Avengers 2 (Spoilers)

[Lord Revan]

One last really minor gripe but I don't see how the hell Agents Of SHIELD are going to integrate this movie at all. With Fury turning up with a fricken helicarrier.

Well we know that Coulson was using alot of resources for something the "real" SHIELD people think it so that Coulson could create an army to take over the world for his alien overlords (well they don't word it that way but that's what they're essentially saying), but what if those resources were actually used to repair and crew the orginal helicarrier for Fury to use, that would easily explain why Coulson felt he couldn't reveal that cause doing that would reveal that Fury is alive.

[biostem]

Overall, I really liked the film. One impression I got was that they just kind of said "ok, they're all together and have been fighting for a while, so just go with it", instead of trying to tie things into the previous movies more tightly. Iron man 3 ended with Tony destroying all his suits of armor, so I was kind of hoping to see a bit of a lead-in to his new suit(s). Similarly, we get these Iron man drones, which apparently he uses for crowd control?

The whole "lullaby" thing between Black Widow and Hulk also seemed odd. I'm not doubting that they could form a relationship, but there was no setup for it - why would Hulk/Banner have this kind of rapport, even given how Hulk attacked her in Avengers. What about Betty Ross?

I can accept that Loki's staff had the mind stone in it, but I just can't imagine that Thanos would just kind of abandon it after the events of Avengers.

Other things I'd like to have seen - how did Thor return? After the leak of all the info at the end of Winter Soldier, has no governemtn or civilian agency come after Black Widow, Hawkeye, or the others?

Captain America can't afford an apartment in Brooklyn? Are you telling me Tony Stark couldn't maybe help him out?

I did like the satellite/backup AI that Tony had - seemed like a logical thing. Why he'd keep that in orbit, instead of ground-based, is beyond me - maybe the satellite stays in geosynchronous orbit to wherever he is, so it can just re-enter whenever he would need?

As for Ultron - I thought he had this kind of sarcastic/playful personality which I loved. At some points, I couldn't tell if he was genuinely confused or apologetic about his actions, or if it was a sort of satirical bitterness. Given his distributed intelligence, I too thought it was odd that he didn't, at the very least, keep one drone on the other side of the world, just in case. He didn't seem to be lacking for resources to pump out the drones, so that shouldn't have been an issue.

One last question - did Ultron use the stolen vibranium for BOTH his final body and Vision, or just for Vision?

[AniThyng]

Other things I'd like to have seen - how did Thor return? After the leak of all the info at the end of Winter Soldier, has no governemtn or civilian agency come after Black Widow, Hawkeye, or the others?

Captain America can't afford an apartment in Brooklyn? Are you telling me Tony Stark couldn't maybe help him out?

The governments getting edgy about all these metahumans running around breaking stuff is coming into play in the next Captain America movie - having the Hulk smash up random South African city and that fracas in Seoul are definately lead ins too. Also we saw Black Widow testifying in front of the Senate in Winter Solider, so it's not like nothing at all happened.

Capt. would probably be against accepting charity to afford housing above his means, and wasn't he making small talk and joking when that came up?

I like how the South African city manages to look like a real a 3rd world city - dirty and dusty on the outside, expensive shopping malls filled with the upper class on the inside of some of the less dirty buildings.

[Kojiro]

Overall, I really liked the film. One impression I got was that they just kind of said "ok, they're all together and have been fighting for a while, so just go with it", instead of trying to tie things into the previous movies more tightly.

I think, given the complete lack of cross overs, that this was a mistake. The last film ended with Hill literally questioning if they'd all be around if needed. The scepter presumably goes to Hydra after CA:tWS but if you didn't see that you're left in the dark.

Iron man 3 ended with Tony destroying all his suits of armor, so I was kind of hoping to see a bit of a lead-in to his new suit(s). Similarly, we get these Iron man drones, which apparently he uses for crowd control?

One more reason why the end of IM3 was rubbish. The Iron Drones are an excellent idea but they really, really should be the ones down there doing the fighting, perhaps along side Hulk and Thor- you know people a bullet isn't going to bother. Instead we get Hawkeye and Widow running about on a battlefield just praying no one flanks them or a mook gets a lucky shot. And these guys are using Hydra weapons- we clearly see Barton's body armour isn't worth shit against them.

The whole "lullaby" thing between Black Widow and Hulk also seemed odd. I'm not doubting that they could form a relationship, but there was no setup for it - why would Hulk/Banner have this kind of rapport, even given how Hulk attacked her in Avengers. What about Betty Ross?

