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Master of Ossus' explanation is as good as any and it makes sense.

But wouldn't the Imperials have been better served by using heavy armor to protect such an important station? Or is this one more example of the Emperor's arrogance leading to his defeat?

Glocksman wrote:Master of Ossus' explanation is as good as any and it makes sense.

But wouldn't the Imperials have been better served by using heavy armor to protect such an important station? Or is this one more example of the Emperor's arrogance leading to his defeat?

Nah, the AT-ST was about the most mobile thing that could fight armorwise at Endor. The were AT-ATs not quit effective aganist midgets, though..

Yes don't forget a Forest is a Very bad place for a High-Tech Armory, Notice how even the Small AT-STs have trouble moving through the forest, Consider how much the massive AT-AT would have faced(And notice its distintic absance from the battle) prehaps because it simply could not get over there in time having to blast through massive trees, 1-6 Meters apart

Maybe the Empire should have hired Hammer's Slammers to work on Endor.



A 170 ton iridium armored fusion powered hovertank would have ruined the Ewoks' whole day.

Keep in mind the Imperal Army was no where to be seen

Those where the Emperors personal Loyal Troopers(Not nessarly the best mind you....)

'an entire legion of my best troops awaits them'

course, that could just be the emperor trying to intimidate luke.

Enforcer Talen wrote:'an entire legion of my best troops awaits them'

course, that could just be the emperor trying to intimidate luke.

Yeah, and Legion/Division are only 9,700 troops, though they were only 800to2500 troops in the Novelization I think.

Glocksman wrote:Master of Ossus' explanation is as good as any and it makes sense.

But wouldn't the Imperials have been better served by using heavy armor to protect such an important station? Or is this one more example of the Emperor's arrogance leading to his defeat?

There was an AT-AT walker on Endor, that dropped off Luke at the Command Bunker for Lord Vader to pick him up and take him to the DSII. The CCG appropriately names it "Forest 1," but since there is no other designation available, that is as good as any. Forest 1 was having extreme difficulties in moving through the thick trees (which is also a good indication of the tree's strength--that they could prevent an AT-AT from running them over), and could not actually get to the secret entrance. Its movement was highly restricted, and it could not even really leave the immediate area around the front of the bunker. It was probably not destroyed by the Battle itself, but either abandoned or destroyed or captured later when additional Rebel forces from the orbital fleet were able to move down and reinforce the Strike Team.

In any case, Forest 1 was unavailable to assist in the actual combat around the main Bunker that we saw because it of its limited mobility. It also, probably, would have been less effective against the Ewoks, anyway, than a similarly massed number of AT-STs, as you really don't need anywhere near that kind of firepower to roast some Ewoks, so it would essentially be overkill.

Commander LeoRo wrote:Some of you guys are so pathetic. You are trying to come up with some sort of excuse to cover the Empire's pathetic attempt to defeat the Ewoks on the ground. If the Stormtroopers' armor could not defeat rocks and other primitive melee weapons how can you expect them to defeat any competent military? The only reason why they were able to defeat the rebels in any ground engagement was because they had superior numbers. Furthermore, if *one* AT-ST that fell into the Rebels hands was all that it took to win the battle, the Empire is absolutely screwed if they ever have to face a military force with even decent armor capabilities. The fact is that the Stormtroopers have never proven themselves to be the awesome soldiers that many of you would like to believe. The US Army vs. Vietcong/NVA is a poor example because the United States never lost a pitched battle with them. We lost the war due to other factors, but we always won the battles. That is hardly the record of the Stormtroopers. One of the reasons the US won all of those battles is because of some decent tactics and strategy. That is something the Empire sorely lacks...

::Puts in Aerosmith's Eat the Rich and recalls some lines from Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back::

You're the ones who are the ball lickers!!!
I am pathetic. I embrace Star Wars, you shit on it like Darkstar. Pathetic attempt? Reas my post again. The Empire was handing EVERYONE thier ASSES until this moment. Even after this the Empire was still kicking the bejesus out of the Rebels. The Stormtroopers armor was not defeated. Rocks were dropped on thier head, and fat ass teddy bears were jumping on them. Even in the midst of being hammerd, Stormtroopers phisically threw them into the damn weeds. Remember, ONE AT-ST fell into Rebel hands and defeated two scout walkers. One AT-ST was tripped on a slew of logs. ONE AT ST was bashed by two logs that are actually bigger than my DICK on a ho run. By the way, the taking of Tantive IV. The taking of Echo Base. It doesn't matter! THE EMPIRE FUCKING HANDED THEIR PERVERBIAL ASS TO THIER ENEMIES. Just as I have done to you.

