What was Palpatine's original plan in TPM?

[Seele]

You're not suppose to care about the fate of Naboo? OMG! Then why waste millions of dollars filming a multi-faceted battle sequence for something we not suppose to care about? Did you seriously just write that?

My god, you prequel defenders will go to no end to defend bad writing! It's like you're saying "Yes the movie that you see is pointless, but the underlying story you don't see is incredible!" Well, show us that movie then! Don't waste my time with the other one that is just pointless filler with no consequences.

I really don't wish any sort of thread derailment but in reading your thoughts and opinions in this thread on similar other ones. I just have to ask with all honesty if there is any sort of mass media that you enjoy and defend irregardless of it's quality? It just seems that you have some sort of issue that other people actually don't share your views on the prequels. And simply don't understand that.

[Metahive]

Apart the fear of the Sith. I don't know you, but if I was in his shoes and a Sith or somebody who could do a good impression of it asked me to do that, I'd do. And I recall of an Hath Monchar guy who tried to rattle them out: he was found beheaded, and the Black Sun Vigo he tried to sell the data to had been killed with all his subordinates but a poor soul who spoke of a 'misterious' invincible assassin, before dieing out of fear as the same assassin killed pretty much all the other Vigos. You don't rattle out a guy like this.

Two things to consider. First, according to the EU neimodian society is a darwinian nightmare that forces its members into murderous competition from the day they're born. Someone who grew up in such a society should not be easily fazed by simple death threats, especially if they're used to push him into self-destructive and unproductive actions. Heck, Gunray probably gets a dozen death threats a day and several attempts on his life a week so a shadowy dipshit telling him to comply "or else...(jazz hands)" simply shouldn't be enough to do the trick. The movies also give the impression that they were having a deal, not that it was one-sided coercion, Sidious undiplomatic and bossy attitude notwithstanding.
Second, and you ignored that point, Sidious can't afford to kill Gunray, he still needs him and as the rest of the movie trilogy shows Gunray doesn't lose his usefulness to Sidious until the very end of the Clone Wars to the point that he bails him out on several occasions. If Gunray has any shred of cunning, and he better should have considering the setup of neimodian society and the fact that he managed to become the TF's top dog, he should have been aware of that.

[ronindave]

I really don't wish any sort of thread derailment but in reading your thoughts and opinions in this thread on similar other ones. I just have to ask with all honesty if there is any sort of mass media that you enjoy and defend irregardless of it's quality? It just seems that you have some sort of issue that other people actually don't share your views on the prequels. And simply don't understand that.

i was commenting on the specialness of the extreme defense these films brings out of people to the point of defending aspects that fly in the face of the original story and whole story arch or go against good storytelling.

There are films I like which others don't but no I don't defend them with this kind of intensity. I like Star Trek First Contact and I have seen criticism of them including RedLetterMedia's and ConfusedMAtthew's. I still like the film but I also can see their points of what's wrong with the story especially the parts that fly in the face of the original source material. I'm not going to make excuses for inconsistent writing and plot holes when they are blatantly there

[Purple]

I am dead serious. You have to observe the movie as two distinct chains of event. One of them is shown because that is the one the characters are witnessing giving us an in character perspective of the events from the view point of the protagonist.

The other is what is actually important and what we as the informed viewer know is important because we watched the original trilogy. The situation was already decided before the battle began. And that is the beauty of it. See the brilliant schemes of Palpatine at work.

[Darth Tedious]

The way the story was told (badly I might add) there needed to be more of Palpatine and his designs and less pointless fillers like Obi-wan and Qui-Gon going thru the planet core, fighting Darth Maul, Obi-wan fighting Jango Fett and his discovery of the clones which never was taken into consideration, Obi-wan fighting Grievous whose death did not end the war (anakin killing the leaders did), the battle on the wookie planet. None of those things had much bearing on the plot as Palpatine's schemings and manipulations did.

