter. Neither do I see the B5 hyperspace in Trek, that doesn't mean we should conclude that it doesn't exist for the purpose of versus scenarios.Oh yes it is. Do you see the effects of Chaos in Babylon Five? What about Star Wars (well, actually, some of the 'aliens' could be Chaos mutants, but anyway). The prescence of Chaos has some rather noticable effects.That is not a given.
That you did, then you went on to say "Talking of SW types. It'd be easy enough to corrupt a lot of Imperial Moffs, but the average soldier or sailor? Hah. No." I called you on it, and since then the argument veered into "no warpsouls" terrirory.Yes. Quixos, your example, is exceedingly flawed. And if you look up, you will note that I specifically mentioned the necessity of shooting those who are already under chaos influence, in order to keep one's self safe. The fact that you have chosen to ignore that proviso, and claim that I depict the Chaos gods as being totally impotent, is your problem, not mine.
"You people", huh? Anyway, the IoM does indeed wipe out it's own minions via exterminatus. I fail to see how that is any different.What you people seem never to get is that Chaos needs a vector. It needs a 40K style psyker to possess. Or it needs a worshipper to pass around its magical texts. Or it needs a plague bearer to pass around its diseases. None of these offer any means of corrupting a force that decides to say "fuckit" and wipe the mortal minions out via Death Star.
-- Asuka Posessed psykers and artifacts, are in fact, the usual means of starting a Chaos Cult.Lord Zentei wrote:You can join a Chaos cult without realizing that it is a chaos cult, and you don't need to join a cult to become damned in any case, as several examples show. There is a shitload of cults and religions in the B5 verse, some less than wholesome. Ample opportunity for the Chaos Gods to do some corrupting. And in any case it doesn't take more than a few mad prophets to start a new cult. How the hell did the Chaos Gods gain any followers to begin with otherwise?
You didn't. Which means you are presumably arguing agianst the other key point of my position, which is that 40KWankers inflate the seduction abilities of Chaos into the realm of the absurd and ludicrous.
Bullshit. I am not defending their typical tactics at all. I am questioning the assertion that B5 and SW populations are by and large incorruptible. And "Chaos can corrupt anyone" has not beem the thrust of my argument in the slightest. Where the hell did I say that the First Ones would be unable to resist?
You are arguing against my position, which is that that is not true. Therefore, you are either 1- blathering incoherently, or 2- aruging that it is true.
Which I never stated. Unless I subconciously typed it in invisible font somewhere.
No. I was referring to this:
Anyway this quote of yours means that you accept that SW personel either have warpsouls or that warpsouls are not needed for corruption. My point was as follows: "Given that you claim that Moffs are corruptible by Chaos, how are other SW people not corruptible?" I was using your conclusion that "the bulk of the population is immune but some are not immune" up to question, not that you were claiming that everyone was immune. If a Moff is corruptible, so are the mainstrem SW humans from which race they hail. Or are Moffs the only ones who have Warpsouls or are they the only ones who don't need them to become chaotic?Talking of SW types. It'd be easy enough to corrupt a lot of Imperial Moffs, but the average soldier or sailor? Hah. No.
If none of them have warpsouls, then none of them will be affected. If they do have warpsouls, then the bulk of the population will sill be immune, because even in 40K, until the late stages of a planetary rebellion, hardly any of the 'common herd' are in the Cults, while the likes of an Imperial Moff are likely to be seduced because of the reasons stated above, Joe Q Peasant needs far more coercion to move to Chaos.Oddly enough, yes. However, such things are generally assumed to exist but be undiscovered by the perameters of a given 'vs' scenario. As I said when this point first appeared, it is sheer pedantry. And you know full well that I do not stand by such a humourously raised point, or at least, you should be able to tell that.
I don't see the Chaos Gods in B5 either, for that matter. Neither do I see the B5 hyperspace in Trek, that doesn't mean we should conclude that it doesn't exist for the purpose of versus scenarios.
You 'called' me on the fact that the average Joe doesn't become subverted to Chaos without severe Duress? I don't see you 'calling' me on that. Hell, the fact that every world of the Imperium is not infested with millions of Chaos Cultists is rather indicative that the average man does not become a Chaos Cultist under normal circumstances.