Apparently while Bettany is happy to be on screen his wife isn't? It was rather left field but I can forgive it.

I can accept that Loki's staff had the mind stone in it, but I just can't imagine that Thanos would just kind of abandon it after the events of Avengers.

This is one of the biggest issues. The value of a stone can't really be quantified and Loki as a recovery tool is just stupid. Send a ship to earth and go through the portal yourself. You're Thanos- murder everything is the room with pitiful ease. Take the Tesseract and signal your ship. Bide your time until your ship arrives destroying a SHIELD facility, then leave at your convenience. The idea that Thanos maybe doesn't want to get his hands dirty is all well and fine, right up until you see him doing exactly that and saying 'If you want something done right...'

Which begs the question- where was the gauntlet? That didn't look like Asgard, which is the last known place it was seen.

Other things I'd like to have seen - how did Thor return? After the leak of all the info at the end of Winter Soldier, has no governemtn or civilian agency come after Black Widow, Hawkeye, or the others?

Thor returns at the end of Thor 2, in a second credits scene. Though by all accounts he's returned to shack up with Jane Foster. But you're right, without SHIELD or any other official body the Avengers are indeed a bunch of super powered people who tromp around the world smashing Hydra. If the guys in AoS are worried about Coulson forming a team of Enhanced, this would pretty much qualify.

Captain America can't afford an apartment in Brooklyn? Are you telling me Tony Stark couldn't maybe help him out?

Yeah that's just stupid. Hell you'd think there's a decent chance the city might give him a place. Or Stark could shake out one of his couches and buy him one with the loose change.

I did like the satellite/backup AI that Tony had - seemed like a logical thing. Why he'd keep that in orbit, instead of ground-based, is beyond me - maybe the satellite stays in geosynchronous orbit to wherever he is, so it can just re-enter whenever he would need?

That was a good idea. I'm pretty sure it's in orbit for speed of delivery, or perhaps there's even several and that was just the closest?

As for Ultron - I thought he had this kind of sarcastic/playful personality which I loved. At some points, I couldn't tell if he was genuinely confused or apologetic about his actions, or if it was a sort of satirical bitterness.

It's a major departire from the source, but I'm ok with that. What I can't stand is his stupidity.

Given his distributed intelligence, I too thought it was odd that he didn't, at the very least, keep one drone on the other side of the world, just in case. He didn't seem to be lacking for resources to pump out the drones, so that shouldn't have been an issue.

This is staggeringly stupid. This and the fact he didn't build himself a vibranium body other than the Vision one. Given the amount of vibranium he had it shouldn't have been an issue and he had no problem crafting it into his technobabble doomsday device.

One last question - did Ultron use the stolen vibranium for BOTH his final body and Vision, or just for Vision?

Just for Vision it seems. If his body was made of vibranium when it came under the combined attack from Thor, Stark and Vision we should expect to see much of the energy- certainly Stark's repulsors or Thor's lightning at least- redirected. It would also set a precedent for Scarlet Witch if her TK was strong enough to rip out and crush Ultron's heart if his chassis was vibranium. That would be monstrously powerful.

I have other questions, like why did Stark go wandering through a Hydra base alone and unarmed? Or why did a woman so hell bent on revenge against Stark- who submitted herself to potentially lethal experiments by the worlds premier terrorist organisation- just let him go when she had him alone? Play with him for a bit, sure I can see that, but why the fuck would you let him go!? Why on earth would Hawkeye not put an arrow through her skull when he senses her creeping up on him (how she crept up on everyone else is another matter)? She's just taken out Captain America, Black Widow, Thor, you have a personal issue with mind control and you're the last one standing? Yeah, she's earned lethal force. And don't tell me he can't put an arrow in her skull- he does the same thing to Chitauri and Ultron bots. I suppose it's the same reason Quicksilver doesn't just take a knife and end half the team in the same breath. The character shields in this film are damn near opaque and for me that really destroys any sense of heroism. Except for Quicksilver of course, who can inexplicably move a car to shield Barton but can't move Barton- like the dozens of potential train victims- out of harms way. Worse we're even shown how Quicksilver perceives the world, with bullets being quite visible to him- how the hell did he get so riddled by them?

[GuppyShark]

Veronica (Stark's satellite) was an anti-Hulk platform. When he and Banner are talking, Stark mentions Banner looking over his shoulder for Veronica and Banner says, "I know, I helped design it."

So it probably follows Banner around the planet, there's not likely to be any more of them.

[Vendetta]

I saw this last night and was unimpressed.

