Alphas cancelled

[Skywalker_T-65]

This may be my Stargate fanboy-ism talking, but Sci-Fi was indeed better when it was known for SG-1/SGA and nBSG. Compare how well they were doing with that trifecta, and compare it to now. If they could make another hit like those three, the station may make a comeback. As others have said though, the main problem is they are going for 'safe' shows. Reality TV and the 'Original' movies.

I'm still holding out hope for new SG stuff, however unlikely that is though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt

[Darksider]

They'll make a new Stargate series right about the time I start shitting gold bricks.

It's a dead franchise, and honestly, it deserved to die given how stale it had become.

[Scrib]

I meant from a taste perspective Stark, not a business one. It makes complete business sense to keep making NCIS, I just have no idea how it keeps drawing bigger audiences. It has almost no redeeming features, it's cliché as hell, and I have to admit I keep watching it even though intellectually I know I should hate it. Although for a show that seems welded to the right/pro patriot act/to hell with due process for terrorists side of the political spectrum, its surprisingly cool towards of Israel.

EDIT - Connor, I don't think its an accident that for a decade or more popular American shows have included so many 'strong tough people break the rules and follow their gut to punish the wicked and give the viewer a catharsis' shows. I mean, its pretty disturbing from outside (especially the way these shows have shifted views towards justice, crime and punishment, individual rights, etc) but it is similar to the way you can now retroactively normalise and even celebrate the terrible things done to track down Bin Laden.

More or less that. People love episodic TV with plucky,rebellious leads standing up to the bureaucracy that's worried about things like politics, civil liberties, lawsuits,the greater picture all that nonsense that they have to deal with in the real life that they think stops them from getting the bad guy. All that inconvenient bullshit that lets people like Casey Anthony off.

You don't have to think too deep about it. Here's the bad guy. Here's the good guy. The good guy'll not only win in 40 minutes, if it's CSI he'll get a confession that more or less explains everything. You can sit down and have a quick viewing without getting tied down or lost in some complex backstory.

Also, there'll probably be a heart-warming romance between the actors if you're into that shit. Of course, they'll drag it out forever and throw meanignless wrenches in the way but people like to be teased.

It's the Cornflakes of television, light, uncomplicated and easy to make and digest.

[jollyreaper]

I wouldn't have a problem with that, people get to watch what they enjoy, except cornflakes is driving out every other food product in the store (to abuse a metaphor.)

[Stark]

It's largely an American industry problem, although it's shared with the UK. Just broaden your horizons and there's good drama to be found. Regarding crime shows in particular, in other cultures these shows have much stronger themes of family, duty and justice.

[Connor MacLeod]

whatever you think of british science fiction, I do think they do generally better than American TV when it comes to other types of stories. I've noticed alot of people here have said positive things about 'Luther' for example, and there are a few other cop dramas I remember watching on the BBC America cable that I liked (and that's saying something because I have little patience for most American crime TV shows lol.)

[Stark]

Yeah, but the UK has endless reams of reality/soap/indistinguishable crime shows too. I'd rather get my sword chop/plotting fix from various East Asian shows than Game of Thrones, my star-crossed lovers from India and shit like that. People shouldn't feel there's nothing out there or that they 'have to' watch the same shows as anyone else. Scifi is probably the only genre that's much less popular in other cultures (whether due to expense or preferred themes depends).

[Scrib]

It's largely an American industry problem, although it's shared with the UK. Just broaden your horizons and there's good drama to be found. Regarding crime shows in particular, in other cultures these shows have much stronger themes of family, duty and justice.

I don't know, cable TV is often good. I think that it's more a network problem.

[Connor MacLeod]

CAble TV (in America, at least) is not 'often good'. The only possible good thing you think about it is 'variety' and even then its usually just variations on the same reality TV Show crap. Worst offenders are 'lifetime' and 'TLC' that come most immediately to mind, but you can probably find offenders in every venue.

About the only one I can think of who isn't 'consistently' horrible is Food Network, and thats mainly because I don't think they haven't found a suitably sensationalist way to fuckup food yet. I'd add Discovery, but they've been sliding into a shithole that has cumlinated with that 'Amish Mafia' shit. Oh and lets not forget History channel and shit like 'Swamp People.'

That really just speaks to what Stark said last - if you're exposure is limited enough that you aren't aware of (or exposed to) things that might be different (and better), what is 'good' will be scaled precisely to those expectations. Its very much relative.

