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Purple wrote:Both featured Darth Vader as a prominent character after all.

You mean as that whiny kid/teenager? If that's Darth Vader to you, then I'm the Archbishop of Genoa

My point still stands - vast majority of filmed SW content, both movie and TV series, is for all intents and purposes now that derided disjointed "Star Wars Universe" and the TOT rose tinted lenses worship going on here is sadly laughable now. Maybe it was true in 70s and 80s, but your typical 20-30 year old moviegoer and SW fan was 12 in 1999 and if he remembers something with amazement, it was Duel of the Fates, not Death Star battle. These people are much more used to have multiple Jedi changing every movie as protagonists, not to iconic trio of characters vs Evil Empire. Lucas sadly made sure of that.

Irbis wrote:So enlighten me, where exactly Luke Skywalker and Han Solo were in Prequel trilogy, Clone Wars movie and both TV series, again? Or for that matter, SW Rebels? Oh, wait, these must not be Star Wars enough or something

Future Vader is in the prequels, not to mention Obi-Wan and Luke and Leia's mother. As for the various EU TV series, those are hardly mainstream in the same sense as the films. The overwhelming majority of people who bothered to see ROTS in theaters never gave Clone Wars a second glance. It only made 68 million total worldwide vs ROTS making 102 million on its opening weekend alone.

Irbis wrote:So 10 million copies both KotORs sold were bought by Star Wars Geeks? Wow, that's a lot of them

The gaming community is hardly representative of the overall population that would watch films. And when it comes down to it, that's what Star Wars is. Depictions outside the realm of the films would need to be extremely good to really draw in viewers.

Though actually I was thinking about it, and there are rumors that Bioware is making a new SW game. It would be interesting if the did a repeat of KOTOR and went back in time. Now that the old continuity is gone, they could actually start fresh and stick closer to what the films indicated(Sith in power at one point historically, Sith wanting Revenge for spesific Jedi actions and Yoda knowing about the Rule of Two). What would really be interesting is if they made a pure Sith campaign in which you play as Darth Bane's first apprentice(thus allowing customization options for the character). This would be effectively adopting the Darth Bane* trilogy of novels which used that perspective. It would obviously have to start with a playable prologue of Bane surviving the destruction of the main Sith order, after which he goes into hiding and eventually begins training the apprentice. The endgame would be fighting and killing Bane.

* Bane was featured in Clone Wars and is thus still canon.

Irbis wrote:My point still stands - vast majority of filmed SW content, both movie and TV series, is for all intents and purposes now that derided disjointed "Star Wars Universe" and the TOT rose tinted lenses worship going on here is sadly laughable now. Maybe it was true in 70s and 80s, but your typical 20-30 year old moviegoer and SW fan was 12 in 1999 and if he remembers something with amazement, it was Duel of the Fates, not Death Star battle. These people are much more used to have multiple Jedi changing every movie as protagonists, not to iconic trio of characters vs Evil Empire. Lucas sadly made sure of that.

As someone in that demographic, I actually feel more nostalgic for the originals as an adult. The prequels just aren't as good and thus less worth rewatching. I still liked them, but they just aren't the same. It is interesting that when I was younger, I actually preferred the films that I now like the least. ROTJ, TPM and AOTC were actually my favorites when I first watched them. Now ESB and ROTS are my favorites. It is interesting that as I matured, my tastes in which films were my favorites matured with me(this was especially true in the preqeuls, I was the perfect age from TPM to ROTS). That is one of the great things about the SW saga, it appeals on so many different levels.

So enlighten me, where exactly Luke Skywalker and Han Solo were in Prequel trilogy, Clone Wars movie and both TV series, again?

Well Luke was a fetus, so he was definitely there. Han would have been a child but we did see the Falcon briefly.

Borgholio wrote:Well Luke was a fetus, so he was definitely there. Han would have been a child but we did see the Falcon briefly.

We also saw Chewbacca, so there is that. Wasn't the Falcon in ROTS as the Tantive IV is leaving Coruscant?

Wasn't the Falcon in ROTS as the Tantive IV is leaving Coruscant?

Yep, a brief cameo. It can be identified as the same class ship as the Falcon, and I believe that producer commentary identified it as the Falcon for sure (under a previous owner).

Adamskywalker007 wrote:Future Vader is in the prequels, not to mention Obi-Wan and Luke and Leia's mother. As for the various EU TV series, those are hardly mainstream in the same sense as the films. The overwhelming majority of people who bothered to see ROTS in theaters never gave Clone Wars a second glance. It only made 68 million total worldwide vs ROTS making 102 million on its opening weekend alone.

