Plants vs. Jedi (Trigun spoilers)

[Gil Hamilton]

I see...so when I can see in movies that bullets go about 10-20 m/s I can say obviously that has no application to low or high end whatsoever?

The vast majority of the instances in any StarWars movies is that blaster bolts is that they travel considerably slower than bullets. What you are trying to do is pick the extreme far end of the curve and claim that it's the norm, rather than the average.

And how does this prove the Jedi CANNOT block Bullets again?

We've watched the Jedi fail to block weapons that movie considerably slower than bullets. Plus, we know that the Jedi's bodies physically cannot move in the same time scale that it takes a bullet to cross a room. Sure, they can react fast enough to block a glowy bolt that takes a quarter second to reach them, that's fantastic, but their muscles aren't going up to the task of moving their arms into position to block something that takes a few hundredths of a second to cross the room.

[Ghost Rider]

Amazing that AoTC shows us they can do some astounding feats with the Force of application resulting in 1000's of gs and deflect projectiles that are faster the 400m/s-1KM/s...so they must be able to somehow allow their muscles withstand such force(or you think Anakin landing on Zev's speeder was a just luck?)

Jedi's have shown to perform deflections on blasters that shoot at 400m/s+...must mean those were the complete and total abberant and the Battle of Genosis with it?

[Darth Fanboy]

I see...so when I can see in movies that bullets go about 10-20 m/s I can say obviously that has no application to low or high end whatsoever?

And how does this prove the Jedi CANNOT block Bullets again?

With the lightsaber probably not, especially with that autmatic hidden gun.

With the FOrce though a Jedi could do something similar to what neo did at the end of the Matrix.

[Connor MacLeod]

Vash or Knives never demonstrated the ability to dodge out of the way of flying bullets either, so I fail to see what the hell relevance this has to the discussion.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Vash or Knives never demonstrated the ability to dodge out of the way of flying bullets either, so I fail to see what the hell relevance this has to the discussion.

When did the Jedi start brandishing MP5s?

[Gil Hamilton]

Vash or Knives never demonstrated the ability to dodge out of the way of flying bullets either, so I fail to see what the hell relevance this has to the discussion.

What!? You've never watch Trigun, have you? If you had, you'd notice that Vash has a freakishly good ability to not be hit by bullets, even when those bullets are being fired from automatic weapons by large crowds of thugs.

[Connor MacLeod]

Vash or Knives never demonstrated the ability to dodge out of the way of flying bullets either, so I fail to see what the hell relevance this has to the discussion.

What!? You've never watch Trigun, have you? If you had, you'd notice that Vash has a freakishly good ability to not be hit by bullets, even when those bullets are being fired from automatic weapons by large crowds of thugs.

Yes, in fact I have. But what I am saying is rooted in a physics-based impossibility.

And its impossible for him to dodge the bullets. He can react to WHERE the guns are aimed, but dodging the bullets themselves are out. A Jedi with precognition can more than easily out-react a single person without precognition and deflect the bullet by various means (force to deflect the actual projectile, etc.)

Projectile speed is utterly irrelevant ot the actual issue of defending against gunfire, because the minute the bullet fires, it would strike before the person could possibly get out of the way. There was a fucking thread on this long ago.

Aside from which, using the glowing portion to measure the speed of the bolt is ridiculous (if you want to do that, please explain why the bolt is not affected at all by gravity nor it arcs over the distances we see it move. I anticipate quite an amusing time from your efforts to do so.)

[Connor MacLeod]

When did the Jedi start brandishing MP5s?

Given demonstrated force powers, they could eaisly match or exceed the firepower of an MP5 with the Force alone Assuming you have enough suitable projectiles nearby.

[Gil Hamilton]

Aside from which, using the glowing portion to measure the speed of the bolt is ridiculous (if you want to do that, please explain why the bolt is not affected at all by gravity nor it arcs over the distances we see it move. I anticipate quite an amusing time from your efforts to do so.)

Why is it ridiculous? Regardless of whether or not the bolt is the only thing that the blaster fires, it is the part of what the blaster fires that does any damage*. For any practical purpose, the rate in which the glowy part of the bolt moves is the speed at which the bolt does damage.



*give or take. Industrial Light and Magic was never perfect when it came to effects in the original StarWars trilogy, so occasionally you'd the the squib going off out of sync with the blaster or laser effect, but I'm sure you don't actually care about the movie making aspect of StarWars, like I do, since I'm into industrial design.

[Shinova]

Yes, in fact I have. But what I am saying is rooted in a physics-based impossibility.

And its impossible for him to dodge the bullets. He can react to WHERE the guns are aimed, but dodging the bullets themselves are out. A Jedi with precognition can more than easily out-react a single person without precognition and deflect the bullet by various means (force to deflect the actual projectile, etc.)

Projectile speed is utterly irrelevant ot the actual issue of defending against gunfire, because the minute the bullet fires, it would strike before the person could possibly get out of the way. There was a fucking thread on this long ago.