LeoRo, you do, of course, realize that a soldier wearing stormtrooper armor (or, any other kind of armor, for that matter) can be killed even if the armor does not fail, don't you? You also realize that the white armor plates worn by stormtroopers never once failed in all of RotJ, don't you?

Glocksman wrote:There's something I have wondered about ever since I first saw ROTJ.

And that would be just how a couple of logs swinging from a tree could smash in the sides of an armored combat vehicle??

It's actually worse than that.

The AT-ST implodes before the logs even hit it. Watch it frame by frame.

A good gust of wind is enough to destroy an AT-ST

Anyway, carry on.

Based on DG_Cal_Wright's post I can guess that he is about as intelligent as a Gamorrean guard. Master of Ossus's post was certainly more informative. I do have to disagree with the assertion the Stormtroopers' armor never failed. Their armor did not protect them from blaster bolts once in any of the movies. The only reason for wearing full body armor if it doesn't protect from energy attacks is for NBC attacks. The Empire never once used chemical or biological agents. It would appear that the stormtrooper armor was more of a burden than anything. If their armor did not protect them from kinetic attacks (rocks etc...) then it is particulary useless. Even a modern kevlar helmet can protect a soldier from a glancing bullet and shrapnel.

The only reason for wearing full body armor if it doesn't protect from energy attacks is for NBC attacks. The Empire never once used chemical or biological agents. It would appear that the stormtrooper armor was more of a burden than anything. If their armor did not protect them from kinetic attacks (rocks etc...) then it is particulary useless. Even a modern kevlar helmet can protect a soldier from a glancing bullet and shrapnel

I theory grows more and more likley each day but anyway tell me would you like to go grap say a WWII era helmet or a Modern day Kevlar Helmet and I come wap you over the head with a base-ball bat

After you've come to tell me if you'd think that modern armor is also useless aginst some forms of KE attacks


Furthmore they DO protect them aginst blaster hits just not perfeclly, The Black Body-wear areas are where 80% of the movies "kill shots" occure and we do see quite a bit of Shrapnal being deflected consider the Giant Gap thing in the DS ANH where Leia and Luke Blast at the Stormys up top and they barley flinch from missed shots that hit around them. Considering the E-11 is slight more powerful than Han's Blaster which of course blows craters in the walls of the Hanger thats say somthing

Commander LeoRo wrote:Based on DG_Cal_Wright's post I can guess that he is about as intelligent as a Gamorrean guard. Master of Ossus's post was certainly more informative. I do have to disagree with the assertion the Stormtroopers' armor never failed. Their armor did not protect them from blaster bolts once in any of the movies. The only reason for wearing full body armor if it doesn't protect from energy attacks is for NBC attacks. The Empire never once used chemical or biological agents. It would appear that the stormtrooper armor was more of a burden than anything. If their armor did not protect them from kinetic attacks (rocks etc...) then it is particulary useless. Even a modern kevlar helmet can protect a soldier from a glancing bullet and shrapnel.

Good job, insulting someone else again you Cracker... Blaster Bolts aren't sharpnel or steel they are lasers, which the level of power of Star Wars can easily penetrate anything Earth has to offer, but nothing that thin could protect aganist a laser, only something thicker far too bulky and their is no evidence that they can't survive glancing laser strikes, never did their amor fail in Melee combat well misu a lightsaber, but another story...

You can definatly beat some one to death in armor with out leaving a bruse. Thats the idea of blanket parties, They dont leave bruses.

Okay, think of it this way. Even if the armor does not fail at all, the wearer can still be killed by a KE impact. That is what is seen in RotJ. Note that EVERY time a stormtrooper acts like he has been injured by an Ewok attack, he was hit on the head with something. The head in humans is a VERY weak point. Not only are our necks highly vulnerable to damage, but our noses can be broken and we can be knocked unconscious if hit with sufficient force on the head. Stormtrooper armor (or, really, any kind of armor) cannot possibly grant a person complete protection from such an attack. At best, it can spread the impact out. But even if the armor does not fail at all, which is what we see in RotJ, the person wearing it can still be injured. Armor does not allow us to violate the law of conservation of momentum.