If one annoying teenager and a whiny kid that look nothing like two old geezers they were in TOT are enough to produce that was at the time highest grossing movie in history, then sorry, I don't see what arguments anyone can have against side movie happening at the same time.

And 68 mln might not be a lot, but it was displayed in a tiny handful of cinemas and still millions saw it or bought DVD. That was glorified direct-to-tv animated movie, this only proves what power SW badge has.

The gaming community is hardly representative of the overall population that would watch films. And when it comes down to it, that's what Star Wars is. Depictions outside the realm of the films would need to be extremely good to really draw in viewers.

The sheer number of people willing to pay (far more than TV ticket costs) for game set 4000 years before the movies somehow doesn't spell 'side stories are not viable' to me.

* Bane was featured in Clone Wars and is thus still canon.

Please, no minimalism

As someone in that demographic, I actually feel more nostalgic for the originals as an adult. The prequels just aren't as good and thus less worth rewatching.

You are an outlier. You actually saw all of them and can compare. My generation was about the last one that can say we saw SW TOT in cinemas, and that's because of 1997 anniversary Special Edition release. One year later, and TOT has to compete with Matrix and Phantom Menace, both of which make it look quaint and lose wow factor. Every year after that, more kids that saw Maul but never watched Luke Skywalker.

In fact, now that I think about it, one more month and we will be farther away from Phantom Menace than someone watching Return of the Jedi on very first seance. Talking about TOT being binding example to today's world still is blind nostalgia, I think

Irbis wrote:Please, no minimalism

How is Darth Bane being in Clone Wars minimalism?

His spirit/tomb was featured in The Lost Missions Yoda arc when Yoda visited the Sith world, renamed Moraband from the EU's Korriban. Though that leads to the odd problem that Yoda realized that his order existed but still assumed they were killed. It doesn't make much sense that Bane would be known but that his order would still stay hidden.

Maybe Yoda figured Bane was the last. And with the shroud of the dark side hanging over him he went to the tomb of his last and greatest enemy to ponder when and how someone will one day rise to take his place.

Purple wrote:Maybe Yoda figured Bane was the last. And with the shroud of the dark side hanging over him he went to the tomb of his last and greatest enemy to ponder when and how someone will one day rise to take his place.

Referring to him as the Sith who created the Rule of Two makes no sense if Bane is the one who created Palpatine's hidden order.

Yoda refers to the Rule of Two in The Phantom Menace, so for it to make any sense at all there has to have been some event in the past millennium that led the Jedi to believe that both master and apprentice had been killed, likely the death of an apprentice and some Dark Side adept that he had been training in secret to help overthrow the master.

To be fair, Yoda doesn't say that there's a hard limit of two or anything. When I saw fifteen years ago (eep) I took it to mean that Sith operated in little cells of two.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:How is Darth Bane being in Clone Wars minimalism?

His spirit/tomb was featured in The Lost Missions Yoda arc when Yoda visited the Sith world, renamed Moraband from the EU's Korriban. Though that leads to the odd problem that Yoda realized that his order existed but still assumed they were killed. It doesn't make much sense that Bane would be known but that his order would still stay hidden.

I meant specifically whole new KotOR bit. If the story is of such "quality" as new Vader comic, please no.

And yes, it makes little sense, unless a Sith was captured. But even then, why sing all secrets, including totally unimportant details like genealogy, to Jedi?

Gandalf wrote:To be fair, Yoda doesn't say that there's a hard limit of two or anything. When I saw fifteen years ago (eep) I took it to mean that Sith operated in little cells of two.

Yoda wrote:Always two there are, no more, no less. A master and an apprentice.

Though Yoda didn't ever explicitly mention that was fort the entirety of The Sith now did he.

AFAIK all that stuff - aside from Bane existing - is gone now. So who knows when the Rule of Two was brought in. For all we know the Jedi around Bane's time found out about this, killed him and some other person and thought the Sith were wiped out.

Not that I don't expect the new EU to fuck things up anyway, because it's what they seem to do best.

Some info on Rogue One.

Linky

If they add one line from old EU
Spoiler I'll have a nerdgasm

Given that it is presumably about X-wing pilots, somehow I doubt it. And I would prefer if in the future they stop trying to reference the EU at all. Especially for the new movies. Clone Wars and Rebels can somewhat, but it would be better if the new films tell completely original stories.

As a random thought I was just having, I wonder if any of the standalone films will take place during the prequel era? Somehow I doubt it. The focus seems to be on the OT and beyond now especially with the cancellation of Clone Wars in favor of Rebels. The new Battlefront game is apparently not really going to feature the prequels, though I would guess that DLC might add it.

