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Havok wrote:Seriously, how many humans exactly did Tarkin kill when he blew up Alderaan?
Seems to me like the Empire is just anti-Anyone Who Opposes The Empire.

... The Nazi's weren't anti-semetic! They killed lots of other people as well!

The empire's anti-alien bias is debatable and you can explain away the occurrences in the film, especially if it was in real life it wouldn't be much of a case. But given that its a film and all the scenes are there for a story purpose: to give us a feel for the empire, I don't think its an unreasonable inferrence for the EU to make and again, why are people objecting to the evil empire being evil?

Crazedwraith wrote:The empire's anti-alien bias is debatable and you can explain away the occurrences in the film, especially if it was in real life it wouldn't be much of a case. But given that its a film and all the scenes are there for a story purpose: to give us a feel for the empire, I don't think its an unreasonable inferrence for the EU to make and again, why are people objecting to the evil empire being evil?

I don't see Hav debating whether or not the empire is evil, but whether or not it is xenophobic. Pay attention.

Isn't it just as feasible that the Empire is multiracial, like Rome?

Gandalf wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:The empire's anti-alien bias is debatable and you can explain away the occurrences in the film, especially if it was in real life it wouldn't be much of a case. But given that its a film and all the scenes are there for a story purpose: to give us a feel for the empire, I don't think its an unreasonable inferrence for the EU to make and again, why are people objecting to the evil empire being evil?

I don't see Hav debating whether or not the empire is evil, but whether or not it is xenophobic. Pay attention.

Isn't it just as feasible that the Empire is multiracial, like Rome?

Er.. yeah. I know what Hav's arguing.

I'm sorry that last part was more of a general that directed specifically at Hav. I'm just weary of the board, which was a tendency towards Imperial Apologism going 'oh the silly EU making the Empire so much more evil than it really was.' It feels like it's just a few steps shy of 'Alderaan was a valid military target' style bs. (again this comment is not directed at anyone in particular)

I see Hav's point. From the films it is debatable. I could see it as individual assholes. Or institutional bias. There's no reason that the Empire being multiracial isn't feasible (except for them all being white guys) but there's no reason them not being mutliracial isn't feasible either.

But, since the EU is canon, and it did expand on the Anti-alien thing, I don't see that as being anyway invalid or stupid or a brainbug or anything.

So wait, the Empire is multiracial but nowhere do any aliens pop up? There is not one alien among the moffs (who are supposed to be analogous to governers). There is not one alien in Palpatine's entourage in ROTJ. There is not one alien serving on the death star or in the Navy.

In all nations in the past without implicit racism there have been minorities in power or at least in the entourages of the person in power. Heck, even where racism existed (like in Great Britain) black people still managed to serve in the Royal Navy. In a galaxy where humans are just one race of many (albeit possible the majority) it is just ridiculous not to have a single one present in all the scenes that are shown on film except if there is a real policy to keep them out.

Being xenophobic isn't evil so much as it is stupid. The Empire kills trillions at a time to set an example. You don't need imagined racism to make the Empire MORE evil.

As for the actual reason, I'm sure it was just casting and lack of time and money (in the first film anyway) to get anymore aliens in scenes.

Havok wrote:Being xenophobic isn't evil so much as it is stupid. The Empire kills trillions at a time to set an example. You don't need imagined racism to make the Empire MORE evil.

But you can add it in just because it would make a good thematic counterpoint to the inclusive rebellion against the exclusive dictatorship. It fits well.

As for the actual reason, I'm sure it was just casting and lack of time and money (in the first film anyway) to get anymore aliens in scenes.

True, for the first movie. For the second and third? Less so.

You can argue that with ESB, having more aliens would not necessarily have made sense in context. The only part of the Alliance we see in the movie is Hoth base and the medical frigate at the end-- small environments without many people in the picture. Perhaps Hoth was considered too cold for most alien members of the Alliance? Or maybe this is before the alien members started really stepping up (I vaguely think that's part of the EU, they don't step into the picture so much until ROTJ era)?

Bespin is an independent refinery, so we should have seen a few more aliens there. That does stand out to me on second thought.

