What happens when Starships become agile?

[brianeyci]

Given the bizarre designs of Federation ships, it's possible that they can't manouver like the Rommie Maurader without causing undue hull stress. They could conceivably snap those nacelles right off. Or in the case of the Connie, the saucer right off that skinny neck.

Do we know what kind of propulsion system the Romulans use? I didn't see the whole episode. It definitely didn't look like the Mauraders were firing thrusters. If they weren't, mass lightening comes into play.

Assuming a favorable planetary alignment, a trip from Saturn to Mars is possible in 27 minutes proper time if the impulse engines are capable of accelerating the ship at 1.37e5g. This would correspond 70-minute delay relative to Mars. While this is ridiculuously high amount of acceleration, the real question becomes is how effective their 'mass-lightening' treknology is. Is there anything in the plot that contradicts this strictly-STL interpretation?

I don't know how much 1.37e5 g is, but its certainly more than the Romulan Maurader should experience doing those maneuvers.

That is true, and the simplest answer seems to be that it's because they have no crew and the dampners are off. Both off which are stated in the episode.

I'd use the Occams Razor thingy, but I have no idea how it works, just that it's got something to do with the simplest answer being correct.

See above.

Where the hell are they going to put a dampner in a spacesuit. The ones on Enterprise don't seem to have much to them. Although I have no idea how big a dampner would have to be.

Don't know, I don't remember anything canon about inertial dampeners.

Thats pretty much in line with what a modern pilot takes to train.

Except a modern pilot gets a joystick and actual buttons and switches to manipulate I assume, rather than an LCD. The only advantage I see to using an LCD is being able to configure your controls for yourself in any way you choose, but I don't see how that offsets the loss in response time you would have especially in combat, unless your ship is basically sitting in space like a Galaxy. I wonder what the inside of a Peregrine fighter looks like, they'd better have a joystick (Ent-E has a joystick).

Brian

[Aaron]

Do we know what kind of propulsion system the Romulans use? I didn't see the whole episode. It definitely didn't look like the Mauraders were firing thrusters. If they weren't, mass lightening comes into play.

I only seen part of the second half, but I can't see how the Romulan ship could make that kind of lateral movement without firing thrusters. Impulse engines only seem to provide forward or reverse thrust.

Don't know, I don't remember anything canon about inertial dampeners.

Well the smallest known dampner is mounted on a shuttle. Since there's never been any evidence of ones mounted in a space suit (and why would there be}, I'm gonna go with the suits don't have one. At least till I see some evidence of it. Preferably mentioned on screen.

Except a modern pilot gets a joystick and actual buttons and switches to manipulate I assume, rather than an LCD. The only advantage I see to using an LCD is being able to configure your controls for yourself in any way you choose, but I don't see how that offsets the loss in response time you would have especially in combat, unless your ship is basically sitting in space like a Galaxy. I wonder what the inside of a Peregrine fighter looks like, they'd better have a joystick (Ent-E has a joystick).

Brian

The Peregrine might have a control stick. The Delta Flyer did after all. But the other Voyager crew members (Tuvok) seemed to think that it was a pretty radical design feature, so I think that points to control sticks not being used at all by SF craft.

[brianeyci]

I only seen part of the second half, but I can't see how the Romulan ship could make that kind of lateral movement without firing thrusters. Impulse engines only seem to provide forward or reverse thrust.

A lot of examples come to mind, especially with the Defiant moving lateral. Just not as violently. Impulse engines definitely provide more than just forward/reverse. If that was true, ships wouldn't be able to turn without firing thrusters.

Well the smallest known dampner is mounted on a shuttle. Since there's never been any evidence of ones mounted in a space suit (and why would there be}, I'm gonna go with the suits don't have one. At least till I see some evidence of it. Preferably mentioned on screen.

Then we don't have a satisfactory explaination why Trip and Reed survived.

The Peregrine might have a control stick. The Delta Flyer did after all. But the other Voyager crew members (Tuvok) seemed to think that it was a pretty radical design feature, so I think that points to control sticks not being used at all by SF craft.

Voyager was out of the loop for a long time. Ent-E having a joystick shows SF started having some sense. Peregrines were developed for the Dominion war, and it makes sense that if Ent-E has a joystick for quick maneuvering, Peregrines should have this as well given they are a fighter craft.