And as I was thinking about this issue, it occurs to me that the OT really is a better era for stories because the heroes can actually make things truly better over the long term rather than just making things better temporarily as in the prequels(A major issue I have with The Clone Wars).

Though with the new sequel trilogy, perhaps the state of the galaxy will mean that it was actually better off under the Empire and thus none of it would matter regardless of the era. The good news for the state of the galaxy, is that Star Wars in 100 Scenes(the first reference book in the new canon) states that the heroes of Endor would face new challenges in restoring the Republic after defeating the Sith, which puts the state of the galaxy in a more positive light for the new films. Who knows how the new Sith/Empire play into this.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:Given that it is presumably about X-wing pilots, somehow I doubt it. And I would prefer if in the future they stop trying to reference the EU at all.

If you don't remember, without Dark Forces, X-Wing/Tie Fighter, and Thrawn Trilogy, there wouldn't be any mid-90s SW renaissance that led to Rebel Assault II, Shadows of the Empire, and Special Editions. Hell, it's possible there would be no prequels and Star Wars would have remained irrelevant, quaint 70s phenomenon, like say Flash Gordon or Battlestar Galactica (pre-revival).

Even if Lucas tried to revive it on his own somehow, after RotJ he was burned out, bitter, and killed several franchises with his clumsy attempts. People who lined up to see Phantom Menace and made it such cash success were in large part those who grown up on all the 90s video games, books and comics, things Lucas had nothing to do with.

Spitting on that legacy just because... uh, I guess because some people like to be elitists by hating on whole EU, both later money milking trash and great stuff, would be... both sad and stupid. Especially seeing taking one legacy name as nod wouldn't limit the writers any.

Irbis wrote:Even if Lucas tried to revive it on his own somehow, after RotJ he was burned out, bitter, and killed several franchises with his clumsy attempts. People who lined up to see Phantom Menace and made it such cash success were in large part those who grown up on all the 90s video games, books and comics, things Lucas had nothing to do with.

The Eu might have kept SW alive for fans, but the average person who saw the preqeuls would have had no idea who Thrawn or Kyle Katarn were. The same would likely be true with the new movies. You shouldn't cater to a small part of your audience. Another part of the group that watched it were kids that were too young to have seen the OT when it came out. That is largely who the prequels were intended for.

Irbis wrote:Spitting on that legacy just because... uh, I guess because some people like to be elitists by hating on whole EU, both later money milking trash and great stuff, would be... both sad and stupid. Especially seeing taking one legacy name as nod wouldn't limit the writers any.

Elitism has nothing to do with it. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of the EU is crap. Even the good stories have serious problems that would be terrible if they made it into new movies. Kyle Katarn was featured in a series of games that had increasingly ridiculous Dark Side enemies. Thawn was featured in the same stories as kryptonite lizards.

The problem with letting in anything significant(like a character) is that it opens the floodgates. The fundamental problem with the old EU was that it had no quality control. So if we let Kyle Katarn in here, then another author is having a hard time stopping Jedi so he decides to use a Ysalimiri. Then the next decides to feature IG-88's Death Star as a minor element in a story. It is far better to throw out everything and start fresh.

I don't actually hate the EU. There are individual stories I quite enjoy. But I would rather see them start fresh than reintroduce most of the crap of the old setting.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:The Eu might have kept SW alive for fans, but the average person who saw the preqeuls would have had no idea who Thrawn or Kyle Katarn were.

Really? Thawn I can agree with as he is only a book character but I would not be so sure about Katarn. The man was in video games. And Jedi Outcast came out in 2002. That's pretty recent. So unless your target audience are in their early teens now they would have seen it.

Irbis wrote:So if we let Kyle Katarn in here, then another author is having a hard time stopping Jedi so he decides to use a Ysalimiri.

Or they could get creative. All they have to do is show the new Jedi as being less capable in combat than their ancient counterparts. The prequels dialed jedi powers up to 11. All they have to do is dial them back a bit. Not something that should be hard to justify what with all the lost knowledge, tradition and stuff.

Purple wrote:Really? Thawn I can agree with as he is only a book character but I would not be so sure about Katarn. The man was in video games. And Jedi Outcast came out in 2002. That's pretty recent. So unless your target audience are in their early teens now they would have seen it.

I was referring to the late 90s, after Dark Forces. A lot of people played the games, but it wasn't because of the characters or stories, it was because it let them play as Jedi. And if we let in Katarn, why not Starkiller. Did anyone think that those were good stories?