That you did, then you went on to say "Talking of SW types. It'd be easy enough to corrupt a lot of Imperial Moffs, but the average soldier or sailor? Hah. No." I called you on it, and since then the argument veered into "no warpsouls" terrirory.
Simply put, the IoM has psykers, who act as conduits for warp entities. If it weren't for that little problem, they would have stamped out Chaos Worship long ago. As it is, Chaos groups either hold their own against the Imperium, or get destroyed. Either way, in a few weeks, another Chaos 'Prophet' will appear on another world and start the whole thing over again.
"You people", huh? Anyway, the IoM does indeed wipe out it's own minions via exterminatus. I fail to see how that is any different.
Le sigh. There's nothing special that makes an Imperial Governor somehow a chaos magnet. The Moffs we have seen (this does not for the record, include Jerjerrod, commander of the Second Death Star, who is no meglomaniac, but would be an ideal candidate for Khorne worship, given his description in the RotJ novellisation, but anyway, I digress) have the typical personality type of a Chaos Cultist. The average Joe P CloneTrooper, does not. Similarly, if such a Moff does not have contact with a Chaos Preacher, or a Chaos Artifact, or a Nugle Pestilence Enema, he will not become sufficiently aware of the Ruinous Powers to join them, will he? Which is the point.
Particularly when the Moffs you accept to be corruptible are the ones commanding said Death Stars.
That they are, though not the only ones.NecronLord wrote:Posessed psykers and artifacts, are in fact, the usual means of starting a Chaos Cult.Lord Zentei wrote:You can join a Chaos cult without realizing that it is a chaos cult, and you don't need to join a cult to become damned in any case, as several examples show. There is a shitload of cults and religions in the B5 verse, some less than wholesome. Ample opportunity for the Chaos Gods to do some corrupting. And in any case it doesn't take more than a few mad prophets to start a new cult. How the hell did the Chaos Gods gain any followers to begin with otherwise?
Nonsense. I was arguing against your assertion that regular joes in the SW Imperial armed forces were not going to be corrupted, while the Moffs were. I wasn't arguing against your points regarding the First Ones at all, nor anything regarding 40K wankers.You didn't. Which means you are presumably arguing agianst the other key point of my position, which is that 40KWankers inflate the seduction abilities of Chaos into the realm of the absurd and ludicrous.Bullshit. I am not defending their typical tactics at all. I am questioning the assertion that B5 and SW populations are by and large incorruptible. And "Chaos can corrupt anyone" has not beem the thrust of my argument in the slightest. Where the hell did I say that the First Ones would be unable to resist?
Jesus, you don't get it. Once again: I was arguing against your assertion that regular joes in the SW Imperial armed forces were not going to be corrupted, while the Moffs were.You are arguing against my position, which is that that is not true. Therefore, you are either 1- blathering incoherently, or 2- aruging that it is true.Which I never stated. Unless I subconciously typed it in invisible font somewhere.
In other words, given your acceptance that Moffs can be affected, you are suggenting that they have Warpsouls. I'd question the assertion that Joe Q Peasant needs more coercion to turn to Chaos, given that the Chaos Cults frequently recruit from the dregs of society. "Join us and we'll help you curbstomp your opressors!"No. I was referring to this:
Anyway this quote of yours means that you accept that SW personel either have warpsouls or that warpsouls are not needed for corruption. My point was as follows: "Given that you claim that Moffs are corruptible by Chaos, how are other SW people not corruptible?" I was using your conclusion that "the bulk of the population is immune but some are not immune" up to question, not that you were claiming that everyone was immune. If a Moff is corruptible, so are the mainstrem SW humans from which race they hail. Or are Moffs the only ones who have Warpsouls or are they the only ones who don't need them to become chaotic?Talking of SW types. It'd be easy enough to corrupt a lot of Imperial Moffs, but the average soldier or sailor? Hah. No.
So you weren't being serious? That's good to know. Certainly seemed different two or three posts ago.Oddly enough, yes. However, such things are generally assumed to exist but be undiscovered by the perameters of a given 'vs' scenario. As I said when this point first appeared, it is sheer pedantry. And you know full well that I do not stand by such a humourously raised point, or at least, you should be able to tell that.I don't see the Chaos Gods in B5 either, for that matter. Neither do I see the B5 hyperspace in Trek, that doesn't mean we should conclude that it doesn't exist for the purpose of versus scenarios.