Here are some other reasons why they should wear such armor:

1. It enhances their ability to spot things, target things, and give orders. All of these benefits are granted by their helmets.
2. It protects them against NBC attacks and even grants some protection against hard vacuum.
3. It is climate controlled, as demonstrated by the soldiers wearing the armor on Tatooine. Its climate control abilities are limited, but provide excellent protection from the elements in most habitable planets and areas.
4. It grants some protection against blaster fire, albeit not nearly complete protection.
5. It grants huge protection benefits against shrapnel. In modern combat, the vast majority of combat casualties are not caused by bullets but by the shrapnel that they generate. By requiring enemy soldiers to score direct hits on stormtroopers, the armor that they wear has already given them an ENORMOUS advantage in combat. Just look at how quickly the troops on Tantive IV were killed. They had no such protection, and shrapnel shredded them very quickly.
6. It provides some protection against many of the psychological problems of war. Stormtroopers in combat never have to see the faces of their dead friends. This helps maintain their discipline, which is incredibly good for whatever reason, but this might be a factor involved.
7. The armor allows them to move very quickly from different environments and become effective combat troops far more easily than most units.
8. The armor protects the stormtroopers very well when they are policing the populace, and it grants them a considerable advantage in intimidating crowds or people.

Master of Ossus,

I won't argue about the good sense that it makes to wear armor that is effective at what it is supposed to do. Your explanation of the Stormtrooper armor is a good one. Aside from looking cool, Stormtrooper armos does provide some protection. Armor is even used but modern armies, not like we see in Star Wars though. No matter how much protection your soldiers have though, that can't make up for inadequate tactics. It is a difficult position to argue that the Stormtroopers were the prime example of a first rate fighting force in ROTJ. Stormtroopers were good soldiers throughout the OT, except in ROTJ. Basically, GL neutered the Stormtroopers in ROTJ. Like many people feel, I also find the Ewoks to be the worst creation of George Lucas. Not even the Gungans were as bad.

If we want to look at ROTJ objectively, without GL's intentions for Star Wars being taken into account, I believe the Stormtroopers could have won if they had the right equipment and used the right tactics. If you are interested in discussing that let me know.

used *by* modern armies. Is what the sentence should say.

No, I'm not interested in a debate about opinions, right now. I think I might be called on pretty soon to go after DumbShit, again, so I don't want to put anything else on my plate at the moment.

Anyway, I can agree with most of what you said, and I can DEFINITELY see where you are coming from in everything else. I think the Gungans are worse, but perhaps we should start a thread to find out.

In any case, I really don't see that we disagree about much else, so unless you have something else to say, I think I'll sign off for the moment and go out to dinner.

I'll have to responed Leroy that tradtionaly Stormys seemed to be Armored and Outfited for combat in Urban Areas and aboard ships

Not in Jungle Primieval

heres an idea, maybe the stormtroopers wear armor to protect them from nbc attack from the rebels because they are all clones and at one point the rebels tried to create a virus to cripple the massive st numbers because the engineered the virus to attack only one person the clone host and his clones. Just an idea not to mention the armor protects against glancing blaster bolt probabley schrapnel from grenades and direct hand to hand combat.

just a thought i know its out there isnt it.

one more thing the imperial forces on endor were beating the shit out of the rebels and their stupid ass ewok buddies.

Another fact everyone seems to be forgetting is that it wasn't Ewoks & Heros vs Storimes.

It was Ewoks, Heros and the Rebel equivlent to the Navy Seals vs Stormies.

That goes quite a ways towards equalizing the odds.

those rebel special forces must have been gods then. For they were expected to destroy the shields by themselves. A better job could have been done. I always thought the ewok thing was rather cheesey to much a little kid thing. Sort of like Jar Jar in episode I

If you liked the ewok thing and the good guys always win motto then you must love Jar Jar

AL wrote:those rebel special forces must have been gods then. For they were expected to destroy the shields by themselves. A better job could have been done. I always thought the ewok thing was rather cheesey to much a little kid thing. Sort of like Jar Jar in episode I

If you liked the ewok thing and the good guys always win motto then you must love Jar Jar

Dear God I hope that means that every one who hated TPH realy do like the side that rocks.