More than anything, as far as I know it was a cost and consideration issue. Sure, ESB and ROTJ had a lot more money to play with than ANH did, but they spent it on big productions, such as filming on top of a glacier in Norway. One could say they could've just stuck a rubber mask on a few of the Rebel soldier extras; but then it'd be a guy in a rubber mask, which tends to be pretty obvious on screen. While Lucas and company weren't averse to the rubber mask thing on occasion, they did tend to try and make alien costumes a little more believable than that; Jabba's entourage should be pretty good evidence for that.

And consideration, well, they simply didn't think of it until later when someone said "hey we'll be seeing a lot more rebels in ROTJ, let's put a few more people in rubber costumes in there". Not to say they didn't want to add aliens before-- I don't know that they did or not-- but it does seem to me like they just didn't really think about it until it became convenient to the plot, such as the bounty hunters scene. Lucas might have been well advised to edit in a few monster heads when he released the Special Editions...

RogueIce wrote:So yeah. Aside from a couple of isolated incidents and some demographics that the Rebels themselves were pretty damn guilty of for two-thirds of the trilogy, where did this whole anti-alien and anti-women thing come from with the Empire? Note they can still be pretty damn evil without racism/specism/sexism what with the whole blowing up inhabited planets to make a point and nobody blinked an eye at it thing. So questioning this is hardly Imperial apologism.

From idiot writers at WEG?

I mean, this was the company that told GM to take away your character sheet if you were sympathetic to the Empire. They also invented the minimalist fleets and dumb backgrounds for Kashyyk and Mon Calamari (single planets overthrowing imperial occupation on their own? when both were far more vulnerable to reprisals than any other planet? seriously?).

Thanas wrote:So wait, the Empire is multiracial but nowhere do any aliens pop up? There is not one alien among the moffs (who are supposed to be analogous to governers).

Where exactly do we see any Moffs except for 2 guys commanding Death Stars?

There is not one alien in Palpatine's entourage in ROTJ. There is not one alien serving on the death star or in the Navy.

You can use the same argument against rebellion. Where are aliens on Yavin or Hoth? Where are alien pilots at Endor? Why alien rebellion members are even rarer than women in a movie made in 70s?

There is also the fact you can't say anything about Empire with certainty. Who do we see in the movies? Bridge officers of Death Stars and Executor. These are presumably the harshest background check positions in the galaxy - they would say nothing about general population.

Only observing regular troopers would tell us that... Oh, wait, every single stormtrooper, vehicle operator, turbolaser gunner, or TIE pilot in the movies wears helmet. For all we know, half of them could have been aliens, and there would be no way to tell.

In all nations in the past without implicit racism there have been minorities in power or at least in the entourages of the person in power. Heck, even where racism existed (like in Great Britain) black people still managed to serve in the Royal Navy. In a galaxy where humans are just one race of many (albeit possible the majority) it is just ridiculous not to have a single one present in all the scenes that are shown on film except if there is a real policy to keep them out.

Imagine you're making a movie about Napoleonic Wars or Crimean War. How many minorities exactly you could show at say Battle of Trafalgar or at Austerlitz? In Charge of the Light Brigade? How many Russian officers at Borodino or Sevastopol were minorities?

What entourage did the Emperor have anyways?

Scrib wrote:What entourage did the Emperor have anyways?

I think 2 guys so masked you only saw parts of faces and 6 royal guards, with full body armor. It's possible some of them could have been aliens, especially seeing royal guard dates to Episode 3, where most of Palpatine's staff were in fact alien.

Also, if you think about it, it's not like aliens are treated as important in rebellion. Let's see, Ackbar, supposed supreme rebel commander, orders to wait for jump... only to be overruled by civilian who pulls light-speed handle, causing whole fleet to jump immediately. Ackbar is shocked by trap and wanted to abort whole attack - again, overruled by civilian saying his buddy will disable generator. Ackbar puts fleet where it's easily decimated by superlaser, again, has to be told to mix ships with star destroyers to prevent that (which he opposes but still everyone does it).

When you consider said civilian, Lando, joined rebellion pretty much immediately before the battle, and he was black character in early 80s movie, it's pretty clear that to writers, aliens were occupying position a bit higher than house pets when it comes to respect and prestige.