My first contribution on this thread: LinkYou 'called' me on the fact that the average Joe doesn't become subverted to Chaos without severe Duress? I don't see you 'calling' me on that. Hell, the fact that every world of the Imperium is not infested with millions of Chaos Cultists is rather indicative that the average man does not become a Chaos Cultist under normal circumstances.That you did, then you went on to say "Talking of SW types. It'd be easy enough to corrupt a lot of Imperial Moffs, but the average soldier or sailor? Hah. No." I called you on it, and since then the argument veered into "no warpsouls" terrirory.
While psykers are beneficial to the flowering of Chaos worship they are not essential. Khorne, for one doesn't rely on psykers. Anyway, the absence of the Warp in SW and B5 makes it difficult to assess who will be susceptible and who won't. Given that if we assume that if the Warp were to be introduced to SW or B5, that people will receive warpsouls, how can we not assume that some of these are "open" to the Warp? Why do we assume that existing psykers are going to be immune to telepathic attacks by daemonic entities given that such psykers can be mind controlled in their own settings?Simply put, the IoM has psykers, who act as conduits for warp entities. If it weren't for that little problem, they would have stamped out Chaos Worship long ago. As it is, Chaos groups either hold their own against the Imperium, or get destroyed. Either way, in a few weeks, another Chaos 'Prophet' will appear on another world and start the whole thing over again."You people", huh? Anyway, the IoM does indeed wipe out it's own minions via exterminatus. I fail to see how that is any different.
I disagree wit the bolded bit moreso after the Stormtroopers started being recruited rather than test tube grown.Le sigh. There's nothing special that makes an Imperial Governor somehow a chaos magnet. The Moffs we have seen (this does not for the record, include Jerjerrod, commander of the Second Death Star, who is no meglomaniac, but would be an ideal candidate for Khorne worship, given his description in the RotJ novellisation, but anyway, I digress) have the typical personality type of a Chaos Cultist. The average Joe P CloneTrooper, does not. Similarly, if such a Moff does not have contact with a Chaos Preacher, or a Chaos Artifact, or a Nugle Pestilence Enema, he will not become sufficiently aware of the Ruinous Powers to join them, will he? Which is the point.Particularly when the Moffs you accept to be corruptible are the ones commanding said Death Stars.
-- Asuka Which is blatantly untrue, as most of the Moffs we have seen are exactly the right personality type. No compunction whatsoever about causing deaths (to the extent of Jerjjerod, whose twin loves, according to the RotJ novellisation are war and blowing shit up) an insatiable lust for power, and a willingness to degrade themselves (neccessery, given Palpatine's character). These are ideal traits in a potential Chaos Cultist.Lord Zentei wrote:My claim was that the Moff wouldn't neccesarily be more susceptible than the average trooper.
They are still extensively made up of clones. Just not from the Fett lineage. Those who aren't clones are put through rigourous mental conditioning. Look at Kyp Durron's brother, who can't even remember not being a stormtrooper.I disagree with the bolded bit moreso after the Stormtroopers started being recruited rather than test tube grown.
Indeed. and all the officer corps and commander corps is not at all different. Moreover the Stormies would certainly follow them. Witness the manner of the fall of the Emperor's Children legion.NecronLord wrote:Which is blatantly untrue, as most of the Moffs we have seen are exactly the right personality type. No compunction whatsoever about causing deaths (to the extent of Jerjjerod, whose twin loves, according to the RotJ novellisation are war and blowing shit up) an insatiable lust for power, and a willingness to degrade themselves (neccessery, given Palpatine's character). These are ideal traits in a potential Chaos Cultist.Lord Zentei wrote:My claim was that the Moff wouldn't neccesarily be more susceptible than the average trooper.