Brian

[Aaron]

A lot of examples come to mind, especially with the Defiant moving lateral. Just not as violently. Impulse engines definitely provide more than just forward/reverse. If that was true, ships wouldn't be able to turn without firing thrusters.

What do you think the purpose of RCS thrusters on starships are for? There whole purpose is to allow the ship to make lateral, and up and down moves. While I have no doubt that impulse engines can direct their thrust to a certain degree, the Romulan ship would have had to angle it's exhaust almost completley sidways (180 degrees?) to accomplish those manouvers.

Then we don't have a satisfactory explaination why Trip and Reed survived.

Bad writing.

Voyager was out of the loop for a long time. Ent-E having a joystick shows SF started having some sense. Peregrines were developed for the Dominion war, and it makes sense that if Ent-E has a joystick for quick maneuvering, Peregrines should have this as well given they are a fighter craft.

Brian

EAS credits the Peregrine and Maquis Raider as the same craft. And the Raider had bog standard SF controls.

[brianeyci]

What do you think the purpose of RCS thrusters on starships are for? There whole purpose is to allow the ship to make lateral, and up and down moves. While I have no doubt that impulse engines can direct their thrust to a certain degree, the Romulan ship would have had to angle it's exhaust almost completley sidways (180 degrees?) to accomplish those manouvers.

Not necessarily. There could have been impulse engines on the side. For example, shuttles don't seem to have some port/exhaust for their impulse engines, unless you think that the impulse engines are in the warp nacelles.

RCS thrusters on starships is just for use in spacedock par Fed regs and emergency use, at least canonically, I've never seen them used to maneuver like that.

And, even with STL a la Borg cube or Galaxy from Saturn to Earth, their inertial dampeners can handle immense accelerations. Should be no problem accelerating like the Romulan Maurader.

EAS credits the Peregrine and Maquis Raider as the same craft. And the Raider had bog standard SF controls.

Maquis Raider was overhauled to be Peregrine, not exactly the same. Before DS9, TNG had no tactical fighters. They didn't just press Maquis Raiders into a fighter role, or we would have seen them far earlier -- like fighting Borg Cube at Wolf 359, or in Picard's fleet which was trying to catch cloaked Romulan ships, both cases they were trying to get as many ships as possible. Plus, if the Maquis Raider really is the Peregrine, they would have been far more effective against Cardassian ships -- the Maquis Raider doesn't have the firepower of the Peregrine or the Maquis wouldn't be worried about a few Galors.

Brian

[Batman]

And, even with STL a la Borg cube or Galaxy from Saturn to Earth, their inertial dampeners can handle immense accelerations. Should be no problem accelerating like the Romulan Maurader.

Trek inertial dampeners can handle unknown but rather high linear accellerations they're expecting. How do you know they can handle those accellerations no matter the direction?

[brianeyci]

Trek inertial dampeners can handle unknown but rather high linear accellerations they're expecting. How do you know they can handle those accellerations no matter the direction?

We don't, but have you seen the Romulan Maurader episode? It is not that fast, just highly maneuverable That kind of acceleration is nothing for a ST ship... ST ships have handed orders on orders on orders of magnitude more acceleration. And, Q flung the Ent across the Galaxy, and IIRC the Ent-D was moving erratically and they didn't get squashed to a pulp so the inertial dampeners are not linked to "we expect to go in this direction".

Brian

[Batman]

Trek inertial dampeners can handle unknown but rather high linear accellerations they're expecting. How do you know they can handle those accellerations no matter the direction?

We don't, but have you seen the Romulan Maurader episode?

Unfortunately not. We're still clawing our way through season III over here.

It is not that fast, just highly maneuverable That kind of acceleration is nothing for a ST ship...

If you could be bothered, what exactly does it do? Or if you know a place where to find a vidcap of it, please share.

ST ships have handed orders on orders on orders of magnitude more acceleration.

Planned, and usually forward. Hence my question.

And, Q flung the Ent across the Galaxy, and IIRC the Ent-D was moving erratically and they didn't get squashed to a pulp so the inertial dampeners are not linked to "we expect to go in this direction".

Ahem. FTL event. Non-Newtonian.

[brianeyci]

Unfortunately not. We're still clawing our way through season III over here.