Just for kicks, let's apply the same logic to some of ANH.
Why did we waste time on the pointless filler of Luke and Han 'rescuing' Princess Leia from the DS, when every Stormtrooper they fought had been ordered to let them escape? The bad guys had already decided the outcome of the fight, so it was of no consequence. What was more important to the plot was the tracking device being planted on the Falcon (which happened offscreen!!! ). It had a massive bearing on the story, because it allowed the Imperials to find the Rebel scum's base. The entire tension of the film's final battle (ZOMG!!! The rebels might get wiped out!!! ) was set up by this one event, that we didn't even get to see! Besides Vader killing Obi-Wan, all the action we saw on the DS was pawns versus pawns. The real movement took place off-screen. All Uncle George gave us was a couple of comments between Vader and Tarkin after the fact. Why?
Partly because it was more exciting that way. But mostly because the story was told from the point of view of the heroes.
They thought they were actually making a daring escape, when really they were just putting the bad guys into a better position to fuck them up later. The 'escape' was shown, because it was more exciting than watching a technition put a beacon on the MF.
Similarly, the heroes on Naboo thought they were actually making a difference through their actions, when all they were doing was handing Palpatine more power to fuck them with up later. The Battle of Naboo was shown because it was more exciting than an election.
See the resemblence?
It's fine to hate the prequels, but you are saying they were badly written with an argument that could just as easily be turned on the OT. Unless, of course, you contend that all of Star Wars sucks and George Lucas is a shit writer, in which case I just helped your argument along...

But I do agree, there should have been more of Palpatine. That guy rules!

[ronindave]

See the resemblence?

Nope because at the end of the ANH was filmed and acted better with more interesting characters. Besides the DS scenes set in motion the climatic battle to follow whereas Naboo did nothing.

See the brilliant schemes of Palpatine at work.

So he is the protagonists of the Prequels then? But the problem is we DON'T see his schemes at work, only parts of them. In TPM we only the Darth Sidious side we don't see the schemes behind that persona - the true Palpatine.

[lord Martiya]

First, according to the EU neimodian society is a darwinian nightmare that forces its members into murderous competition from the day they're born. Someone who grew up in such a society should not be easily fazed by simple death threats, especially if they're used to push him into self-destructive and unproductive actions. Heck, Gunray probably gets a dozen death threats a day and several attempts on his life a week so a shadowy dipshit telling him to comply "or else...(jazz hands)" simply shouldn't be enough to do the trick. The movies also give the impression that they were having a deal, not that it was one-sided coercion, Sidious undiplomatic and bossy attitude notwithstanding.

I know. But the thing is, on one hand we have death threats, on the other there's the fact that when Sidious wants you dead you are lucky if the death is painless. About the deal, the initial part was apparently 'I make you the sole leader of the Trade Federation and give you a larger and improved army and you invade Naboo', and after they made the deal the Trade Federation started to get the larger and improved army that, for a misterious malfunction, shot down any opposition to Gunray. You keep your deal with this guy, especially after he kept his part and already proved willing to kill you in a very gruesome fashion if you try and renege.

Second, and you ignored that point, Sidious can't afford to kill Gunray, he still needs him and as the rest of the movie trilogy shows Gunray doesn't lose his usefulness to Sidious until the very end of the Clone Wars to the point that he bails him out on several occasions. If Gunray has any shred of cunning, and he better should have considering the setup of neimodian society and the fact that he managed to become the TF's top dog, he should have been aware of that.

True. But for what we know, Gunray may have simply felt that Sidious just found less wasteful to keep Gunray out of trouble than getting a new puppet. And in a deleted scene of ROTS he had a few droidekas around just in case Sidious decided to off him (in the scene, Gunray manages to evade Vader long enough to sick the droidekas on him, and believes he killed the Sith. We all know how it ended).

[Metahive]

The problem I have is that in the SW universe the Sith do not have a monopoly at being good at making people dead (cleanly or messily), a skilled bounty hunter can measure up with them when it comes to that. Bounty hunters like, say, Cad Bane. They also work for anyone who can cough up the money and someone like Gunray probably has many rivals who could afford it. So I just can't accept simple threats of violence to be sufficient to make Gunray grovel before Sidious and his rather unreasonable demands like that. I know the EU ashows that the Neimodians managed to gain control over the TF under Sidious' tutelage, the movies unfortunately skimp on that detail.

A more reasonable explanation for the bullying demeanor of Sidious would be that he has the means at hand to swiftly remove the Neimodians from the cushy position he helped them into but that's never shown to be the case.

[Adam Reynolds]

The problem I have is that in the SW universe the Sith do not have a monopoly at being good at making people dead (cleanly or messily), a skilled bounty hunter can measure up with them when it comes to that. Bounty hunters like, say, Cad Bane. They also work for anyone who can cough up the money and someone like Gunray probably has many rivals who could afford it. So I just can't accept simple threats of violence to be sufficient to make Gunray grovel before Sidious and his rather unreasonable demands like that. I know the EU ashows that the Neimodians managed to gain control over the TF under Sidious' tutelage, the movies unfortunately skimp on that detail.