Blindly following orders of a feared leader who is susceptible to Chaos corruption is not a ideal trait for a cultist? In any case with the intense and draconian training I daresay that the average trooper would be interested in a deal to make him more powerful.In comparison, the average Imperial Soldier follows orders, and well, that's it. Even the conscripts are made to go through mind altering indoctrination, to the point of not being able to remember anything before their 'recruitment' into the Imperial Armed Forces. These are not ideal traits in a Chaos Cultist. Indeed, they're a long way from ideal.
See above points.They are still extensively made up of clones. Just not from the Fett lineage. Those who aren't clones are put through rigourous mental conditioning. Look at Kyp Durron's brother, who can't even remember not being a stormtrooper.I disagree with the bolded bit moreso after the Stormtroopers started being recruited rather than test tube grown.
-- Asuka I reiterate:NecronLord wrote:Err. Yes. Of course Joe P Clonetrooper will do as a chaotic commander tells him. Did I ever say otherwise?
Does it mean that Joe P Clonetrooper will not be resistant to chaotic corruption? No.
-- Asuka -- Asuka
Yeah, I know.Matt Huang wrote:I believe it was when Obi Wan mind-tricked the stormtroopers in ANH.Lord Zentei wrote:Ghetto edit: incidentally, I can't help but recall some scenes in ANH and AotC where it is stated that stormies are weak willed.
"These are not the droids you are looking for."
-- Asuka I doubt it. Obedience is what is stressed, or they'd all be out to become Death Star gunners.Lord Zentei wrote:* In any case with the intense and draconian training I daresay that the average trooper would be interested in a deal to make him more powerful.
Aside from the fact that the Stormtroopers are more disciplined than the Chapters that fall to chaos (Flesh Tearers, I'm looking at you) tend to be. Furthermore, one will note that the vast majority of Chaos Space Marines fell due to some massive flaw in their training (night lords) or the inadequacies of their non-indoctrinated leaders.
* Is the conditioning of the stormies more effective against the whisperings of Chaos than that of the Space Marines?
Yes. They have little ambition, or drive of their own. This is irrelevant unless they were to come into contact with a posessed artifact or some such item.Lord Zentei wrote:Ghetto edit: incidentally, I can't help but recall some scenes in ANH and AotC where it is stated that stormies are weak willed.
The thing is, their scheming tends to be aimed at (in their minds) the ultimate good of others. This is not entirely in line with the self centred outlook most Tzeentchians display.Nephtys wrote:Looking at this well... let's see. Shadows'll fall for Tzeench fast. They're the ultimate schemers of the B5verse, pitting races against each other for their plans.
Who says they aren't?NecronLord wrote:I doubt it. Obedience is what is stressed, or they'd all be out to become Death Star gunners.Lord Zentei wrote:* In any case with the intense and draconian training I daresay that the average trooper would be interested in a deal to make him more powerful.
But seriously, they live to please their masters and their training is certainly demanding. Obedience may be stressed but so is performance "only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise, etc". What do you think happens to those that fail to perform superbly?The Emperor's Children were supremely disciplined, as were the Iron Warriors. Moreover the Emperor had ample knowledge of Chaos and still half of his warrior elite fell. Lastly, inadequacies of their non-indoctrinated leaders was in fact a possible mechanism I mentioned for stormie corruption, right?Aside from the fact that the Stormtroopers are more disciplined than the Chapters that fall to chaos (Flesh Tearers, I'm looking at you) tend to be. Furthermore, one will note that the vast majority of Chaos Space Marines fell due to some massive flaw in their training (night lords) or the inadequacies of their non-indoctrinated leaders.* Is the conditioning of the stormies more effective against the whisperings of Chaos than that of the Space Marines?
There are similarities to be sure, though the specifics of their protection against Chaos is very exacting. I daresay that there are similarities between a cultist's suffusion with the will of their chosen patron and Palpy's Battle Meld mojo as well.I will, furthermore, note that the Stormtrooper training is most similar to the training of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. The Malleus considers the wiping away of pre-service memories a good protection against Chaos corruption, both in its Stormtroopers, and in its Chamber Militant.
It is perfectly relevant to the issue of mind control, a possible precursor of Chaos corruption.Yes. They have little ambition, or drive of their own. This is irrelevant unless they were to come into contact with a posessed artifact or some such item.
-- Asuka Preformance is rated below loyalty, look at Palpatine's best legion.Lord Zentei wrote:Who says they aren't?