Avengers 2 feels like two decent stories crammed into one bloated mess. The Ultron story is fundamentally decent, as is the Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch one. Unfortunately to make one big film, each side of the story just crams together poorly.

I didn't feel watching it like there was a hard disconnect between those as two different stories, they do clearly gel together into a whole narrative.

What did feel a bit of a disconnect was the character side stories that were, when you get to the end, blatantly set up to shuffle the current cast off to have the New Avengers. The one with Hawkeye at least worked as a character piece for the "weakest" Avenger, and the one who had the least character in the first movie, but the Widow/Banner thing and the Hulkbuster fight was blatantly set up just to make Hulk leave at the end as he/Banner feels like his trust gets betrayed.

And since the movies have dull beast Hulk that's not very interesting. If Hulk was Hulk (see: Planet Hulk) then it would at least be a character thing, but movies are shit at Hulk.

It could have been tighter without that plotline, but altogether I did think it was a better written film than the first one, if not as much spectacle because the first film exists and giant superhero punchup has Been Done now.

(Also not as much fun as Guardians of the Galaxy)

[biostem]

Perhaps I missed it or didn't understand, but why were Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver angry with/had a vendetta against Stark? They mentioned that their home was shelled and they had to hold on together while their parents died/sacrificed themselves to save them - was it Stark's weapons that were to blame or something?

Also, while Vision said he wasn't Ultron, and he wasn't Jarvis, I didn't see/hear Jarvis anywhere after the Vision's introduction, so was Jarvis "consumed" as a result of Vision's creation?

And with the kind of budget these movies have, they couldn't have included Gwenyth Paltrow and Natalie Portman for the party scene? That would have been great!

Also, was that a new War Machine, or did they just revert the original one back to its original color scheme?

[Vendetta]

Perhaps I missed it or didn't understand, but why were Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver angry with/had a vendetta against Stark? They mentioned that their home was shelled and they had to hold on together while their parents died/sacrificed themselves to save them - was it Stark's weapons that were to blame or something?

Yes. She tells the story quite plainly. They're trapped for two days next to an unexploded shell with Stark's name printed down the side, hoping with every shake of the building as the shelling continues and the rescue crew arrives that this won't be the one that sets it off.

[Gandalf]

I think that was meant to convey how the facility she was trained/broken at basically took away most of her humanity, and sterilisation was just a part of the whole shitty deal, rather than sterile=untermensch. But it could easily be taken the other way, I guess.

From what I recall, she seemed adamant that the sterilisation made killing and such easier. So are all sterile people (or is it just women?) potential killing machines?

[biostem]

I think that was meant to convey how the facility she was trained/broken at basically took away most of her humanity, and sterilisation was just a part of the whole shitty deal, rather than sterile=untermensch. But it could easily be taken the other way, I guess.

From what I recall, she seemed adamant that the sterilisation made killing and such easier. So are all sterile people (or is it just women?) potential killing machines?

I recall her saying that it was "logical" or such, (but in a dry sort of whistful way) - like being sterile meant that there wasn't any "distraction" to want to run off to start a family or establish any long-term bonds.

[biostem]

Perhaps I missed it or didn't understand, but why were Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver angry with/had a vendetta against Stark? They mentioned that their home was shelled and they had to hold on together while their parents died/sacrificed themselves to save them - was it Stark's weapons that were to blame or something?

Yes. She tells the story quite plainly. They're trapped for two days next to an unexploded shell with Stark's name printed down the side, hoping with every shake of the building as the shelling continues and the rescue crew arrives that this won't be the one that sets it off.

I'm curious, since the whole 'Stark arming our enemies" thing was a plot point in the first Iron Man - is there a real life parallel where survivors of a war blame the manufacturer of weapons over/in lieu of the actual army that uses said arms? Did survivors of WWII try to assassinate the owners of BMW or VW for producing German war vehicles?

[Iroscato]

Perhaps I missed it or didn't understand, but why were Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver angry with/had a vendetta against Stark? They mentioned that their home was shelled and they had to hold on together while their parents died/sacrificed themselves to save them - was it Stark's weapons that were to blame or something?

Yes. She tells the story quite plainly. They're trapped for two days next to an unexploded shell with Stark's name printed down the side, hoping with every shake of the building as the shelling continues and the rescue crew arrives that this won't be the one that sets it off.

I'm curious, since the whole 'Stark arming our enemies" thing was a plot point in the first Iron Man - is there a real life parallel where survivors of a war blame the manufacturer of weapons over/in lieu of the actual army that uses said arms? Did survivors of WWII try to assassinate the owners of BMW or VW for producing German war vehicles?

