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The Romulan Republic wrote:Interesting that some of the ships, which seem to be fighting side by side, are blue-painted while others are red.

Possibly some are NR ships and others are independent Resistance ships?

Come to think of it, weren't the Resistance fighters painted blue in TFA? While the Republic/Rebellion has traditionally used more of a red colour scheme?

Rebel ships were an assortment of colors. I think the red scheme was just the most prominent because it was the color of the hero's fighter.

I wonder what the deal is with Luke, of all people, saying that the Jedi should end. That, again, initially strikes me as a betrayal of the OT, but it depends on what Luke's reasons are, and what would come after the Jedi.

Or it could simply be a temporary loss of faith. Its pretty clear that Ren's fall and the slaughter of his students was absolutely devastating to Luke. I suspect his self-imposed exile was in no small part due to doubting his own ability as a leader and Jedi after that disaster.

Maybe he found the original teaching of the whills and discovered that the dogma of the Jedi was wrong.

It's entirely possible that Rey has to redeem Luke. Not so much from the dark side, but from despair.

Galvatron wrote:It's entirely possible that Rey has to redeem Luke. Not so much from the dark side, but from despair.

good point.

Daisy Ridley has already said that Luke turns out to be different than what Rey expected. She was probably expecting a "great warrior," not a sad old man.

Anacronian wrote:Maybe he found the original teaching of the whills and discovered that the dogma of the Jedi was wrong.

See, this is what I'm worried about: Revisionism that tries to do a "clever" retcon so that the Jedi are actually the bad guys or something. Which honestly reminds me too much of the controversy around Karen Travis's writing, back in the day.

Also, I would ask: "Which Jedi dogma"? The late Old Republic Jedi? Luke already rejected that when he chose love for his father over coldly cutting Vader down. But the Jedi philosophy presumably changed somewhat over time (and did in the old EU).

Luke: "Breathe. Just breathe. Now, reach out. What do you see?"

Rey: "Light. Darkness. The balance."

Luke: "It's so much bigger."

I think perhaps it's more about Luke discovering that there's a lot more to the Force than either the Jedi or the Sith of his era believed.

Well it looks...interesting. Lots of possibilities, and it seems poor Poe isn't having any better luck when it comes to ships in this film than he did before.

Incidentally, "Last Jedi First Trailer" as a thread title makes it sound like some Chinese martial arts film

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Anacronian wrote:Maybe he found the original teaching of the whills and discovered that the dogma of the Jedi was wrong.

See, this is what I'm worried about: Revisionism that tries to do a "clever" retcon so that the Jedi are actually the bad guys or something. Which honestly reminds me too much of the controversy around Karen Travis's writing, back in the day.

Also, I would ask: "Which Jedi dogma"? The late Old Republic Jedi? Luke already rejected that when he chose love for his father over coldly cutting Vader down. But the Jedi philosophy presumably changed somewhat over time (and did in the old EU).

But you say it yourself - If the Jedi philosophy has changed over time then it could very well have changed into something wrong - This would not make them the "bad guys" by the way, Just wrong.

And I think the prequels pretty much showed that the Jedi was wrong about a great many things, Even Yoda remarks on it not to mention they actually had a prophecy telling them that the chosen one would bring balance to the force - which would indicate that the force needed balancing.

If it is revisionism then it started way back in 1999.

The late Old Republic Jedi made some very, very bad choices, yes (although the extent of their failings is sometimes exaggerated/distorted by agenda-driven fans, I think).

However, that's not really "revisionism" of the OT to me, because we saw some of those same failings in Obi-wan and Yoda's attitudes and deception of Luke in the OT.

What I worry about is that people take those legitimate criticisms of a particular period of the Jedi Order and use that as a basis for overly broad conclusions.

Moreover, if that's all that's being referred to in the new trailer, then its pointless. Their's no need for Luke to have some revelation about how the Old Republic Jedi failed, because he already rejected their philosophy in sparing Vader in RotJ. And he did it without rejecting his identity as a Jedi. He simply chose to reinvent what being a Jedi meant.

I would presume that when Luke tried to start the Jedi order again with Ben and the rest of the pupils he did so by trying to impart Jedi teachings to them and that went all to hell (though we know very little of this time).

