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WATCH-MAN wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:As for Voyager it's less the age and more the role and prestige that determine who gets what in navies, sure the Intrepid is alot newer then an Excelsior class but at the same time the Intrepid seems more specialized to a specific role and isn't that large to begin with. Then we should remember that Janeway's dad was an admiral so he might have pulled some strings to get his daughter the best possible assignment.

That may be.

But it does not change the fact that it - as far as I know - and I admit that I can err - was never stated on screen that Voyager was Janeway's first command.

Nor was it stated that her father pulled some strings to get his daughter the best possible assignment - especially as this argumentation is contradictory as you first argued that the USS Voyager was not a prestigious ship.

notice the wording I used, I said best possible, not top of the line showcase class that only few captains even get into shortlist to captain. You seem to think that the prestige of an assignment is an on/off situation.

I'm not saying USS Voyager was a shitty assignment, as it certainly had certain tech not yet implimented into other starships however IIRC Voyager had a standard crew compliment of about 300-400 crewmembers and doesn't seem to have any major civilian compliment compared to the 1000 crewmembers of a Galaxy (with a signifigant civilian compliment including children) thus an Intrepid-class wouldn't need as experienced captain as a galaxy, also it's somewhat implied that the Intrepid-class was specialized for scientific missions(though not as heavily as the Obreth-class) while the galaxy was more of a jack-of-all-traits.

Well we do see in "Relativity" that she's very chummy with a certain Admiral, who I think mentions he was friends with her father, also an Admiral, so the idea of her being well-connected has some basis in fact.

Also, IIRC, the guy says that Voyager "Isn't as big as a Galaxy class, but she's quick and she's smart" and she was also among the earliest of the class, so it will have carried some prestige from that alone.

And fnially, I thought Voyager only has a compliment of ~150 or so?

Eternal_Freedom wrote:And fnially, I thought Voyager only has a compliment of ~150 or so?

could be I only remember that it was signifigantly lower then that of the Galaxy-class

It does have a crew of 150. (approximately. Voyager's stated crew number was always in this general area but bounced around a bit.) I also don't know where he's getting the science orientated thing. I think you might be stating a lot of fan theories/inferences as fact there Revan.

Still the Intrepid is a small but modern design I can see it being a very desirable command especially for a less experienced Captain (if Janeway was one, which I don't recall being said either) It's certainly a cut above something like a cargo hauling version of the Miranda with a crew of 26 like the Lantree for example.

Lord Revan wrote:IIRC Voyager had a standard crew compliment of about 300-400 crewmembers

147

well that's how many they had toward the end of the show. I'm not sure how many an Intrepid class would normally have. It can't have been 300-400 though, surely?

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:IIRC Voyager had a standard crew compliment of about 300-400 crewmembers

147

well that's how many they had toward the end of the show. I'm not sure how many an Intrepid class would normally have. It can't have been 300-400 though, surely?

And is that active crew? How many did they have in deep-freeze?

According to Memory Alpha it had a crew of 141 as of 'Caretaker' and why 'can't' it have a crew of 300-to 400? The ship's bigger than a Constitution.

Crazedwraith wrote:It does have a crew of 150. (approximately. Voyager's stated crew number was always in this general area but bounced around a bit.) I also don't know where he's getting the science orientated thing. I think you might be stating a lot of fan theories/inferences as fact there Revan.

Still the Intrepid is a small but modern design I can see it being a very desirable command especially for a less experienced Captain (if Janeway was one, which I don't recall being said either) It's certainly a cut above something like a cargo hauling version of the Miranda with a crew of 26 like the Lantree for example.

yeah it's never been outright stated what the normal role of the Intrepid-class is. However Voyager seemed to lack the diplomatic facilities the Galaxy has (though the only we saw another Intrepid besides Voyager was as VIP-transport) and seeing that Starfleet doesn't regulary make warships, a somewhat specializied science vessel seemed like the logical clasification. That said the Intrepid certainly has some degree of general purpose use and isn't fully specialized to single role like the Obreth or Defiant classes are.