Ah.

If you could be bothered, what exactly does it do? Or if you know a place where to find a vidcap of it, please share.

It moves out of the way of photon torpedo/phaser blasts by NX-01. If we take photons to move at 600 m/s, that is not that impressive.

Its as if the Romulan Maurader has more advanced technology than hundreds of years more advanced ships. Cpl. Kendall has proposed... well its a spoiler, but since you chose to reply you probably read already... that because the ship was unmanned, it is able to handle accelerations like that, but that's hardly satisfying <edit> because it wasn't really unmanned, Trip and Reed were on it and they didn't get squashed </edit>.

Brian

[Aaron]

Not necessarily. There could have been impulse engines on the side. For example, shuttles don't seem to have some port/exhaust for their impulse engines, unless you think that the impulse engines are in the warp nacelles.

We're going to need screen caps to prove or disprove this. I don't remember seeing impulse engines mounted on the sides, but I don't want to rely solely on my memory.

As for the shuttles, I think thats a SFX gaff. We know that impulse engines put out thrust, so they need an exhaust port.

RCS thrusters on starships is just for use in spacedock par Fed regs and emergency use, at least canonically, I've never seen them used to maneuver like that.

Then how do they turn?

And, even with STL a la Borg cube or Galaxy from Saturn to Earth, their inertial dampeners can handle immense accelerations. Should be no problem accelerating like the Romulan Maurader.

Than why don't all ships manouver like the Maruader?

Maquis Raider was overhauled to be Peregrine, not exactly the same. Before DS9, TNG had no tactical fighters. They didn't just press Maquis Raiders into a fighter role, or we would have seen them far earlier -- like fighting Borg Cube at Wolf 359, or in Picard's fleet which was trying to catch cloaked Romulan ships, both cases they were trying to get as many ships as possible. Plus, if the Maquis Raider really is the Peregrine, they would have been far more effective against Cardassian ships -- the Maquis Raider doesn't have the firepower of the Peregrine or the Maquis wouldn't be worried about a few Galors.

Brian

We've seen the Raiders take on Galors before and win in TNG.

[Batman]

It moves out of the way of photon torpedo/phaser blasts by NX-01. If we take photons to move at 600 m/s, that is not that impressive.

In what manner? You mentioned it 'rolling' to do so. I know that propably wasn't it but that could be interpreted as a simple barrel roll for which the accelleration is negligible to absurd depending on the roll rate, and we already know Trek capships can do it, if not as fast.
No, I do NOT believe it was a simple barrel roll. But what WAS it?

[Enigma]

<snip>
We've seen the Raiders take on Galors before and win in TNG.

And we've seen a Galor take down E-D's shields by 60% with just two shots, enough for E-D to make a retreat.

[brianeyci]

We're going to need screen caps to prove or disprove this. I don't remember seeing impulse engines mounted on the sides, but I don't want to rely solely on my memory.

As for the shuttles, I think thats a SFX gaff. We know that impulse engines put out thrust, so they need an exhaust port.

Impulse engines never put out thrust, and sometimes we never see an exhaust port. Impulse engines do not follow Newtonian physics, for example the Borg cube moved from Saturn to Earth on impulse, and Ent-D moved from Saturn to Earth on impulse. It is not a traditonal thruster system. Borg cube moves on impulse and we never see exhaust or exhaust ports.

Then how do they turn?

They use their impulse engines, not necessarily a thruster system.

Than why don't all ships manouver like the Maruader?

I think a good theory is that Federation ships are accurate enough to hit ships that maneuver like this. Alyeska has mentioned that Fed ships have 90%+ hit percentage against small ships less than 200m in length. For opponents... well, they just don't have the kind of advanced impulse engines to do this. And the Romulans... their strategy is decloak with a Warbird, fire all weapons and obliterate their opponent, and recloak. Take a look at the Warbird, one look tells you this is what it is designed to do. They probably abandoned their "fighter" concept in favour of their sneaky hit-and-run Warbird tactic.

For others like the Klingons/etc... well, they may not have advanced enough impulse to maneuver like this.

Also, this question is not trivial. Continuity has been broken before... why does Kirk and Picard not have models of NX-01, why can they overload phase pistols to 10 MJ to shoot down Borg when they have to bother with frequencies hundreds of years later... I am just pointing out that "agile starships" already exist, as what Stravo was asking.