So 2 times now has Luke seen the failings of the Jedi - once with his father and once while trying to teach, That could be what make him conclude the teachings are wrong.

Frankly, having Luke revert to the old "no attachment" bull shit when training his students would be a special level of stupid in and of itself, as it would fly right in the face of RotJ's ending. That's not to say Luke couldn't have fucked up in some other way, though. And even if he was blameless, the fact that such a disaster happened under his watch might make him question a lot of things.

Their is actually, weather by accident or design, a very clear progression in the Jedi philosophy from Phantom Menace to Return of the Jedi, which I've discussed before.

We begin with a Jedi Order that (ironically) stifles normal emotion out of fear of the Dark Side. This arguably leaves them unable to address Anakin's problems, and contributes to their fall.

However, we see that by Revenge of the Sith, Yoda seems to be beginning to reconsider this, as show by his decision to allow Luke and Leia to be raised by families.

This reaches its conclusion in Luke (who has grown up with ideas of family attachment) refusing to kill his father in RotJ- the decision which ultimately leads to Vader's redemption and the fall of the Sith. Though he did this without rejecting either the Light/Dark dichotomy or his role as a Jedi.

That development of the Jedi philosophy is something I'm quite fond of, it is very central to the franchise's main story, it is the key to why Luke is probably my favourite Star Wars character and RotJ's ending one of my favourite in cinema, and I don't want to see it thrown out in some half-assed attempt to be "darker" or "more ambiguous" or create a clever twist what have you.

Star Wars is, ultimately, built around a fairly straightforward morality of good vs. evil, though within that frame work it has more nuance than a lot of people give it credit for, I think (most notably in Vader's fall and redemption, and in subverting the usual action movie ending of "hero fights villain, hero wins" by having Luke's victory come through saving the villain rather than defeating/killing him). That's not a bad thing. Their are other franchises that cater to different philosophical view points. Star Wars doesn't need to change the core of its themes and narrative.

Alright, I need to understand your arguments here.

You say Luke already discovered that the Jedi teachings were wrong in his duel with Vader and therefore it is revisionist that Luke tells his new student that the Jedi must end, Even though he by your own argument has discovered that the teachings are wrong?

Am I getting this right?

Anacronian wrote:Alright, I need to understand your arguments here.

You say Luke already discovered that the Jedi teachings were wrong in his duel with Vader and therefore it is revisionist that Luke tells his new student that the Jedi must end, Even though he by your own argument has discovered that the teachings are wrong?

Am I getting this right?

From your tone, I suspect that this is meant as mockery rather than a serious question, but since you clearly don't see what I'm getting at in either case, I'll try to explain it again.

The Jedi Order evolved over time. The late Old Republic Jedi were wrong on certain points, but it does not therefore follow that "the Jedi were wrong", end of story. That is an overly broad conclusion. That the Jedi should cease to exist does not follow from the Old Republic Jedi being wrong about attachment, for example. Their is a big gap between "These specific Jedi teachings are wrong" and "The Jedi Order is so utterly broken that it must cease to exist."

Luke (knowingly or otherwise) rejected the "no attachment" aspect of Old Republic Jedi teachings by sparing Vader. In doing so, however, he conspicuously did not reject being a Jedi. In fact, one of the very next things he says is "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." The progression throughout the first two trilogies is one of the Jedi Order evolving, and thereby finding redemption. Not a repudiation of the Jedi. That is part of what I'm worried the ST filmmakers don't get.

Your argument is like... I don't know. Saying Protestants aren't real Christians because they rejected Catholicism, to use a real world comparison. And I know some people would probably say that, but most wouldn't.

Edit: Also, because I missed it before- "bringing balance to the Force" in the PT pretty clearly did not mean "the Light and Dark Side should be equal", which is how a lot of fans have insisted on "interpreting" it. As I recall, Lucas basically stated that the Dark Side was meant to be an imbalance, and while I stand by what I said about Lucas's behind the scenes comments not meaning much, the depiction in the films overall mostly bears that out. What contradictions exist mostly originated in EU material.

You can like that depiction or not, but that's my honest assessment of the intent of the prior films. And I can't say I care for clumsy retcons to try to make the existing cannon conform to the writer's personal views. Even when I agree with said views.