Ok, Irbis, please name the high ranking aliens who attained the rank of commanding the most important fleet in the empire, or even name the aliens that make up the Imperial high command, or even name the aliens making up the staff of the fleet. Assuming there is some alien inclusion into those important posts, we should expect to be more than one seen in the entire OT.

Irbis wrote:

Scrib wrote:What entourage did the Emperor have anyways?

I think 2 guys so masked you only saw parts of faces and 6 royal guards, with full body armor. It's possible some of them could have been aliens, especially seeing royal guard dates to Episode 3, where most of Palpatine's staff were in fact alien.

Six

There's space to imagine the guy with the hat shaped like a phallus is a Cerean I suppose, but I'm not so sure for the rest of them that there's any aliens they could pass for. SW aliens are usually a little more divergent from humans than say, ST ones, and usually there's at least a skin colour change.

It seems a little disingenuous to downplay the actually present aliens in the Rebel Alliance while claiming that people in the Empire 'could be aliens' and thus there is no xenophobia, like this is an equal situation.

At the risk of mixing in and out of universe reasons, Ackbar being ignored in favour of Lando is less to do with the fact that he's an alien and more to do with the fact he's not a main character. And Ackbar wasn't overruled 'by a civilian' Lando was a Alliance General at that point.

Ninja'd by Crazedwraith, but yeah Lando was no civilian. He's done enough to earn General's rank, which they don't exactly convey for nothing (Luke and Han became Commanders and Captains by Hoth, even after blowing up the Death Star).

I also wouldn't call it "being overruled." Ackbar wants to play it safe with the Alliance Fleet, knowing they are unlikely to get any reinforcements, whilst Lando, the gambler, knows that these are the best odds they're likely to get and rolls the dice. Ackbar reluctantly agrees.

The mingling with the Imperial Fleet is more of the same. Ackbar says at point-blank range they won't last long in combat, Lando points out that it's better odds than being picked off by the DSII.

Gandalf wrote:

Havok wrote:Seems to me like the Empire is just anti-Anyone Who Opposes The Empire.

I think that in their actions onscreen, the Empire became characterised by people as space Nazis, which brought along the Nazi baggage.

I don't think George Lucas and John Mollo gave them field grey uniforms because they just happened to like the color.

I never got the impression that Lando overruled Ackbar. It sounded like Ackbar conceded that it was a better choice than all-out retreat while there was still hope, to me. Certainly Ackbar has superior rank in EU productions.

How old is the backstory that Han rescued Chewbacca from slavery under the Empire? Does it go as far back as the secondary material around ANH?

Elheru Aran wrote:More than anything, as far as I know it was a cost and consideration issue. Sure, ESB and ROTJ had a lot more money to play with than ANH did, but they spent it on big productions, such as filming on top of a glacier in Norway.

ANH had enough money for Jawas, Tuskens, the various aliens of Mos Eisley, droids and Chewbacca; and they showed the Rebels having no problem working with the latter two (Leia's insults aside). I'd imagine that they figured that that was enough to show that the galaxy was a wild and diverse place, in contrast to the homogenous/conformist Empire and its identical faceless troopers only distinguished by number.

(Edit: In hindsight I should've just appended this to my previous post.)

Document wrote:

Elheru Aran wrote:More than anything, as far as I know it was a cost and consideration issue. Sure, ESB and ROTJ had a lot more money to play with than ANH did, but they spent it on big productions, such as filming on top of a glacier in Norway.

ANH had enough money for Jawas, Tuskens, the various aliens of Mos Eisley, droids and Chewbacca; and they showed the Rebels having no problem working with the latter two (Leia's insults aside). I'd imagine that they figured that that was enough to show that the galaxy was a wild and diverse place, in contrast to the homogenous/conformist Empire and its identical faceless troopers only distinguished by number.

(Edit: In hindsight I should've just appended this to my previous post.)

If they could've gone to that extent on Tatooine, it wouldn't have been an issue to pull out the same masks they used there and stick them on some Rebel extras. However, they didn't bother. This indicates that it was a consideration issue as much as cost-- they didn't think of it, didn't care, or didn't want to. If they wanted to go back later and be all "oh hey there's totally aliens in the Rebellion", they should've inserted some digitally with the Special Editions.