We've seen the Raiders take on Galors before and win in TNG.

Really? Damn, was it explicitly mentioned as Galor? I search for Galor on TNG and come up with only two references, nothing to do with Maquis fighting a Galor.

Brian

[brianeyci]

In what manner? You mentioned it 'rolling' to do so. I know that propably wasn't it but that could be interpreted as a simple barrel roll for which the accelleration is negligible to absurd depending on the roll rate, and we already know Trek capships can do it, if not as fast.
No, I do NOT believe it was a simple barrel roll. But what WAS it?

I don't know what else I can say if you haven't seen it. It rolls to the side, dodging the torpedo... not narrowly, but easily dodging the torpedo. It was very fast, and the Romulan Maurader is a very small craft like a shuttle.

Brian

[Uraniun235]

And we've seen a Galor take down E-D's shields by 60% with just two shots, enough for E-D to make a retreat.

We've also seen a Galor take a shot at an unshielded E-D, then get bitchsmacked for it's trouble while the E-D was barely dented.

[brianeyci]

<snip>
We've seen the Raiders take on Galors before and win in TNG.

And we've seen a Galor take down E-D's shields by 60% with just two shots, enough for E-D to make a retreat.

Galors can't fight Ent-D and win. A couple phaser blasts lowering the shields to 60% is consistent with Trek shield strength, if 10 torpedoes can lower a pre-war refit Ent-D's shields. Meanwhile, the Ent-D could have unleashed several phaser blasts and a spread of torpedoes, annihilating the Galor.

Brian

[Aaron]

Impulse engines never put out thrust, and sometimes we never see an exhaust port. Impulse engines do not follow Newtonian physics, for example the Borg cube moved from Saturn to Earth on impulse, and Ent-D moved from Saturn to Earth on impulse. It is not a traditonal thruster system. Borg cube moves on impulse and we never see exhaust or exhaust ports.

Bullshit, remember the episode where Ro Laren was undercover with the Maquis? She and a flunky approached the E-D from aft in a nebula, her sheilds were up, but there was a weak point generated by the impulse engine exhaust stream. They were able to beam out medical supplies through that weak point.

They use their impulse engines, not necessarily a thruster system.

Once again I'll ask you how. They would need to angle their exhaust to do it. And there doesn't seem to be any way to physically do that. I would imagine there is a technobable explanation for it. But the range in which the thrust could be directed is limited due to warp nacelle placement on alot of ships.

Really? Damn, was it explicitly mentioned as Galor? I search for Galor on TNG and come up with only two references, nothing to do with Maquis fighting a Galor.

Brian

I don't know if it was mentioned as a Galor, but it was a Galor onscreen. Which is good enough for me.

[Enigma]

<snip>
We've seen the Raiders take on Galors before and win in TNG.

And we've seen a Galor take down E-D's shields by 60% with just two shots, enough for E-D to make a retreat.

Galors can't fight Ent-D and win. A couple phaser blasts lowering the shields to 60% is consistent with Trek shield strength, if 10 torpedoes can lower a pre-war refit Ent-D's shields. Meanwhile, the Ent-D could have unleashed several phaser blasts and a spread of torpedoes, annihilating the Galor.

Brian

So a Galor's phaser\disruptor (whatever) shot is rated at at least 3 torpedos?

While it is obvious that the E-D or any Galaxy class starship can take out a Galor (a refit Galaxy can take out a Galor with one phaser shot) then why did Picard chicken out?

[brianeyci]

Bullshit, remember the episode where Ro Laren was undercover with the Maquis? She and a flunky approached the E-D from aft in a nebula, her sheilds were up, but there was a weak point generated by the impulse engine exhaust stream. They were able to beam out medical supplies through that weak point.

It wasn't actually a weak point, they let them beam the medical supplies through. It was a simulated weak point, and Ro Laren could have been bullshitting.

Anyway, remember the Chang BOP thingy, when they tracked the exhaust? They never use that tactic again. Either they find a way to dissipate the exhaust so that it is untrackable, or there is no trackable exhaust in modern warships and Chang was using his thrusters, when more modern Warbirds use their impulse.