Well we know that the Nova class was intended for short-range scientific missions, maybe the Intrepids were built for those five year long-range exploration missions. It would explain why she had such a high top speed and crusing speed compared to other classes.

Batman wrote:According to Memory Alpha it had a crew of 141 as of 'Caretaker' and why 'can't' it have a crew of 300-to 400? The ship's bigger than a Constitution.

Well it just seems ... a lot. After caretaker and the first episode, there didn't seem to be any crew shortages in Engineering or Ops or the sciences. Or anyone actually doing anything other than the main characters heh. Maybe sickbay actually, but other than that, the ship always seemed "full"... wasn't there a time people had to double up their rooms because they had to cut power to half the ship or something?


I'm sure you could physically fit 400 people in an Intrepid class just fine, but I don't think it was designed that way.

140 ish seemed just fine, near as I could tell.

Lord Revan wrote: yeah it's never been outright stated what the normal role of the Intrepid-class is.

Tom Paris tells Harry that it's a fast assault ship in one episode. For the life of me I can't remember which one. They're in one of their quarters, Harry's I think. There may or may not have been a saxaphone at some point (harry played that in one episode and clarinet in others). That's all I remember of it.

Voyager also seemed fairly heavily armed, for a ship of its size. It seemed to be able to pack a punch similar to that of a GCS. It had more modern torpedoes (class 6 opposed to class 5) and unless it was someone really advanced, their weapons always seemed to work just fine. Had a fairly rapid torpedo launch facility as well I think - 6 torps in 2 seconds or something.


EDIT: oh, in trying to find a photon torpedo clip, I came across this:

https://youtu.be/xHszpVnGwyw?t=1m4s

"This ship was built for combat performance, Harry"

That was the scene I was thinking of. Still no clue the episode.

Anyway, yeah it's armaments don't scream "science vessel" to me.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Batman wrote:According to Memory Alpha it had a crew of 141 as of 'Caretaker' and why 'can't' it have a crew of 300-to 400? The ship's bigger than a Constitution.

Well it just seems ... a lot. After caretaker and the first episode, there didn't seem to be any crew shortages in Engineering or Ops or the sciences. Or anyone actually doing anything other than the main characters heh. Maybe sickbay actually, but other than that, the ship always seemed "full"... wasn't there a time people had to double up their rooms because they had to cut power to half the ship or something?
I'm sure you could physically fit 400 people in an Intrepid class just fine, but I don't think it was designed that way.
140 ish seemed just fine, near as I could tell.

That ship has easily twice if not more the volume of a current day CVN which routinely house more than 5,000 people.

Batman wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Batman wrote:According to Memory Alpha it had a crew of 141 as of 'Caretaker' and why 'can't' it have a crew of 300-to 400? The ship's bigger than a Constitution.

Well it just seems ... a lot. After caretaker and the first episode, there didn't seem to be any crew shortages in Engineering or Ops or the sciences. Or anyone actually doing anything other than the main characters heh. Maybe sickbay actually, but other than that, the ship always seemed "full"... wasn't there a time people had to double up their rooms because they had to cut power to half the ship or something?
I'm sure you could physically fit 400 people in an Intrepid class just fine, but I don't think it was designed that way.
140 ish seemed just fine, near as I could tell.

That ship has easily twice if not more the volume of a current day CVN which routinely house more than 5,000 people.

in bunks.

On Voyager they have quarters 3 times bigger than my flat.

The Intrepid also doesn't suffer from a third of the ship being hangar deck. And seriously, the Constitution (which is also smaller than the Intrepid) had a crew of 400+ and crew quarters far more spacious than modern military ships. Do you have a problem with that too?

The explanation that makes the most sense (to me) is that a lot of seemingly compact technology actually has a huge unseen back-end tucked behind those beige wall panels. Kind of like how my cell phone accesses a huge network of signal towers, servers, etc. Possibly the technology became even more bulky since TOS due to feature creep even as it became more efficient.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Lord Revan wrote: yeah it's never been outright stated what the normal role of the Intrepid-class is.