The dualism gets repeated throughout the series. Look at Obi Wan in TPM where he made the condescending remark about how they were about to help another pathetic lifeform with Jar Jar on Naboo. By ROTS, and most notably throughout the Clone Wars series, he actually cares about trivial things and people. He is still aloof about it, but cares and has imparted that to his pupil. Even by Rebels with Maul in the desert and then on to ANH, Obi Wan has changed dramatically by events and his views of the Force.

I too worry a bit about a retcon to the Jedi Order by some in the fan base. The Jedi were not wrong or bad or a detrimental thing. They weren't even corrupt in the way you usually think about it in a Trump using the government to make himself rich type corrupt. If they were corrupt they were in a way that they just lost track of their purpose. A follow the letter of the law type rather than the spirit of the law thing.

The Republic was corrupt and broken, and the Jedi had slaved themselves to the Republic, so in that sense they were corrupt and broken. But the Order itself and the Jedi in it did good and maintained peace. Their biggest crime, I guess, was arrogance. Arrogance in thinking they were both unmatched and that serving the Republic was the same as serving the people or serving good.

What I'm thinking right now is that Luke saying its time for the Jedi to end might come near the beginning of the movie, with Luke initially refusing to train Rey, like Yoda refused to train Luke. We do see Luke training Rey, so maybe she convinces Luke to give the Jedi another chance.

Reyvan wrote:What I'm thinking right now is that Luke saying its time for the Jedi to end might come near the beginning of the movie, with Luke initially refusing to train Rey, like Yoda refused to train Luke. We do see Luke training Rey, so maybe she convinces Luke to give the Jedi another chance.

That's kinda what I was thinking when I said Rey would have to redeem Luke from despair.

Well, it'll certainly create a lot of speculation. The title, and what dialog we get, can be interpreted in a lot of different ways.

It could be something as simple as Luke having a crisis of faith.

Galvatron wrote:

Reyvan wrote:What I'm thinking right now is that Luke saying its time for the Jedi to end might come near the beginning of the movie, with Luke initially refusing to train Rey, like Yoda refused to train Luke. We do see Luke training Rey, so maybe she convinces Luke to give the Jedi another chance.

That's kinda what I was thinking when I said Rey would have to redeem Luke from despair.

Galvatron wrote:It could be something as simple as Luke having a crisis of faith.

This was my thought as well: from Luke's perspective it even makes a certain degree of sense. Within a span only slightly greater than his own life, one or more of the Jedi have given in to the Dark Side and brought about a purge and galactic-level chaos. If he has found the original records of the Jedi, then maybe they include similar events in the past (as in the old EU) where Jedi turn to the Dark and cause death and chaos.

The fact that both times we see in the films were caused by members of his own family probably has him questioning whether a Skywalker can ever be trusted to lead or teach Jedi. The fact that this scene is at the end of the trailer means jack diddly squat about where it comes in the film (hell, it might be one of, if not the first scene) and also says nothing about his mental state - he's been totally alone for years if not decades which probably doesn't help his mental state.

I think, perhaps, we should hold off on speculation and/or accusations of"revisionism" until we've actually seen the film or at least the second trailer.

Oh, it makes sense from Luke's perspective that he would feel that way, no doubt.

Its just a question of how the film interprets/presents it. I can see the potential for it to go very, very badly, especially if they've been listening to certain elements of the fan base, but that's only one possibility.

Let's not forget that he also may have felt the mass death that occurred with the destruction of the Hosnian system. That must have felt like a real gut punch, especially if he was already wallowing in misery.

I do hope that Luke has done more with his life than sit in a cave brooding for many years. It might be an understandable reaction to such a catastrophic failure, but it would also be a selfish and cowardly one- especially if Rey turns out to be his child, as it would mean that he abandoned her.

I'd prefer it if he spent that time, as has been speculated, looking into the origins of the Jedi and Sith, to try to figure out how to prevent such failures in the future, even if the conclusion he reached turns out to be the wrong one. Because at least he wouldn't have been sitting on his ass while the galaxy fell apart and his friends died.

I guess it all depends on when he sought out Lor San Tekka for help in locating the temple.

Also, Snoke remains a complete mystery and a wild card. Maybe he told Luke some things that he didn't like hearing.