Their particular story is more extreme, even understandable. They were children who had just lost their parents in the most horrific way possible, and then they spent two whole days too terrified to move in case they go the same way. And in all that time, all they have to look at and fixate upon is that one object, with that one name emblazoned on it.
That shit would bury itself pretty deep inside someone's psyche if you ask me.

[Gandalf]

From what I recall, she seemed adamant that the sterilisation made killing and such easier. So are all sterile people (or is it just women?) potential killing machines?

I recall her saying that it was "logical" or such, (but in a dry sort of whistful way) - like being sterile meant that there wasn't any "distraction" to want to run off to start a family or establish any long-term bonds.

I dug up part of the quote; "It made everything easier. Even killing."

[andrewgpaul]

She mentions that she was sterilised because whatever organisation she was part of wanted to remove any potential distractions, or possible alternative objects of loyalty. Once they'd removed all her "humanity" - including the possibility of having children - there was nothing for her to hang on to to resist the brainwashing. Not a simple "I can't breed so now I'm a heartless killer". As for revealing it to Banner, it seemed to me that he was keeping emotionally distant because he didn't want to face the possibility that his condition is heritable. Natasha revealing her sterility was a way of her telling him that he needn't worry about that, not "hey, I'm an inhuman freak too!"

[FaxModem1]

Can anyone explain to me the whole "Tony Stark wants to save the world by killing it, where do you think Ultron got it" thing? Scarlet Witch tells Captain America that, and that whole plot point is just dropped. We seem to be missing something big here. Does this mean Tony is secretly plotting to kill everyone in the world?

Also, Ultron's plan never seemed to make much sense to me. Use meteor to kill off everybody, that makes peace. Is his peace the peace of a graveyard, and that's what we're supposed to take from that, or is there something else going on here with him? If there was some sort of plan by Ultron to police the world with little Ultron drones or something, that would be one thing, but instead, this is just out of nowhere and, Whoops, AI wants to kill all humans.

[Nephtys]

Saw it tonight.

Movie was fun. Isn't that enough for a big dumb superhero ensemble piece? It was pretty, had a lot of fun dialogue, and gave everyone some charming character moments. Except the Hulk. But hey, them's the breaks when your character's charm comes from making the right awkward face when grunting.

I don't know who the hell Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are, but they seemed just fine additions. No idea who Vision is supposed to be, besides some sort of plastic jesus. But sure.

The 'final battle' was more or less the same as the NYC one, and that's just fine too. Things were a bit disjointed because of how much ground had to be covered, but I largely just didn't mind. It was... fun.

[Vendetta]

Also, Ultron's plan never seemed to make much sense to me. Use meteor to kill off everybody, that makes peace. Is his peace the peace of a graveyard, and that's what we're supposed to take from that, or is there something else going on here with him? If there was some sort of plan by Ultron to police the world with little Ultron drones or something, that would be one thing, but instead, this is just out of nowhere and, Whoops, AI wants to kill all humans.

His plan was basically "Create the Perfect New Human, discard old humans as now obsolete". It is kind of a twisted Tony Stark thing to do as well, looking at humans as machines and therefore replacable and disposable.

[Crazedwraith]

Can anyone explain to me the whole "Tony Stark wants to save the world by killing it, where do you think Ultron got it" thing? Scarlet Witch tells Captain America that, and that whole plot point is just dropped. We seem to be missing something big here. Does this mean Tony is secretly plotting to kill everyone in the world?

That's not the line it was 'Destroying the world, while thinking he's saving it'

What was Tony Stark doing right then? Trying to create Vision. Which they thought was basically Ultron's perfect unbeatable form. That it turned out okay doesn't really mean he wasn't repeating the same mistakes as he did with Ultron. By trying the create the means to save the world, he's actually creating the means of its destruction.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I saw it yesterday. It was pretty damn fun. Having never read any of the comics I can't comment on how well it represents them though. It had action, it had character pieces, I especially liked the bits with Hawkeye and his family, I really didn't see that one coming. I expected Fury to reappear somewhere, but in a freaking Helicarrier come to save the day.

So, yeah, enjoyable, entertaining, lots of possibilities for future films, definitely worth the ticket.

[Lost Soal]

The whole "lullaby" thing between Black Widow and Hulk also seemed odd. I'm not doubting that they could form a relationship, but there was no setup for it - why would Hulk/Banner have this kind of rapport, even given how Hulk attacked her in Avengers. What about Betty Ross?