Tom Paris tells Harry that it's a fast assault ship in one episode. For the life of me I can't remember which one. They're in one of their quarters, Harry's I think. There may or may not have been a saxaphone at some point (harry played that in one episode and clarinet in others). That's all I remember of it.

Voyager also seemed fairly heavily armed, for a ship of its size. It seemed to be able to pack a punch similar to that of a GCS. It had more modern torpedoes (class 6 opposed to class 5) and unless it was someone really advanced, their weapons always seemed to work just fine. Had a fairly rapid torpedo launch facility as well I think - 6 torps in 2 seconds or something.


EDIT: oh, in trying to find a photon torpedo clip, I came across this:

https://youtu.be/xHszpVnGwyw?t=1m4s

"This ship was built for combat performance, Harry"

That was the scene I was thinking of. Still no clue the episode.

Anyway, yeah it's armaments don't scream "science vessel" to me.

The thing is that you had to have the Borg threat for the Starfleet to even think of designing and building a dedicated warship, the Defiant-class to be exact and it was constantly emphasized that the Defiant was special. The idea that the Intrepid was designed and built as a warship doesn't seem right with that (and it was a pre-dominion war design as well) so science ship seems like the next logical step (or Explorer if you want to be specific).

I how picture is that a Galaxy or Sovereign class would do the initial mapping of a system possibly making contact with any locals, then you'd send an Intrepid to do a more detailed study and if that finds anything worth studing in even more detail you'd send a Nova or Obreth to study that specific item.

woah woah, he didn't say warship, he said combat performance

Batman wrote:The Intrepid also doesn't suffer from a third of the ship being hangar deck. And seriously, the Constitution (which is also smaller than the Intrepid) had a crew of 400+ and crew quarters far more spacious than modern military ships. Do you have a problem with that too?

:thoughtful: ... no, not really. But if it was anything like an Excelsior (which had up to 6-12 people in a room on bunks) they used to cram them in those older ships.

Voyager with 140-150 crew never seemed short handed.


Who knows. Hell you can run those ships with 1-2 people for a while. I dunno... I guess the writers never really thought about it. I don't think Janeway lost 200 people in Caretaker, though? Did she not go out with a full crew compliment first time?

Prometheus Unbound wrote:woah woah, he didn't say warship, he said combat performance

yeah but if Intrepid's primary role was combat it would be warship which would make atypical for a starfleet ship. So if not combat what would the Intrepid's primary role be and a specialized explorer ship makes sense, specially when you consider IIRC it was said that Janeway was a science officer before switching to the command branch.

Lord Revan wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:woah woah, he didn't say warship, he said combat performance

yeah but if Intrepid's primary role was combat it would be warship which would make atypical for a starfleet ship. So if not combat what would the Intrepid's primary role be and a specialized explorer ship makes sense, specially when you consider IIRC it was said that Janeway was a science officer before switching to the command branch.

Patrol vessel, fast response?

The Akira and others similar around STFC are part of the same generation - Akira seems to be pretty combat orientated?


I don't think it's a warship like the Defiant class but it's ... well, it's not a poorly armed or defended ship by any stretch.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:woah woah, he didn't say warship, he said combat performance

yeah but if Intrepid's primary role was combat it would be warship which would make atypical for a starfleet ship. So if not combat what would the Intrepid's primary role be and a specialized explorer ship makes sense, specially when you consider IIRC it was said that Janeway was a science officer before switching to the command branch.

Patrol vessel, fast response?

The Akira and others similar around STFC are part of the same generation - Akira seems to be pretty combat orientated?


I don't think it's a warship like the Defiant class but it's ... well, it's not a poorly armed or defended ship by any stretch.

I'm not claiming that Intrepids were poor armed but rather that Starfleet is rather anal when it comes to classifying ships and a patrol ship is very much a combat rule, after all if you'd really want to honestly classify the Galaxy class it would a heavy cruiser or a battleship depending on how it compared to ships from the other powers.

