The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)

[Guardsman Bass]

While I don't think the scene at Dol Goldur was perfect, I actually did like seeing Elrond, Saruman, and Galadriel throw-down against the Nazgul and Sauron. The Silmarillion and supplementary materials have all kinds of epic one-on-one battles between Elf Lords and their enemies: Glorfindel slaying a balrog one on one, etc. But we mostly don't get to see it in the movies, aside from this and Gandalf (also) killing a balrog.

[Crazedwraith]

Most of stuff have covered just some things that bugged me I haven't read here yet:

Kili and Fili's deaths just sucked. It's basically a side effect of the named characters being able to go through unnamed orcs and goblins like nothing. (Seriously, they literally had two named Dwarfs face down 100 goblins like it was no deal at all) In the book iirc, there's just one big battle and there are just too many orcs falling on them.

The film could have drawn it out to someone finally falling to a horde of enemies. In a death of a thousand cuts sought of way. Even more so with Tauriel and Kili, if you had to kill Fili like that. i'm not big fan of Tauriel but the fact she had zero impact on the final battle was just appalling. She throws herself on Kill's attacker and he swats her away and kills Killi anyway. Then she throws herself on him again and they both go over. That would have been almost a fitting end for them both as they fall off the mountain. But somehow they both survive and then suddenly its Legolas' fight. Ugh.

I'm glad Thorin got Orcrist back before the end. But I wish that Legolas had actually given it to him and they'd shared a moment over it or something. Minor quibble.

Oh, and five armies does that mean it was elves, dwarfs, men and eagles against orcs in this version? Men didn't count in the book right? it was elves, dwarfs and eagles vs goblins and wolves in the book, wasn't it?

[Ziggy Stardust]

Also, seeing the master's crony dude being a coward and douchebag over and over got a bit tiring for me, yeah, we get it, the guy's a sleazebag.

Yeah, all of the scenes with him were terrible. At no point was he actually relevant for the advancement of the plot, he was just really forced and awful attempts at comedic relief that go nowhere. We don't even see what happens to him! Last time he shows up he's in drag with breasts made out of gold coins wandering away from the battle. I assume he will be dealt with in the extended edition, but it was odd that they bothered adding all the bullshit with him into the movie and then not resolving it in any way.

-------------

Random reflections, in no particular order:

1) Man, those Laketown fisherman sure mobilized and trained themselves into an incredibly effective fighting force really fast.

2) As opposed to other people in this thread, I actually really like the way they showed Thorin going insane. That was probably the best part of the movie in terms of character development. What bothered me more was how quickly and effortlessly he snapped out of it. And how him and the dwarves he were with were enough to single-handedly change the course of the battle. The dwarven army was battered and defeated, essentially, but oh hey there's Thorin now we can take down those giant trolls with one hit each.

3) So ... why don't the orcs just use the graboid/sandworms all the fucking time? Why not just tunnel directly into one of the caverns beneath the mountain and take it from within? Or use them in any other way than the way they did, which served only to ruin the element of surprise and give the dwarves time to reform their lines and whatnot?

4) I don't expect Bilbo to be involved in the battle, because he's not a warrior, but they just didn't really give him anything to do in this movie. He gets knocked unconscious and basically spends the rest of the battle like that. With the ending as rushed as it was, Bilbo essentially had no presence in the film.

5) So ... what did happen to the Arkenstone and the jewels' Legolas' dad wanted? We never see where they end up. The Arkenstone is in Bard's shirt or something, and the jewels are just sitting around somewhere.

6) I did like the Orc use of semaphores for communication. Nice little touch.

7) Seriously, though, when did trolls become so flimsy? The troll in the mines of Moria was almost impossible for the entire Fellowship to bring down. Suddenly there are entire armies of trolls that can be taken out in one hit. And man are those Orcs flimsy. You just breathe on them funny and they are out of the battle completely.

8 ) Fuck Legolas, fuck Tauriel. Just everything about them.

9) I was going to say it would have been nice to see any of the other dwarves have any relevant screen-time, at least in the battle. On the other hand, thinking back to how terrible the slap-stick fight scenes in the previous two movies were, like the ridiculously insulting barrels in the river scene, I guess it's just as well.

[Civil War Man]

I saw it over the weekend. I thought it was better than Desolation of Smaug, but that is damning with faint praise.

4) I don't expect Bilbo to be involved in the battle, because he's not a warrior, but they just didn't really give him anything to do in this movie. He gets knocked unconscious and basically spends the rest of the battle like that. With the ending as rushed as it was, Bilbo essentially had no presence in the film.

I don't begrudge this much, since that's pretty much exactly what happened to him in the book. If anything, they gave him more presence in the movie since he spent most of the battle conscious and actually played a role in warning Thorin about the trap. His lack of presence in the second movie was the real problem, since that's the part of the book where he was most instrumental to the success of the quest.