A more reasonable explanation for the bullying demeanor of Sidious would be that he has the means at hand to swiftly remove the Neimodians from the cushy position he helped them into but that's never shown to be the case.

While I won't intrude into your debate I love the hypocrisy in your arguments. You first argue that bounty hunters have the ability to elimiate people based on EU references, then you complain that the movies fail to show something based on the EU.

[Metahive]

Adam, are you really telling me bounty hunters doing hits are EU only? Sure, I used a bounty hunter from the CG Clone Wars as example but otherwise them doing such jobs was established at least in AOTC.

You first argue that bounty hunters have the ability to elimiate people based on EU references, then you complain that the movies fail to show something based on the EU

I actually also don't get what "hypocrisy" you're pointing out here. I said I found it unfortunate that something is explained better in the EU than in the movies proper...what has that to do with me mentioning EU examples?

[Purple]

Considering that Gunray is a coward as shown in the movies it sort of counteracts the whole Nevadian Darwinian society thing since by all rights such an individual should have not staid alive so long let alone become someone in such a high position. Unless of course he was put there by some unknown patron who helped him get where he is. You know, the sort of mysterious patron who can pull it off to do this and who would benefit from him later on.

Just saying.

[Metahive]

Now that you say it, I actually don't find Gunray's behaviour to be particularly cowardly in the movies. Sure, he tries to stay away from fights but that is perfectly sensible considering he probably never received any combat training. And with "darwinian nightmare" I don't mean "warrior culture". Imagine the european courts in the 18th century were devious scheming and backstabbing were routine, that's what the EU makes neimodian society out to be. Someone growing up in such a culture would take great pains to ensure personal safety and he would be totally justified in doing so without being a coward. There's a difference between "caution" and "cowardice" after all.

If you want a cowardly Neimodian, look no further than Daultey Dofine.

P.S.

Where did you get "Nevadian" from?

P.P.S.

I also already adressed the "mysterious benefactor" bit. The EU points out Sidious is the reason why we exclusively see Neimodians in scenes featuring the Trade Federation, you're not revealing anything heretofore unknown. My gripe was just that this wasn't mentioned in the movie proper.

[Purple]

PS. No idea, my spell checker is acting up like a retard since it is not programed with SW lingo. And I did not have a chance to double check since I had to run.

But really, I feel that mentioning it in the movie at all would be like showing how the Germans recruited their troops and stuff if you were doing a war flick. They are just mooks. And hell, the few lines they do have means that they are about the level of plot importance as Storm Troopers. Keep in mind that they are the lowest ranking sentient individuals on the evil side.

[Darth Tedious]

See the resemblence?

Nope because at the end of the ANH was filmed and acted better with more interesting characters.

What you've just said is because ANH was a better movie (which I don't deny), you refuse to acknowledge that there are fundamental similarities between the two films.

Besides the DS scenes set in motion the climatic battle to follow whereas Naboo did nothing.

No they didn't. What we saw were the heroes thinking that their lives were in danger, when they actually weren't. What set up the climax of the movie was the tracking device being planted on the Millenium Falcon. Which happened off-screen. It let the Imperials track the Falcon to the rebel base at Yavin, remember? If it hadn't happened there wouldn't have been a climactic battle!
How can you even understand the movie when you missed such a crucial plot point?
No wonder the prequels went over your head...

See the brilliant schemes of Palpatine at work.

So he is the protagonists of the Prequels then?

No. He is the antagonist. And in case you've never seen a movie before, the antagonist's point of view is not the one usually followed in cinema storytelling.

[Metahive]

PS. No idea, my spell checker is acting up like a retard since it is not programed with SW lingo. And I did not have a chance to double check since I had to run.

But really, I feel that mentioning it in the movie at all would be like showing how the Germans recruited their troops and stuff if you were doing a war flick. They are just mooks. And hell, the few lines they do have means that they are about the level of plot importance as Storm Troopers. Keep in mind that they are the lowest ranking sentient individuals on the evil side.

Are you by chance mistaking the Neimodians for their battledroids? Also, AOTC would disagree with you as far as their rank among the bad guys goes as Dooku goes go to some lengths to secure their participation in the newly formed CIS. No, they're most certainly not just low level mooks or cannon fodder, they're a major political player. A more apt WW2 comparison would be Germany forming the tripartite pact with Japan, there too knowing just why they join up would be of some interest.