[Scrib]

...

By Cable here I mean HBO, Showtime, Starz and AMC.

[aussiemuscle308]

Has nobody pitched the idea for a Blade Runner TV show? Like, really? How fucking easy would it be to make that show shit money? Guns, robots that look conveniently like people, a constant stream of people to chase down and fight, morally conflicted hero, possible teamwork angle if the main dude gets a partner, and a kind of discussion about man's inhumanity to man or whatever. In a crime procedural! What the hell.

i remember some kind of 'future cop and android partner crime drama show' from a few years back. I can't remember the name of it though, and it wasn't popular enough to get past a season.

[Stark]

There's a really old show like that from the 90s. It wasn't great.

[Flagg]

There's gonna be a new one by JJ Abrams on NBC next season.

[Scrib]

There's gonna be a new one by JJ Abrams on NBC next season.

I honestly can't tell if you're joking.

[Flagg]

There's gonna be a new one by JJ Abrams on NBC next season.

I honestly can't tell if you're joking.

I am not.

[Lost Soal]

Has nobody pitched the idea for a Blade Runner TV show? Like, really? How fucking easy would it be to make that show shit money? Guns, robots that look conveniently like people, a constant stream of people to chase down and fight, morally conflicted hero, possible teamwork angle if the main dude gets a partner, and a kind of discussion about man's inhumanity to man or whatever. In a crime procedural! What the hell.

i remember some kind of 'future cop and android partner crime drama show' from a few years back. I can't remember the name of it though, and it wasn't popular enough to get past a season.

Total Recall 2070

[Guardsman Bass]

CAble TV (in America, at least) is not 'often good'. The only possible good thing you think about it is 'variety' and even then its usually just variations on the same reality TV Show crap. Worst offenders are 'lifetime' and 'TLC' that come most immediately to mind, but you can probably find offenders in every venue.

About the only one I can think of who isn't 'consistently' horrible is Food Network, and thats mainly because I don't think they haven't found a suitably sensationalist way to fuckup food yet. I'd add Discovery, but they've been sliding into a shithole that has cumlinated with that 'Amish Mafia' shit. Oh and lets not forget History channel and shit like 'Swamp People.'

That really just speaks to what Stark said last - if you're exposure is limited enough that you aren't aware of (or exposed to) things that might be different (and better), what is 'good' will be scaled precisely to those expectations. Its very much relative.

Cable also has AMC, Showtime, FX, and HBO, which have arguably the best shows on American television.

[Covenant]

I am not.

That's depressing.

The other thing the Blade Runner show would have attached to it is name recognition, which is a big deal with advertising. Taking an established name along for the ride really helps get executive sorts excited about the possibilities down the road. That said, I would not endorse such a show, though like anything it theoretically could be done well enough to be compelling.

One of the things that Sci-Fi lets us do that other things don't is deal with real-world issues in a more sanitized environment. Racism, Sexism, War, etc. If you wanted to make a Sci-Fi show that actually did "well" in a cultural situation you might want to tap into something that is bothering people right now. Not sure what that would be without getting too topical, like Gun Violence. American use of force? International relations?

[Stark]

Its interesting you say that, because I recently rewatched a show I didn't really like the first time, and picked up on a huge amount of that kind of subtext. Turns out the show isn't about space pew pew explosions at all, it's about gender roles in a changing modern world. And I literally didn't even notice the first time and just thought everyone was CRAZY.

[Meest]

CAble TV (in America, at least) is not 'often good'. The only possible good thing you think about it is 'variety' and even then its usually just variations on the same reality TV Show crap. Worst offenders are 'lifetime' and 'TLC' that come most immediately to mind, but you can probably find offenders in every venue.

About the only one I can think of who isn't 'consistently' horrible is Food Network, and thats mainly because I don't think they haven't found a suitably sensationalist way to fuckup food yet. I'd add Discovery, but they've been sliding into a shithole that has cumlinated with that 'Amish Mafia' shit. Oh and lets not forget History channel and shit like 'Swamp People.'

That really just speaks to what Stark said last - if you're exposure is limited enough that you aren't aware of (or exposed to) things that might be different (and better), what is 'good' will be scaled precisely to those expectations. Its very much relative.

Cable also has AMC, Showtime, FX, and HBO, which have arguably the best shows on American television.