Other than that:

1. He did outright dodge bullets.

2. He's far from human.

[Connor MacLeod]

Other than that:

1. He did outright dodge bullets.

Unless he's got some sort of massive TK ability that allows him to propel himself at many hundreds of meters per second squared its bloody unlikely. Its impossible for simple footwork to generate that magnitude of acceleration. And if he HAD TK enough to move himself out of the path of the bullet, he would also be able to deflect the bullet away from him (which would in fact be far easier than accelerating himself as fast as he would need to.)

What is more liekly is that he's able to see where a gun is pointed and react before the trigger is pulled. Any bullet fired at him would already strike before he could possibly move, so he "predicts" where the shot will probably be and avoids being there. In the case of a Jedi, precognition allows them to anticipate the probable hit location and then to take measures to avoid it.

2. He's far from human.

Which is irrelevant to the point I am making.

[Connor MacLeod]

Why is it ridiculous? Regardless of whether or not the bolt is the only thing that the blaster fires, it is the part of what the blaster fires that does any damage*. For any practical purpose, the rate in which the glowy part of the bolt moves is the speed at which the bolt does damage.

UIh huh. So how do you explain the fact that the bolt does not experience any drop or arcing in gravity? If these bolts were moving as slowly as you claim, they should in fact do this.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Why is it ridiculous? Regardless of whether or not the bolt is the only thing that the blaster fires, it is the part of what the blaster fires that does any damage*. For any practical purpose, the rate in which the glowy part of the bolt moves is the speed at which the bolt does damage.

UIh huh. So how do you explain the fact that the bolt does not experience any drop or arcing in gravity? If these bolts were moving as slowly as you claim, they should in fact do this.

That doesn't really negate the fact that they still travel slow enough to be seen easily, just that now they defy physics as well.

[Mr Bean]

Vash or Knives never demonstrated the ability to dodge out of the way of flying bullets either, so I fail to see what the hell relevance this has to the discussion.

Vash has demostrated on several occasions the ability to dodge a large amount of bullets from close quarters

The best example however was Ep.5 were five thugs(6?) fired everything from hand-guns to shotguns inculding a few automatics in the mix from a range no greater than 5 meters, I'll have to get a hold of it agian but just counting the bullet holes in the ground after there were between 60-80 shots fired, No of which hit him

[Admiral Valdemar]

Vash or Knives never demonstrated the ability to dodge out of the way of flying bullets either, so I fail to see what the hell relevance this has to the discussion.

Vash has demostrated on several occasions the ability to dodge a large amount of bullets from close quarters

The best example however was Ep.5 were five thugs(6?) fired everything from hand-guns to shotguns inculding a few automatics in the mix from a range no greater than 5 meters, I'll have to get a hold of it agian but just counting the bullet holes in the ground after there were between 60-80 shots fired, No of which hit him

Or the time an entire town just chased him down and couldn't even scratch him. The guy has amazing skills when it comes to not getting shot, but avoiding trouble is not his best skill.

[Gil Hamilton]

UIh huh. So how do you explain the fact that the bolt does not experience any drop or arcing in gravity? If these bolts were moving as slowly as you claim, they should in fact do this.

Whether they arc in gravity or not is irrelevant to the point. The point is that the glowy part of bolt moves generally move very slowly and also that they are the damaging part of the weapons discharge. Therefore, we can say that the blaster's bolt effectively is moving at that rate of the glowy part.

[Connor MacLeod]

Vash or Knives never demonstrated the ability to dodge out of the way of flying bullets either, so I fail to see what the hell relevance this has to the discussion.

Vash has demostrated on several occasions the ability to dodge a large amount of bullets from close quarters

The best example however was Ep.5 were five thugs(6?) fired everything from hand-guns to shotguns inculding a few automatics in the mix from a range no greater than 5 meters, I'll have to get a hold of it agian but just counting the bullet holes in the ground after there were between 60-80 shots fired, No of which hit him

You clearly did not read my post nor understand what the hell I was talking about (the difference between using superhuman senseory attunement to predict the gun's aimpoint versus physically having the ability to accelerate fast enough to move aside from a bullet in mid-flight.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Whether they arc in gravity or not is irrelevant to the point.

How so? Science dictates that if the bolt moves that slow (which is in fact debatable - the issue of blaster bolt velocity has come up numerous times and has been calculated before at speeds close to or exceeding bullet velocities) there would be a drop in gravity. You do not get to arbitrarily decide what and what does not apply, bucko.

The point is that the glowy part of bolt moves generally move very slowly and also that they are the damaging part of the weapons discharge. Therefore, we can say that the blaster's bolt effectively is moving at that rate of the glowy part.

This has been discussed repeatedly before as well (about how the damaging component is invisible and that the visible part itself is little more than a side effect or "Tracer" - this is supported well in canon AND official literature.) If you want to start an argument about blaster bolt velocity, go create a thread in the PSW forum and people will be more than happy to educate you.