Also I think the Akira might be "multi-role" assuming the pod that gives ship bulk of its firepower can swapped like the pod in the Nebula-class, the Sovereign is multi-role as well (it's the class that Enterprise-E belongs to after all) and we don't see enough of the Norway and Saber classes to say anything.

the Intrepid is post wolf-359 design so obviously it would be more combat oriented as that event kind of woke the federation from their compency after all for all peaceful diplomatic skills and enlightment the Starfleet was unable to prevent the borg from attacking the very heart of the Federation. The intrepid belongs to the same design generation as the Defiant after all the ship that has absolutely no other role the to be a pair guns strapped to warpdrive.

Lord Revan wrote: I'm not claiming that Intrepids were poor armed but rather that Starfleet is rather anal when it comes to classifying ships and a patrol ship is very much a combat rule, after all if you'd really want to honestly classify the Galaxy class it would a heavy cruiser or a battleship depending on how it compared to ships from the other powers.

Also I think the Akira might be "multi-role" assuming the pod that gives ship bulk of its firepower can swapped like the pod in the Nebula-class, the Sovereign is multi-role as well (it's the class that Enterprise-E belongs to after all) and we don't see enough of the Norway and Saber classes to say anything.

the Intrepid is post wolf-359 design so obviously it would be more combat oriented as that event kind of woke the federation from their compency after all for all peaceful diplomatic skills and enlightment the Starfleet was unable to prevent the borg from attacking the very heart of the Federation. The intrepid belongs to the same design generation as the Defiant after all the ship that has absolutely no other role the to be a pair guns strapped to warpdrive.

I think people may be over reading what appears to be a glib remark about someone's room having poor acoustics. I mean after all even if the ship were to carry no offensive weapons the Starfleet designers would still surely consider how it would take weapons fire and design rooms so if they suffered a hull breach in the crew quarters it wouldn't mean losing the ship?

If Picard took over the Academy and as a result the Borg were not encountered at J-25, how would that have impacted starship design? Or tech development? Or production?

How would that have impacted Starfleet's effectiveness? On the one hand, a lot of technology and ship designs were only put onto the drawing board because of the Borg threat. On the other hand, the losses due to Wolf 359 were severe enough that its impact seemed to last throughout the rest of TNG, and the losses from STFC only added to that. If those losses had not occurred, that's quite a few starships that would have been around for other events.

Tribble wrote:If Picard took over the Academy and as a result the Borg were not encountered at J-25, how would that have impacted starship design? Or tech development? Or production?

How would that have impacted Starfleet's effectiveness? On the one hand, a lot of technology and ship designs were only put onto the drawing board because of the Borg threat. On the other hand, the losses due to Wolf 359 were severe enough that its impact seemed to last throughout the rest of TNG, and the losses from STFC only added to that. If those losses had not occurred, that's quite a few starships that would have been around for other events.

But then no ships lost to the Klingons or Dominion...

Tribble wrote:If Picard took over the Academy and as a result the Borg were not encountered at J-25, how would that have impacted starship design? Or tech development? Or production?

How would that have impacted Starfleet's effectiveness? On the one hand, a lot of technology and ship designs were only put onto the drawing board because of the Borg threat. On the other hand, the losses due to Wolf 359 were severe enough that its impact seemed to last throughout the rest of TNG, and the losses from STFC only added to that. If those losses had not occurred, that's quite a few starships that would have been around for other events.

actually IIRC the Borg had already encountered humans (mainly the crew of the Raven) before the J-25 incident.

as for Starfleet effectiveness you got remember that Wolf 359 did more to the federation then remove 39 ships and their crews for the avaible pool, it shocked the federation to its very core. In the early TNG the federation had grown complecent and arrogant in that they would never encounter an enemy that couldn't beat without resorting to aggression.

The Borg changed that as the collective cannot be reasoned with and aggressive resistance is the only practical option if you want to stay unassimilated.

Wolf 359 didn't just change how starships were designed and built, also starfleet tactics and strategy changed signifigantly, where as in season 2 Riker dismissed combat training as irrelevant essentially, I can't see any starfleet officer saying the same thing after Wolf 359 or at least not with same smug superiorty that implied that Starfleet had evolved beyond needing combat training.