I honestly cannot say for sure where it first said that Han rescued Chewie from slavery, but it may have its origins in the Han Solo trilogy by... I want to say Diane Duane?

I cannot say for sure either but I very much suspect it's Bryan Daley's 'Han Solo' trilogy...which predates ESB.

Having slaves doesn't denote racism on it's own.
Again, if a whole world rises up against the Empire the Empire will obliterate/enslave your whole world. I honestly don't think species matters outside of "Hey, this particular species would make better slaves for XYZ than for ABC."

Eternal_Freedom wrote:The ESB scene doesn't provide evidence of xenophobia, since Piett says "Bounty hunters! We don't need that scum!"

He's not referring to the aliens, but to the profession.

The "Imperials are xenophobes" is a SW version of a Brain Bug.

Im starting here due to the large number of posts after this, but he has a point here....
a lot of this is inference and it Isn't explicit, hence the entire industry in media and entertainment dedicated to talking about, quantifying, defending, obfuscating, ferreting out, making fun of or otherwise talking about race (i.e. dave chapelle's career) and we're on a planet with only one sentient species! WE get the point subtly as soon as we go into Mos eisley cantina and see that, unlike the imperial officer corps, there is a multi-species patchwork going on, whereas through multiple scenes we see ONLY humans in the Imperial ranks. What's the matter? Aliens can't pilot ships (Nope, Chewbacca) can't shoot blasters (Nope, greedo... ok not very well, but you get the point). The racist jailer and the rude comments by Leia and/or piett and the stuffy britishness of the Imperial officer corps ARE communicating racism (and the evil of the empire) in a subtle not-so-obvious way. That's why great movies are full of sub text.

Havok wrote:Having slaves doesn't denote racism on it's own.
Again, if a whole world rises up against the Empire the Empire will obliterate/enslave your whole world. I honestly don't think species matters outside of "Hey, this particular species would make better slaves for XYZ than for ABC."

I coule be such an ass if I was to selectively quote the first sentence of that post...

I coule be such an ass if I was to selectively quote the first sentence of that post...

I'll do it for you then.

Having slaves doesn't denote racism on it's own.

This is actually an idea worth discussing. Slavery through the ages has often been due to seeing the enslaved as inferior (racism), but there are cultures that have enslaved their own people for outstanding debts or as part of a financial contract. So while slavery often was due to the enslaver feeling superior to the enslaved by race or military conquest, that was not always the case.

Thanas wrote:So wait, the Empire is multiracial but nowhere do any aliens pop up? There is not one alien among the moffs (who are supposed to be analogous to governers). There is not one alien in Palpatine's entourage in ROTJ. There is not one alien serving on the death star or in the Navy.

In all nations in the past without implicit racism there have been minorities in power or at least in the entourages of the person in power. Heck, even where racism existed (like in Great Britain) black people still managed to serve in the Royal Navy. In a galaxy where humans are just one race of many (albeit possible the majority) it is just ridiculous not to have a single one present in all the scenes that are shown on film except if there is a real policy to keep them out.

I'd point out that A) at least from *just* the movies, all of the ground forces are clones of one very effective bounty hunter and B) All of the equipment is designed for the human (well, Mandalorian, but who's counting?) clones to use, and having them be such makes sense when a significant portion of your universe is also human.

The Empire, being diabolical and evil, is also very efficient; and builds identical ships/weapons/armor in huge quantities. It's cheaper that way, so what if it discriminates against races without opposable thumbs or with more than the regulation number of appendages?

Borgholio wrote:

Having slaves doesn't denote racism on it's own.

This is actually an idea worth discussing. Slavery through the ages has often been due to seeing the enslaved as inferior (racism), but there are cultures that have enslaved their own people for outstanding debts or as part of a financial contract. So while slavery often was due to the enslaver feeling superior to the enslaved by race or military conquest, that was not always the case.

I don't think the emphasized are true at all historically. Within the US, sure - that's what happened - after the slaves had been here many years. I'd wager that nearly all slavery - including that in the US - was brought on by conquest or debt. No feelings involved, just "we beat you, now you serve us." Does that turn into racism eventually? Yes, especially in a system where the enslaved give birth to more slaves, and they have no way of earning freedom. But I'd say that slavery itself arises independent of race.