One thing did come to me recently that helps explain what I thought about the movies. Some of the gripes are easily explained, like how the Tauriel romance subplot is useless padding centered around what basically amounts to a fanfic character that accomplishes nothing while taking up an inordinate amount of screentime (seriously, if you cut out all the Tauriel stuff, the story could probably have been told in two movies instead of three without making either of them overlong). Others, like Bard using his son as a bow or Legolas's Chariots of Fire run up the falling bridge stones, were irritating but harder to put into words. Eventually I figured out a way to articulate it. A lot of those moments were simultaneously excessively silly and completely humorless. It's slapstick comedy done with a straight face.

[SpottedKitty]

Legolas's Chariots of Fire run up the falling bridge stones

Does anyone know if Orlando Bloom got a special clause put into his contract? There was the shield-surfing down the side of the Hornburg in the original LotR films, the orc-surfing and dwarf-head-stepping in DoS during the running fight along the river... Leggy's in a bit of a rut, methinks.

(Yes, it was orc-surfing. It looked like he clamped his magical magnetic elf-booties on the back of a newly expired orc before he could fall over, shoved him down face-first at the top of a rocky slope, and slid down to the bottom, perforating a couple more orcs on the way down. With not a hair out of place.)

[Tribble]

Smaug's death was pretty bad. Mind you, had this been Return of the King he wouldn't have appeared in the movie at all, and instead some character would have just casually mentioned that he'd been taken care of.

I was also really looking forward to a Sauron vs Saruman showdown. They should have made Saruman arrogantly challenge Sauron to a 1 on 1 and start losing just as badly as Gandalf. Before Saurman is completely overwhelemed Galadriel, Elrond and Radagast decide to step in which causes Sauron to flee as in his weakened state he couldn't take them all on at once.

Pride is Saruman's biggest folly. He would have been humilated after needing to be bailed out by the others. Even worse, he would have had to put up with Radagast and Gandalf saying "We told you so!" Between being humiliated in front of the White Council and seeing how powerful Sauron had become even without the Ring, this would have neatly explained why Saurman decides to join Sauron in the LOTR films.

[Purple]

I thought that the explanation was the fact that Saruman ended up just the same as that steward of Gondor guy. He had one of the palantirs. He started using it to spy on Sauron but ended up being fed information about how unbeatable the guy is. And than Sauron just made him an offer he could not refuse. Do we need any more explanation than that?

[Tribble]

I thought that the explanation was the fact that Saruman ended up just the same as that steward of Gondor guy. He had one of the palantirs. He started using it to spy on Sauron but ended up being fed information about how unbeatable the guy is. And than Sauron just made him an offer he could not refuse. Do we need any more explanation than that?

Denethor doesn't use a palantir in the films. The only thing the film version of him does appear to have is the ability to be a complete asshole, even before Boromir was killed. Which of course, is very different from his portryal in the books.

The way things play out in this movie, Saurman's fall due to the palantir doesn't make much sense. Afterall, he had first-hand knowledge of Sauron's capabilities! He joined them to rescue Gandalf, fought off the ringwraiths with Elrond and watched as Galadriel as literally threw Sauron all the way to Mordor. Saruman concluded that without the Ring, Sauron was not a threat. Given what we see on screen, there is nothing to suggest that one day Saruman would change his mind and betray them all. Hell one would think that after watching what Galadriel did Saruman wouldn't dare cross her.

Seeing as this was a prequel, I was kind of hoping they'd show the start of his fall rather than him suddenly going from good guy to bad guy. But I guess he at least made it into the movie.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I thought that the explanation was the fact that Saruman ended up just the same as that steward of Gondor guy. He had one of the palantirs. He started using it to spy on Sauron but ended up being fed information about how unbeatable the guy is. And than Sauron just made him an offer he could not refuse. Do we need any more explanation than that?

Actually, no. Saruman wanted the Ring for himself so that he could rule over Middle Earth. He could well have been a "Sauron" if he had gotten the Ring.

[SpottedKitty]

Denethor doesn't use a palantir in the films. The only thing the film version of him does appear to have is the ability to be a complete asshole, even before Boromir was killed. Which of course, is very different from his portryal in the books.

Could've sworn there was a Palantir bit in that scene, but I just looked again (I have the Extended DVD sets) and it's not there... although Denethor's line leading up to the revelation of his (mis)information source is there. Maybe I was thinking of Aragorn using the Orthanc-stone to reveal himself to Sauron.

[Tribble]

I thought that the explanation was the fact that Saruman ended up just the same as that steward of Gondor guy. He had one of the palantirs. He started using it to spy on Sauron but ended up being fed information about how unbeatable the guy is. And than Sauron just made him an offer he could not refuse. Do we need any more explanation than that?

Actually, no. Saruman wanted the Ring for himself so that he could rule over Middle Earth. He could well have been a "Sauron" if he had gotten the Ring.

