Argument against all of science

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Kuroneko wrote:Technically, the abductive argument [(Rain->Wetness)&(Wetness) -> Rain] is a logical fallacy, but there is no denying that it is the most plausible of the alternatives.
Probabilistically, could one not argue that it's a reasonable inductive conclusion to say that because wet ground = rain in most cases, the most probable explanation (in lieu of special circumstances) for an individual case of wet ground is rain?
Still, I have a certain amount of admiration of Bayesianism simply because it confronts the problem of induction head-on, rather than the Popperian "well, we don't really need it anyway" solution. Sir Popper's account of science is logically unassailable on this particular point (although not on others), but I wonder if cutting out induction completely is too high a cost.
My feelings exactly. The fact is that inductive reasoning is employed heavily, it is not entirely without merit, and Popper's answer, while potentially effective, seems to be have been formulated for the purpose of winning these arguments rather than presenting an accurate assessment of how one should realistically conduct oneself when engaged in scientific inquiry. In short, it seems like he's just playing to the rules of the philosophy debate game.

Would not medical diagnoses fall into the category of probabilistic logic? Given a set of symptoms consistent with (for example) both the common cold and an extremely rare disease, it seems a reasonable inference to say that the symptoms are far more likely to be caused by the common cold than by the rare disease, which is in turn a far more likely explanation than an entirely new as-of-yet unknown disease, which is in turn far more likely than divine interference. I suppose the conclusion "it must be the cold" would be fallacious, but the conclusion "it's probably the common cold" or even "it's almost certainly the common cold" both seem to follow logically from the evidence.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Durandal
Bile-Driven Hate Machine
Posts: 17927
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:26pm
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Contact:

Post by Durandal »

The very foundation of science rests on the idea that there can be truth values between 0 and 1. Theories (in the strictest sense) are regarded as "more accurate" or "less accurate," not "true" or "false." So proclaiming only 2 possible "truth values" is unjustified.

And from what I read, the writer uses inductive reasoning to show that science is wrong because of its reliance on inductive reasoning.
Damien Sorresso

"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
User avatar
Kuroneko
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2469
Joined: 2003-03-13 03:10am
Location: Fréchet space
Contact:

Post by Kuroneko »

Darth Wong wrote:Probabilistically, could one not argue that it's a reasonable inductive conclusion to say that because wet ground = rain in most cases, the most probable explanation (in lieu of special circumstances) for an individual case of wet ground is rain?
Yes. Your example of cold and the rare disease is also of the same type, so I'll concentrate on that.
Darth Wong wrote:My feelings exactly. The fact is that inductive reasoning is employed heavily, it is not entirely without merit, and Popper's answer, while potentially effective, seems to be have been formulated for the purpose of winning these arguments rather than presenting an accurate assessment of how one should realistically conduct oneself when engaged in scientific inquiry. In short, it seems like he's just playing to the rules of the philosophy debate game.
Well, he admits to having a motive: to demarcate Freudian psychoanalysis and Marxism as non-science. Virtually all of the scientists at the time had felt that there is something inherently nonscientific about them, but what it was precisely no one had an adequate account for. The fact that they are non-falsifiable clinched the issue. Sir Popper undoubtably recognized that while marking Freud and Marx as non-scientific would be a commended by many, the fact that it targets them specifically would be seen as very suspect in philosophical circles. Therefore, he had to offer other benefits of his falsification model, and immunizing science against the problem of induction was still no small matter. Still, regardless of his motives, his contribution was very notable.
Darth Wong wrote:Would not medical diagnoses fall into the category of probabilistic logic? Given a set of symptoms consistent with (for example) both the common cold and an extremely rare disease, it seems a reasonable inference to say that the symptoms are far more likely to be caused by the common cold than by the rare disease, which is in turn a far more likely explanation than an entirely new as-of-yet unknown disease, which is in turn far more likely than divine interference. I suppose the conclusion "it must be the cold" would be fallacious, but the conclusion "it's probably the common cold" or even "it's almost certainly the common cold" both seem to follow logically from the evidence.
Indeed. In fact, if we have the relevant data, we can do so explicitly. Suppose that a fraction C of patients examined have the cold, and a fraction R have the rare disease. There are two competing hypotheses:
  • H1: The patient has the common cold.
  • H2: The patient has the rare disease.
The general form of Bayes's Theorem, derivable from the three axioms of probability, is this: P(Hn|S) = P(S|Hn)P(Hn)/Sum[ P(S|Hk)P(Hk) ], where P(p|q) is the conditional [posterior] probability of p given q has occured, and the summation is assumed to be over exhaustive and mutually exclusive hypotheses. Plugging it in, it simplifies to P(H1|S) = 1/[1+P(S|H1)P(H1)/P(S|H2)P(H2)]. Since we suppose that the diseases cause the symptoms with very high probabilty, P(S|H1)~P(S|H2)~1, so this is essentially P(H1|S) = 1/[1+P(H1)/P(H2)]. The prior probabilities are determined statistically by the occurance rates of the cold and the rare disease. If the disease is sufficiently rare in comparison with the cold, then P(H1|S) is then very close to 1, and so we are very justified in making the conclusion of the cold when we encounter a patient with that symptom set.

To be more complete, we could also include the relevant data on the probability of failure of the sympom-set in the determination of its (very relevant to the above), introduce other possibilities for diseases, and the like... Regardless, treating such judgments as explicitly probabilistic is possible at least in principle.
User avatar
Durandal
Bile-Driven Hate Machine
Posts: 17927
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:26pm
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Contact:

Post by Durandal »

Can I propose the title of "Most Underrated Poster. Ever." title for Kuroneko? :)
Damien Sorresso

"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
User avatar
The Cleric
BANNED
Posts: 2990
Joined: 2003-08-06 09:41pm
Location: The Right Hand Of GOD

Post by The Cleric »

Durandal wrote:Can I propose the title of "Most Underrated Poster. Ever." title for Kuroneko? :)
"Logic God"?
{} Thrawn wins. Any questions? {} Great Dolphin Conspiracy {} Proud member of the defunct SEGNOR {} Enjoy the rythmic hip thrusts {} In my past life I was either Vlad the Impaler or Katsushika Hokusai {}
User avatar
phongn
Rebel Leader
Posts: 18487
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:11pm

Post by phongn »

Lord of Logic?
User avatar
Edi
Dragonlord
Dragonlord
Posts: 12461
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:27am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Post by Edi »

Durandal wrote:Can I propose the title of "Most Underrated Poster. Ever." title for Kuroneko? :)
Seconded. I read this thread through, and while I'm normally pretty comfortable with almost anything that is posted here and grasp things, this time :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :?: :!: :?:

I did understand most of what was said, but the finer details went right over my head. Probably because probability mathematics was always the thing I had most trouble with in math class...

Edi
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist

Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp

GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan

The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
User avatar
Durandal
Bile-Driven Hate Machine
Posts: 17927
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:26pm
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Contact:

Post by Durandal »

I think the title should be obvious.

"Sir Bedevere"

"Explain again how sheep bladders can be employed to prevent earthquakes."
Damien Sorresso

"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
Post Reply