[Purple]

No, the Neimodians and every other living member of the CIS are effectively the lowest level sentient members of the CIS. The droids are just tools. A good comparison would be to say that the Neimodians and the others are the Storm Troopers and the droids are the rifles used to shoot at our hero.

[ronindave]

What you've just said is because ANH was a better movie (which I don't deny), you refuse to acknowledge that there are fundamental similarities between the two films.

No there isn't for several reasons. The DS scenes were not the climax of the film whereas the Battle of Naboo was in TPM. At the beginning of the DS neither the Empire or the heroes knew what was happening or going to happen. The Falcon was taken by surprised when they were going to ALderaan. The Empire towed them in without knowing who they were - only that the ship was the one that escaped from Tatooine and that they may have something to with the plans and Leia. Only Vader sensed Kenobi's presence which Tarkin dismissed at first. The Falcon doesn't know about Leia and are only try to escape. When they do try go after her that's when the Empire realize it's a rescue attempt and their plans shift.

This is what makes the DS scenes interesting - the changing and adapting to situations by both sides. Plus far more importantly we get more characterization and backstory. We learn more of Kenobi and Vader's relation and past. We get more knowledge about the Force. We see Luke becoming heroic. We see the banter between Luke and Han over going after Leia. We get to see more Leia's sassiness and her banter with Han. These are all good scenes because they give us more reason to care about the characters. And DS part sets up the scene for the ending climatic battle.

Besides the DS scenes set in motion the climatic battle to follow whereas Naboo did nothing.

No they didn't. What we saw were the heroes thinking that their lives were in danger, when they actually weren't. What set up the climax of the movie was the tracking device being planted on the Millenium Falcon. Which happened off-screen. It let the Imperials track the Falcon to the rebel base at Yavin, remember? If it hadn't happened there wouldn't have been a climactic battle!

Actually their lives were in danger until Tarkin reluctantly agreed to Vader's plan which occurred only after the prison break. And the main thing was tracking the ship not the people. Kenobi died, remember? Any other member of the group could have picked off as well but that's splitting hairs. Later Leia berates Han for not realizing what the EMpire was doing. We have here a character who is self-aware enough to realize they got away too easily. The characters in the prequels rarely if ever show any kind of self-awareness to what's going on in front of their nose.

Overall the DS segment is not superfluous as were many scenes in the prequels. It gave us a lot in terms of excitement, danger, humor, loss, information, heroism, characterization. And it leads to the climatic scene which had consequences whereas the Naboo IS the climatic scene which has no real consequences.

See the brilliant schemes of Palpatine at work.

So he is the protagonists of the Prequels then?

No. He is the antagonist. And in case you've never seen a movie before, the antagonist's point of view is not the one usually followed in cinema storytelling.

How is Palpatine the antagonist? There are hardly any real heroic protagonists for him to be antagonistic against. The Jedi pretty much fight his farcical war for him up until the last hour of ROTS. If Anakin is the protagonist and the story is focused on his fall along with the rise of the EMpire, Palpatine in effect becomes less of antagonist especially since Anakin hardly ever resists him.

Antagonist:
1.One who opposes and contends against another; an adversary.
2.The principal character in opposition to the protagonist or hero of a narrative or drama.

If anything, the direction and focus of the story is that Obi-wan and the Jedi are the antagonists of the the prequels particularly in the last film

[Darth Tedious]

Actually their lives were in danger until Tarkin reluctantly agreed to Vader's plan which occurred only after the prison break.

Really? What scene did this happen in? You must have the uber-special ultra-mega-powerzoid extended edition that even George Lucas hasn't seen. Check this shit out...

INTERIOR: DEATH STAR -- CONFERENCE ROOM.

Darth Vader paces the room as Governor Tarkin sits at the far
end of the conference table.

VADER: He is here...

TARKIN: Obi-Wan Kenobi! What makes you think so?

VADER: A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the
presence of my old master.

TARKIN: Surely he must be dead by now.

VADER: Don't underestimate the power of the Force.

TARKIN: The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe.
You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.

There is a quiet buzz on the comlink.

TARKIN: Yes.

INTERCOM VOICE: Governor Tarkin, we have an emergency alert in
detention block A A-twenty-three.

TARKIN: The princess! Put all sections on alert!

VADER: Obi-Wan is here. The Force is with him.

TARKIN: If you're right, he must not be allowed to escape.

VADER: Escape is not his plan. I must face him alone.

Vader turns and leaves the room.