I know that's Saruman's motivation in the books, but is it the same in the films? It always appeared to me like he was just a servant of Sauron, I can't remember there being hints that he was playing both sides.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I know that's Saruman's motivation in the books, but is it the same in the films? It always appeared to me like he was just a servant of Sauron, I can't remember there being hints that he was playing both sides.

In the films, there was no real apparent motivation beyond the occasional currying of favour with Sauron. It was never stated or hinted what his real motivation was. He just told the Uruk-Hai to bring Frodo "alive and unspoiled".

[streetad]

Although the timeline is super-condensed in the films, book-Saruman was already actively looking for the Ring for his own use by the time they decided to act against the 'necromancer'. The wizards and elves were well aware of exactly who was living in Dol Guldur thanks to Gandalf's reconnaissance which took place well before the events of The Hobbit. Saruman was blocking any action against Sauron as he thought the Ring might reveal itself if he was left alone. Eventually he managed to track the Ring as far as the Anduin and realised Sauron was using Dol Guldur as a base to search for it and decided it was time to do something about this.

Of course given that Sauron doesn't even arrive in Mirkwood until 'An Unexpected Journey', Saruman's motivations must be significantly different in the films.

[Rogue 9]

I just got back from seeing it.

Above all I can't shake one thing: Where in the hell was Dwalin when Thorin was getting brutally murdered on the ice? He just kind of disappeared for no reason.

[Kingmaker]

You really need to pick a tone and stick with it. Interweaving Smaug burning Laketown (and the attendant horror) with the Master's twittishness was a terrible mistake. This has affected all three movies to a greater or lesser degree. Luke Evans surfing a cart down a hill to stab a troll is another example of a jarring 'cartoon' moment inside of an otherwise serious scene.

Alfred the flunky could've disappeared entirely after the scene on the lakeshore. Not only did he add nothing further except bloat, it doesn't even make sense. Why does anyone continue to put any trust in a man who is so obviously cretinous and cowardly?

Ultimately, it was alright, but I can't help but feel that a lot of superfluous crap could've been cut and the whole thing made into two much tighter movies.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Ultimately, it was alright, but I can't help but feel that a lot of superfluous crap could've been cut and the whole thing made into two much tighter movies.

Superfluous crap is a trademark for all PJ LOTR movies.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Superfluous crap is a trademark for all PJ LOTR movies.

To be fair, it was a trademark for Tolkien's writing as well. 'Oh, look, a new character is being introduced! Let's listen to him sing a song for 10 pages about the entire history of his family line, which will never be referenced again.'

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Superfluous crap is a trademark for all PJ LOTR movies.

To be fair, it was a trademark for Tolkien's writing as well. 'Oh, look, a new character is being introduced! Let's listen to him sing a song for 10 pages about the entire history of his family line, which will never be referenced again.'

Better that than silly half baked poorly implemented subplots.

[Kingmaker]

Superfluous crap is a trademark for all PJ LOTR movies.

To be fair, it was a trademark for Tolkien's writing as well. 'Oh, look, a new character is being introduced! Let's listen to him sing a song for 10 pages about the entire history of his family line, which will never be referenced again.'

Superfluous crap is more forgivable in a book, where you can skim the stuff you don't care about. Also, Tolkien's random asides generally contributed to world-building. While many people don't care about world-building, the asides are actually interesting if you do happen to be into that kind of stuff (see: all of the Silmarillion). The superfluous crap in these movies is just superfluous crap.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree with you on this, I meant that last post as more of a joke than an actual commentary.

[RogueIce]

So I rather enjoyed the movie. Looking back, I'd have to say that with this trilogy, I can rewatch it without feeling like I want to fast-forward through certain parts. *cough*FrodoandSaminTwoTowers*cough* So that's a plus.

But yeah, it was fun and I don't know, it didn't feel rushed or anything like that to me. Felt like a good pacing throughout.

[mr friendly guy]

I enjoyed it. There were some battle scenes which stretches suspension of disbelief, but whatever.

1. That orc ?Azog seemingly jump out of the water like he was standing on solid ground. What did he do? Waterbend?

2. The lack of arrows being used. I see it against a few trolls, but the elves had the perfect opportunity to unload behind the Dwarven lines. Instead they jump over them.

3. The orcs could have won. If they just let the Elves, humans and Dwarves fight it out.

4. Fragile orcs. Good god when a boy barely in his teens could kill on despite armour.

I am sure there are a few more. However I still enjoyed this film better than the others. Just got right on with the action.

[Elfdart]

By the way, what happened to all those wargs being bred at Dol Guldur? I saw Azog and Bolg riding two and the others? Anyone?

[SpottedKitty]

I now have a mental image of a bunch of orcs visiting a no-kill warg shelter and coming back home with the snarliest ones.

[Patroklos]

I always pictured Tolkien dragons to be more like the Chinese version but with wings instead of the more classic western skinny bipedal dinosaur rendition. That's how they look on the map and better fits their description as "worms."