I believe that would be hypnotic suggestion given to Banner and its meant to allow Widow reach Banner, and it works specifically because Banner and Widow are getting closer. They even said the lullaby was becoming more effective.

I can accept that Loki's staff had the mind stone in it, but I just can't imagine that Thanos would just kind of abandon it after the events of Avengers.

Not sure if he had a choice. He probably can't get it back without going to Earth and I think he wants to know the location of all the Infinity Stones before he moves.

As for Ultron - I thought he had this kind of sarcastic/playful personality which I loved. At some points, I couldn't tell if he was genuinely confused or apologetic about his actions, or if it was a sort of satirical bitterness. Given his distributed intelligence, I too thought it was odd that he didn't, at the very least, keep one drone on the other side of the world, just in case. He didn't seem to be lacking for resources to pump out the drones, so that shouldn't have been an issue.

He didn't need to hide a body. He had unfettered access to the internet and could go anywhere. There was no way he could have anticipated Vision locking him out, leaving him no option but to go all out.

One last question - did Ultron use the stolen vibranium for BOTH his final body and Vision, or just for Vision?

He was at least partially made of Vibrabium, Stark even comments on it the first time he sees Ultron in the church. Its the only explanation for how that body survived the combined blasts of Thor, Vision & Stark plus a running punch from Hulk.

The movie as a whole I enjoyed, think I might go see it again.
I have this wild hope after watching it, which is that Banner washes up on Wakanda and during the course of the Black Panther movie he gets injected by Wakandan nanobots or some other super tech giving Hulk his post Planet Hulk intelligence.

[Gaidin]

I have this wild hope after watching it, which is that Banner washes up on Wakanda and during the course of the Black Panther movie he gets injected by Wakandan nanobots or some other super tech giving Hulk his post Planet Hulk intelligence.

Why go that far. Here's Hulk operating the machinery with at least human level intelligence and deftness. It'd just be the next stage, Banner showing through.

[Lost Soal]

I have this wild hope after watching it, which is that Banner washes up on Wakanda and during the course of the Black Panther movie he gets injected by Wakandan nanobots or some other super tech giving Hulk his post Planet Hulk intelligence.

Why go that far. Here's Hulk operating the machinery with at least human level intelligence and deftness. It'd just be the next stage, Banner showing through.

Was he operating anything? He waved his hand through the image then went to the back of the jet while it flew itself. That's what I saw.

[Gaidin]

Was he operating anything? He waved his hand through the image then went to the back of the jet while it flew itself. That's what I saw.

That we definitively saw, at least one button to turn it off.

[Kojiro]

He didn't need to hide a body. He had unfettered access to the internet and could go anywhere. There was no way he could have anticipated Vision locking him out, leaving him no option but to go all out.

Which still leaves him a complete idiot for a) not having a backup elsewhere or b) not having a few scarper the moment he lost his connection.

He was at least partially made of Vibrabium, Stark even comments on it the first time he sees Ultron in the church. Its the only explanation for how that body survived the combined blasts of Thor, Vision & Stark plus a running punch from Hulk.

Stark asks if there's a little vibranium cocktail in the mix now but it's unclear what this means. Whether he's speculating or pointing out he knows isn't obvious. We've already seen vibranium redirect the energy from Mjolnir (physical and lightning) without so much as budging Cap. Likewise we've seen Stark give a double handed blast point blank to the shield only to have it redirected in a sweeping arc, again without so much as budging Cap. We've also seen energy blasts from the staff redirected which is powered by the mind gem.

By all rights if vibranium is being struck by either Thor or Stark we should expect to see the energy redirected. The mind gem is obviously working on a higher setting than in the staff so we'll give that a pass for now. But on the whole we should expect to see at least some energy redirected.

There's also the fact that Scarlet Witch pries his chest open and pull out his 'heart'. Again we don't know how much/if he's even made of vibranium but either a) his chest isn't, despite housing a vital component or b) Scarlet Witch's upper levels allow her to bend vibranium. I'm not keen on Ultron building a vibranium body that excludes protection for 'vital organs'. Likewise I'm not keen on Scarlet Witch being that powerful. It means if we see her in Civil War there's no reason she can't just pull Iron Man (or really anyone) to pieces.

[Gaidin]

There's nothing to really hint at the bodies he was using he was using being vibranium. Not if they're able to do that. Stark can wing an analysis all he wants, but until he does numbers on a paper, or a resulting project from those numbers(see miniature arc reactor), I'm not so impressed. Mostly because as it's been noted, others are tearing the main bodies of Ultron apart. I'd say these are just the main bodies he uses until he has to fall back to the masses.