Purple wrote:Or they could get creative. All they have to do is show the new Jedi as being less capable in combat than their ancient counterparts. The prequels dialed jedi powers up to 11. All they have to do is dial them back a bit. Not something that should be hard to justify what with all the lost knowledge, tradition and stuff.

I completely agree. I would be surprised if the new Jedi and Sith were anywhere near as powerful as the old. The power level of Jedi was well done in the prequels overall. TPM dialed them up, only for AOTC to dial them back down with the shroud of the Dark Side.

My point was that allowing one thing in from the old EU will lead to more and more bad ideas infiltrating the new canon.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:

Purple wrote:Really? Thawn I can agree with as he is only a book character but I would not be so sure about Katarn. The man was in video games. And Jedi Outcast came out in 2002. That's pretty recent. So unless your target audience are in their early teens now they would have seen it.

I was referring to the late 90s, after Dark Forces. A lot of people played the games, but it wasn't because of the characters or stories, it was because it let them play as Jedi. And if we let in Katarn, why not Starkiller. Did anyone think that those were good stories?

Purple wrote:Or they could get creative. All they have to do is show the new Jedi as being less capable in combat than their ancient counterparts. The prequels dialed jedi powers up to 11. All they have to do is dial them back a bit. Not something that should be hard to justify what with all the lost knowledge, tradition and stuff.

I completely agree. I would be surprised if the new Jedi and Sith were anywhere near as powerful as the old. The power level of Jedi was well done in the prequels overall. TPM dialed them up, only for AOTC to dial them back down with the shroud of the Dark Side.

My point was that allowing one thing in from the old EU will lead to more and more bad ideas infiltrating the new canon.

To be fair, in Dark Forces, Kyle Katarn wasn't a Jedi yet.

In 1996 I made a decision. I was either going to continue to be a 10 year old Trekkie or become a Jedi like m.... I chose to follow Star Wars. So you have to keep in mind that for many fans the Resergience of Star Wars happened in the formative years of their lives. For us to really enjoy Star Wars we need some of the characters we "grew up with". I like how Quinlan Vos is still canon and I want others to come back. Some stories were crap and need to disappear but not all of them. Also since 2001 my email account is related to Corran Horn, so that hapless Jedi better be around still.

Tychu wrote:In 1996 I made a decision. I was either going to continue to be a 10 year old Trekkie or become a Jedi like m.... I chose to follow Star Wars. So you have to keep in mind that for many fans the Resergience of Star Wars happened in the formative years of their lives. For us to really enjoy Star Wars we need some of the characters we "grew up with". I like how Quinlan Vos is still canon and I want others to come back. Some stories were crap and need to disappear but not all of them. Also since 2001 my email account is related to Corran Horn, so that hapless Jedi better be around still.

No need to worry.

The stories are just as real as they were five years ago. Corran Horn is still around.

Gandalf wrote:

Tychu wrote:In 1996 I made a decision. I was either going to continue to be a 10 year old Trekkie or become a Jedi like m.... I chose to follow Star Wars. So you have to keep in mind that for many fans the Resergience of Star Wars happened in the formative years of their lives. For us to really enjoy Star Wars we need some of the characters we "grew up with". I like how Quinlan Vos is still canon and I want others to come back. Some stories were crap and need to disappear but not all of them. Also since 2001 my email account is related to Corran Horn, so that hapless Jedi better be around still.

No need to worry.

The stories are just as real as they were five years ago. Corran Horn is still around.

But not in canon, some people are bothered by this. Personally I don't see how the old canon could have possible worked anyway considering that it was rather self contradictory. They actually had to invent the hazy window analogy in order to justify things.

In the old continuity you almost had to treat it the way most Christians treat the Bible, simply thow out the parts you dislike and enjoy those that you did. I haven't actually read anything from the new continuity, so who knows how well they will pull things off overall. I might be reverting to a canon purist(likely including the new films).

Gandalf wrote:
No need to worry.

The stories are just as real as they were five years ago. Corran Horn is still around.

OK question. How did this become the stock response to someone bemoaning the loss of the EU?

Yes, we get it. There is no Disney death squad that will come to burn our collections, and that's great, but it isn't what most of us EU fans are complaining about. Those of us who grew up with the EU and liked it are just sorry to hear that there won't be anymore stories with Jaina Solo or Kyle Katarn, that Timothy Zahn will never get to write his novel about Mara Jade's smuggler years with Talon Karrde.

Of course the typical response to that is that the EU was all shit anyways and good riddance, because most EU haters despise it so much that they can't even conceive of anyone liking it.