Pay cable or premium cable like HBO, Showtime and Starz isn't the same as AMC and FX, subscription based not ad based. At least in North America it's like that, they can basically do and show whatever they want, where AMC and FX while more edgy than standard cable still has to deal with advertisers pulling ads if they get too crazy. The only good thing I see is The Walking Dead beats network tv ratings with a serialized story style show, so hopefully scripted and non-episodic TV isn't considered risky anymore for more mainstream channels and finally counter reality and lazy episodic formula tv on networks. Outside of the same old cop, hospital or lawyer shows what shows on tv are serious dramas especially with other themes or genres?

[Guardsman Bass]

CAble TV (in America, at least) is not 'often good'. The only possible good thing you think about it is 'variety' and even then its usually just variations on the same reality TV Show crap. Worst offenders are 'lifetime' and 'TLC' that come most immediately to mind, but you can probably find offenders in every venue.

About the only one I can think of who isn't 'consistently' horrible is Food Network, and thats mainly because I don't think they haven't found a suitably sensationalist way to fuckup food yet. I'd add Discovery, but they've been sliding into a shithole that has cumlinated with that 'Amish Mafia' shit. Oh and lets not forget History channel and shit like 'Swamp People.'

That really just speaks to what Stark said last - if you're exposure is limited enough that you aren't aware of (or exposed to) things that might be different (and better), what is 'good' will be scaled precisely to those expectations. Its very much relative.

Cable also has AMC, Showtime, FX, and HBO, which have arguably the best shows on American television.

Pay cable or premium cable like HBO, Showtime and Starz isn't the same as AMC and FX, subscription based not ad based. At least in North America it's like that, they can basically do and show whatever they want, where AMC and FX while more edgy than standard cable still has to deal with advertisers pulling ads if they get too crazy. The only good thing I see is The Walking Dead beats network tv ratings with a serialized story style show, so hopefully scripted and non-episodic TV isn't considered risky anymore for more mainstream channels and finally counter reality and lazy episodic formula tv on networks. Outside of the same old cop, hospital or lawyer shows what shows on tv are serious dramas especially with other themes or genres?

Before The Walking Dead, there was (and is) Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Sons of Anarchy, and such. When was the last time you watched cable?

[Covenant]

Its interesting you say that, because I recently rewatched a show I didn't really like the first time, and picked up on a huge amount of that kind of subtext. Turns out the show isn't about space pew pew explosions at all, it's about gender roles in a changing modern world. And I literally didn't even notice the first time and just thought everyone was CRAZY.

Yeah, that's a value of sci-fi, but if it was just them seeming crazy then it might have either been too extreme or too subtle to notice.

I think sci-fi also lets you tell stories about some new THINGIE changing the rules of society in a way other shows do not. If you made a show about some kind of national ID chip, or in a more extreme sense something like an augmented reality future with an ID chip, you could make a commentary on the security v freedom thing. The recent debate in a different thread about if Americans could accept a simple Breath Check barricade from police shows that if you wanted to talk about topics like, say, gun control or other "assumed" freedoms it would be easier to do so in a future world where everyone had an ID chip in their head.

There's a show called... um... dammit. I forget. Some show where a computer spits out a list of names to this little heroic squad and they have to go save those people, and those names are culled from an omnipresent antiterrorism infrastructure that uses some kind of multivac/minority report algorithm to predict the badguys.

Minority Report/Multivac is actually a good example of a sci-fi principle that lets you address a societal point that would just devolve into namecalling otherwise. Sci-Fi lets you do what-ifs. Getting a network to sign off on a social commentary program full of what-if scenarios is hard though. Those messages have appeal but I'm not sure something like that works as a long-running show the way it works for a single self-contained story where you can tell a single concept (Aliens = Minorities and are people too, for example, has been used more times than can be counted) and then wrap it up.

Some stuff, like nBSG, can be justified in that it'll be a "good drama" on paper and has "topical themes" that they can use (war on terror, enemies among us, nature of humanity... those were their themes) and that it has enough Pew Pew spectacle to get people's attention.

A huge huge problem is that fantasy is really eating into Sci-Fi jobs, and it is very popular recently, especially the SO DAMN EASY option of "Fantasy in Modern Day" thing where so-and-so can be a pretty gal but also have Succubus powers. It is about as inexpensive as you can get, while still having a solid rate of return. All you need is schlocky special effects and the rest can be day-to-day angst and romantic drama overlaid with "but it'll never work... you're a vampire, and I'm a leprechaun!"