Don't equate fanaticism with discipline. Self mutilation is hardly the practice of a disciplined and professional soldier.
The Emperor's Children
Please, those guys were more angsty than a roomfull of 15 year old boys who've just been rejected by two thousand girls in a row. Discipline my ass.
were supremely disciplined, as were the Iron Warriors.
Some of them because they disobeyed his explicit instructions on the matter, others because their leaders allowed themselves to be initiated into chaos cults (Horus) and others for other reasons.
Moreover the Emperor had ample knowledge of Chaos and still half of his warrior elite fell.
And one I didn't deny
Lastly, inadequacies of their non-indoctrinated leaders was in fact a possible mechanism I mentioned for stormie corruption, right?
Barring that Palpy didn't do it all the time, and that this has no relevance to the matter at hand, given that Palpatine was able to do it to his soldiers regardless of their wills, whereas the Chaos Dieties preform the same end result in an entirely different manner.
There are similarities to be sure, though the specifics of their protection against Chaos is very exacting. I daresay that there are similarities between a cultist's suffusion with the will of their chosen patron and Palpy's Battle Meld mojo as well.
By that logic, the Grey Knights should have fallen. They're mind controlled after all. A possible precursor of chaos corruption.
It is perfectly relevant to the issue of mind control, a possible precursor of Chaos corruption.
Oh, please. This is covered in SWvsST debates.NecronLord wrote:Preformance is rated below loyalty, look at Palpatine's best legion.
Whatever. Their emphasis was upon absolute loyalty, and that led to their fall. In any case, it is debatable whether fanaticism precludes discipline in the case of the Marines.Don't equate fanaticism with discipline. Self mutilation is hardly the practice of a disciplined and professional soldier.The Emperor's Children
Uh, yes? They were most certainly disciplined.Please, those guys were more angsty than a roomfull of 15 year old boys who've just been rejected by two thousand girls in a row. Discipline my ass.were supremely disciplined, as were the Iron Warriors.
Which does little to argue against my point.Some of them because they disobeyed his explicit instructions on the matter, others because their leaders allowed themselves to be initiated into chaos cults (Horus) and others for other reasons.Moreover the Emperor had ample knowledge of Chaos and still half of his warrior elite fell.
Good. What the hell are we arguing about then?And one I didn't denyLastly, inadequacies of their non-indoctrinated leaders was in fact a possible mechanism I mentioned for stormie corruption, right?
I mean all the above issues are kind of beside the point then, yes?Given that he can do this regardless of their wills... does this make them more or less susceptible?Barring that Palpy didn't do it all the time, and that this has no relevance to the matter at hand, given that Palpatine was able to do it to his soldiers regardless of their wills, whereas the Chaos Dieties preform the same end result in an entirely different manner.There are similarities to be sure, though the specifics of their protection against Chaos is very exacting. I daresay that there are similarities between a cultist's suffusion with the will of their chosen patron and Palpy's Battle Meld mojo as well.
Whoa, there is a slight difference in the willpower of a Grey Knight and a Stormtrooper. Quite apart from the minor detail that they are made with geneseed from the Emperor himself and the fact that their training and screening bars all but a fraction of the applicants and is custom designed to handle Chaos...By that logic, the Grey Knights should have fallen. They're mind controlled after all. A possible precursor of chaos corruption.It is perfectly relevant to the issue of mind control, a possible precursor of Chaos corruption.
-- Asuka Who knows. You started it.Lord Zentei wrote: Good. What the hell are we arguing about then?
Who knows. It's nothing to do with their wills, he does it to standard humans too. It's a form of Jedi Battle Meditation, and says nothing about the willpower of those under his influence.
Given that he can do this regardless of their wills... does this make them more or less susceptible?
So. You say brianwashing makes you suseptible to chaos, obviously it doesn't.
Whoa, there is a slight difference in the willpower of a Grey Knight and a Stormtrooper.
Almost certainly myth.
Quite apart from the minor detail that they are made with geneseed from the Emperor himself
So? It's still proof that brainwashing isn't a first step to Chaos.
and the fact that their training and screening bars all but a fraction of the applicants and is custom designed to handle Chaos...