(Besides which, this is irrelevant as the velocity of a bullet OR Blaster bolt will not factor in whatsoever as to whether someone can block or dodge bullets. Precognition is the primary factor in blocking bolts. I've explained this god knows how many times. So lets get back to the main point, shall we?)

[Connor MacLeod]

That doesn't really negate the fact that they still travel slow enough to be seen easily, just that now they defy physics as well.

You do realize making a ludicrous statement like that would likely get you flamed if someone like Darth Wong saw it, don't you? There have been NUMEROUS discussions on the issue of blaster bolt velocity, the arcing in gravity bit, etc. Simply screaming "they defy physics" doesn't work (You do recall some of us on this site do sort of try to adhere to suspension of disbelief, do you not? There is in fact a logical explanation for it. As I said, its been discussed.)

[Symmetry]

Vash or Knives never demonstrated the ability to dodge out of the way of flying bullets either, so I fail to see what the hell relevance this has to the discussion.

What!? You've never watch Trigun, have you? If you had, you'd notice that Vash has a freakishly good ability to not be hit by bullets, even when those bullets are being fired from automatic weapons by large crowds of thugs.

And its impossible for him to dodge the bullets. He can react to WHERE the guns are aimed, but dodging the bullets themselves are out. A Jedi with precognition can more than easily out-react a single person without precognition and deflect the bullet by various means (force to deflect the actual projectile, etc.)

Agreed, it was always my impressin that he noticed the clenching of the hand muscles that procede pulling th trigger, and got out of the line of the guns before it went off.

[Symmetry]

Why is it ridiculous? Regardless of whether or not the bolt is the only thing that the blaster fires, it is the part of what the blaster fires that does any damage*. For any practical purpose, the rate in which the glowy part of the bolt moves is the speed at which the bolt does damage.

UIh huh. So how do you explain the fact that the bolt does not experience any drop or arcing in gravity? If these bolts were moving as slowly as you claim, they should in fact do this.

Without understanding the mechanism by which blasters work, its pretty hard to say what they're properties with regard to drop ought to be. For instance, could they're be some sort of guiding beam? To tell the truth, the depiction of blasters in Star Wars seems to be in line with our naive intuitive ideas of how things "ought to look" rather than being based on any sort of physics, so it doesn't really seem pointful to ask why something appears not to be dropping if its only moving 20 m/s or so, rather than simply accepting that in Star Wars it does.

[Smiling Bandit]

You clearly did not read my post nor understand what the hell I was talking about (the difference between using superhuman senseory attunement to predict the gun's aimpoint versus physically having the ability to accelerate fast enough to move aside from a bullet in mid-flight.)

Quite often, he's only barely cognizant of the actual threat, so this point is rather silly. In one episode, he dodged (well, arranged for someone else to dodge) a bullet fired by a sniper. I'm taking wild guess, but that bullet should be well beyond the sound barrier. Ergo, he can dodge bullets without knowing the shooter is there and before he hears them. The most notable time he got shot he was completely distracted by acting goofy and off-balance. And he even then only took moderate damage (at least, it wasn't mortal and didn't kill him with oinly poor medical help) from two guyts at point blacnk range with AK's. Regardless, even if you are correctyou have in no way shown that this will somehow limit his ability to dodge lightsabers or blasters fired by any Jedi. Given his melee performance and the fact that he can carry two grown women and a car bench for miles across a desert... well, he's not going to tire out in this fight anytime soon.

Also, note that in episode 2 (?) Vash can recognize when the bullet is going to be fired, but doesn't dodge until the bullet is being fired.

lastly, since Conner loves to rag on me for "abandoning phsyics", I find it pretty funny that he's now simply making things up whole cloth rather than accept on-screen evidence. Make up your mind; media physics just don't always work like you think it should.

[Admiral Valdemar]

That doesn't really negate the fact that they still travel slow enough to be seen easily, just that now they defy physics as well.

You do realize making a ludicrous statement like that would likely get you flamed if someone like Darth Wong saw it, don't you? There have been NUMEROUS discussions on the issue of blaster bolt velocity, the arcing in gravity bit, etc. Simply screaming "they defy physics" doesn't work (You do recall some of us on this site do sort of try to adhere to suspension of disbelief, do you not? There is in fact a logical explanation for it. As I said, its been discussed.)

And yet they still appear to be slower than bullets, provide evidence to show me otherwise and I'll retract that view. I don't CARE about the arcing in gravity, that's not what we're discussing, it's the velocity and given the mixed nature of what blaster bolts are I'm not asking for the specifics on why they don't fall to the ground after a metre travelled.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Incidentally, Connor, how is it that you can accept Jedi pulling amazingly impossible Gees in fights yet you can't accept that, just maybe, Vash is able to dodge bullets because of a previously unknown mechanism? Vash has demonstrated this ability numerous times and it is canon. Deal.

[Typhonis 1]

don`t forget the fight with Dominique the Cyclops.

"You are aware, that during this talk, I could have groped your five times? well maybe four" after saying that her shirt burst open yet during the entire time Vash wasn`t shown to move twoards her