If you really want to get a sci-fi show made, have it fill these criteria:

1) Name Recognition: Have it use the name, or sound like the name, of an easily identifiable and notably popular Science Fiction franchise. Star Wars is tainted goods, Star Trek is a bit aging and people wouldn't know what to expect, but something like Blade Runner (as I mentioned) has positive cultural memory and no series. Other options for raping the childhood of millions would be a The Last Starfighter series (with videogame tie-ins, for fuck's sake), a TRON series (no idea how the recent movie ended but it would be easy to make a show where people went in and out of the simulation) or a Men In Black series. Don't tell me that wouldn't be terribly easy to make. Obviously this kind of brand appeal is where Stargate, Alien Nation, The Sarah Connor Chronicles, etc... got their names.
2) Award-Grabbing Potential: Make sure it includes enough hooks to win some awards other than visual effects, since this will draw in some press and good-will. Most shows are too shitty to attempt this, especially if they are banking so much on Name Recognition, but if you actually sat down and tried to come up with a strong enough hook for the first 3 seasons or so, you can maybe make a character scowl enough to qualify for best acting or dramatic series, or maybe a pretty enough location to earn best Cinematography or something.
3) Interpersonal Drama: Romantic tension and petty squabbling for the networks, sex and personal defects for the premium channels. Next.
4) Issue Centric: The show should explore some concept, be it a "What Has Science Done!?" technical topic like designer genetic engineering or a social topic like "Treatment of Elderly/Youth Culture Obsession/Aging Populations," or both the social and technical topics, possibly triggering a mass outpouring of "This is soo twuuue!" bitch-tearing from the baby boomer generation that still wants to see Die Hard movies and feels themselves aging while feeling that the new generation are all soulless iPod drones spray-tanned and fat-burned into hideous perfection. SOLD TO HBO so long as I include lots of sex, as mentioned in 4.
5) Reusable or Cheap: Either you need to re-use content (like a starship bridge) or it needs to be cheap (like a fake town on a studio lot). To produce The Last Starfighters, would need to either find a way of doing really cheap FX, or not at all, so it probably gets the can while MiBtv can be shot on a set for the Headquarters and then on-location around Earth for the rest of the shows. EASY AS SHIT.


All these reasons really make it obvious why Sci-Fi is such a limp genre. Nobody makes a TV show for the creativity of it, they do it for money, so they'll never greenlight any show that is sci-fi for the sake of sci-fi. If I told authors that printing the word "robot", "alien," or "monster" would cost 50 cents per use, but that "vampire" or "agent" or "humanoid" is free, you can see that even writers might start changing the terms they use. Data is an android that looks human in great part because holy fuck is that easier to do and you can still CALL him a robot, right?

Pew Pew in space draws people who want pew pew, but that audience is smaller than the audience of people who like sci-fi in general, especially if you ask them if they like this FLAVOR of pew pew. So why bother slicing a smallish piece of pie when you can get fucking everyone to watch a show like Once upon a Time despite the fact it'll use the most hilariously bad Green Screen effects and boil down to, essentially, a very long "Will they, Won't they?" set of setups (not all romantic, some violence related) amongst a cast of people who all look entirely human most of the time. It's not a bad show, but the rationale behind it makes it clear how financially-motivated it was devised.

[Meest]

Before The Walking Dead, there was (and is) Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Sons of Anarchy, and such. When was the last time you watched cable?

Was pointing out the difference between Network, Cable and Pay Cable. All the shows you listed are on cable but not Network TV which is considered the top tier, most viewership and budget. Network shows outside of comedy don't produce shows like you listed, it's all safe formula garbage and that's what I was trying to say. If a basic cable show can pull network numbers hopefully that changes the network landscape to produce more quality TV.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I watch a lot of shows on cable; Burn Notice, White Collar, Suits, Leverage, Lost Girl, and Psych off the top of my head. I also watched Leverage and a few others that recently ended. There's plenty of entertaining shows on Cable.

[Scrib]

I watch a lot of shows on cable; Burn Notice, White Collar, Suits, Leverage, Lost Girl, and Psych off the top of my head. I also watched Leverage and a few others that recently ended. There's plenty of entertaining shows on Cable.

And all those shows have a formula as far as I know, though I can only speak for certain on Burn Notice.