Once again I'll ask you how. They would need to angle their exhaust to do it. And there doesn't seem to be any way to physically do that. I would imagine there is a technobable explanation for it. But the range in which the thrust could be directed is limited due to warp nacelle placement on alot of ships.

If movement was limited by nacelle placement, then we wouldn't get shots like shuttles or ships moving vertically up. I'm sure I can find some if I look, epecially the TOS era. Impulse engines are not Newtonian, so they don't rely on F = ma, so therefore they might not need to angle their exhaust. That is the best answer I have now. Perhaps impulse engines generate a field effect that moves the ship in the desired direction. More is here. Although DTIL mentiones exhaust, that isn't canon. And they mention a field effect.

Also... impulse engines aren't on the warp nacelles generally? The Constitution has its impulse engines on the back of the saucer section.

And... the Maurader could have been using their standard impulse engines, but angling their exhaust, as you mentioned. Sure you can't angle your exhaust 180 degrees, but who says you need to do that?

I won't be convinced the Maurader used thrusters unless I see visible exhaust.

I don't know if it was mentioned as a Galor, but it was a Galor onscreen. Which is good enough for me.

Remember what episode it was/what happened the episode, I don't remember Maquis raiders ever defeating the Galor... did they actually destroy the Galor and win, or was it a stalemate, and how many Raiders were fighting the Galor?

Brian

[brianeyci]

So a Galor's phaser\disruptor (whatever) shot is rated at at least 3 torpedos?

No the ten torpedoes is a totally arbitrary figure based on requiring a spread of torpedoes to take out a Galaxy's shields.

While it is obvious that the E-D or any Galaxy class starship can take out a Galor (a refit Galaxy can take out a Galor with one phaser shot) then why did Picard chicken out?

Tell me why Riker chickened out against Ferengi Maurader, against Son'a, against an ancient BoP, and you'll have the answer. Maybe Picard didn't want to start an interstellar war, maybe he though discretion was the better part of valor. Anyway, what episode was this?

Brian

[Aaron]

Remember what episode it was/what happened the episode, I don't remember Maquis raiders ever defeating the Galor... did they actually destroy the Galor and win, or was it a stalemate, and how many Raiders were fighting the Galor?

Brian

The episode is "Preemptive Strike", in Season 7. The Galor is under attack from at least 4 Raiders and is heavily damaged. The E-D drives them off, but the Galor would have been destroyed if she hadn't arrived. It's also the episode with the impulse exhaust.

[brianeyci]

The episode is "Preemptive Strike", in Season 7. The Galor is under attack from at least 4 Raiders and is heavily damaged. The E-D drives them off, but the Galor would have been destroyed if she hadn't arrived. It's also the episode with the impulse exhaust.

Well okay. They mention Type-eight phasers and photon torpedo equipped Raiders. Therefore photon torpedoes and these kind of phasers are not standard kit on this kind of chassis. Therefore, if Starfleet were to take the standard Raider, they would have to upgrade them. In the Dominion war, they had pulse phasers IIRC and may have had micro torpedoes. So the Fed definitely did upgrade their armadment. If they upgraded their armadment, perhaps they did an entire overhaul of the Peregrine. It wouldn't be inconsistent with SF -- SF took the chassis of a Breen Disruptor Rifle, and turned it into a TR-116, a totally unrelated projectile weapon while keeping the outer look of the BDR.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Here you go Batman, pictures of Romulan Maurader moving so fast the stars are blurred. There is no specific screenshot of the Maurader dodging phaser/photon fire, but trust me it happens (or if not ask somebody else). Also a video on startrek.com if you get there in time before the episode airs (they pull the video preview after, fuckers).





Screencaps taken from here, hosted on my own webspace. Movie from startrek.com
<edited to give credit to screencap site>

Brian

[Lancer]

waitasec. I heard something about a telepathic matrix in the preview. Are they telepathically controlling those ships?

[brianeyci]

waitasec. I heard something about a telepathic matrix in the preview. Are they telepathically controlling those ships?

Yes, with the thing T'Pol puts on her head. The Romulans were using a species of Andorian that are blind and have telepathic powers, Archer gets the Vulcan.

But after two hundred years of improvements, they shouldn't need to do this later on. Computer-controlled ships would be superior to whatever telepathic technobabble they employ in Archer's time, think of what has happened in the last fifty years IRL.

Brian