Oh look! It's on fucking Youtube and everything!

Hmmm... seems like Vader and Tarkin had only just heard about the prison break when Vader left to find Obi-Wan. Did I miss the deleted segment after that? The bit where Vader walks back into the room? And convinces the 'reluctant' Tarkin to let the others get away?

No. No I didn't. You made that bit up.
Are you so desperate to defend the OT that you have to resort to making up scenes that didn't even occur in the movies?
You've been berating people that you shouldn't have to read between the lines to understand the PT (which you don't). All you have to do is pay attention.
Maybe if you started pulling imaginary scenes and dialogue out of your arse (like you just did with Vader and Tarkin's non-existant conversation), you could make what you consider a good movie out of TPM! One with scenes that you fill in from your imagination, even when they fly in the face of the actual events in the movie!
Obviously, you have a far better understanding of Star Wars than George Lucas does. You don't even need to stick to his version of events in A New Hope! Maybe you should tell him that he fucked up his script! You should even get him to sell you the franchise because you're better informed on it than he is!
Or maybe you're just a shitweasel who can't defend your point without resorting to lying.

And another thing...

And the main thing was tracking the ship not the people.

No fucking shit, really? I just said that myself, in my last two posts.

What was more important to the plot was the tracking device being planted on the Falcon (which happened offscreen!!! ). It had a massive bearing on the story, because it allowed the Imperials to find the Rebel scum's base. The entire tension of the film's final battle (ZOMG!!! The rebels might get wiped out!!! ) was set up by this one event, that we didn't even get to see!

Apparently you didn't believe me, because you said this.

Besides the DS scenes set in motion the climatic battle to follow whereas Naboo did nothing.

What set up the climax of the movie was the tracking device being planted on the Millenium Falcon. Which happened off-screen. It let the Imperials track the Falcon to the rebel base at Yavin, remember? If it hadn't happened there wouldn't have been a climactic battle!How can you even understand the movie when you missed such a crucial plot point?
No wonder the prequels went over your head...

Let me run what you said by you again:

And the main thing was tracking the ship not the people.

I'm really fucking glad that you came to this amazing realisation after I had just pointed it out to you twice in fucking row!
I was able to follow the storyline of the prequels without any trouble. I don't need you to explain A New Hope to me. I might get confused when you start inserting your own imaginary scenes anyway.

[Bluewolf]

Jesus Christ Darth Tedious, can you be more of a tryhard, chill out.

Anyway I was going to comment on this:

Now that you say it, I actually don't find Gunray's behaviour to be particularly cowardly in the movies.

This is a minor point but remember, a good portion of people in these dicussions have not read the EU. His "cowardly" attitude may seem obvious to you as you know to the background context which such behaviour is founded from but to someone else watching just the films that context is obviously absent. Though you mentioned that he may not seem cowardly in the films alone, otherr people are going to perceive it otherwise.

[ronindave]

Hmmm... seems like Vader and Tarkin had only just heard about the prison break when Vader left to find Obi-Wan. Did I miss the deleted segment after that? The bit where Vader walks back into the room? And convinces the 'reluctant' Tarkin to let the others get away?

No. No I didn't. You made that bit up.
Are you so desperate to defend the OT that you have to resort to making up scenes that didn't even occur in the movies?
You've been berating people that you shouldn't have to read between the lines to understand the PT (which you don't). All you have to do is pay attention.
Maybe if you started pulling imaginary scenes and dialogue out of your arse (like you just did with Vader and Tarkin's non-existant conversation), you could make what you consider a good movie out of TPM! One with scenes that you fill in from your imagination, even when they fly in the face of the actual events in the movie!
Obviously, you have a far better understanding of Star Wars than George Lucas does. You don't even need to stick to his version of events in A New Hope! Maybe you should tell him that he fucked up his script! You should even get him to sell you the franchise because you're better informed on it than he is!
Or maybe you're just a shitweasel who can't defend your point without resorting to lying.

Chill on the nerdrage, son. By the time Tarkin heard of the prison break, they were already in the prison area fighting. When they took over the two control rooms, there was no idea on anyone's part about tracking anything. The same scene where Tarkin and Vader talk is when they get the message about the prison break. Up until that there was no order to let them go because up until then no one knew they were onboard. After they take off Tarkin says they are taking a big risk and he hopes Vader is right thus shows he had some reluctance over the tracking idea.

But anyway, Tedious, you're splitting hairs and missing the point by a mile. You created this analogy of the DS section with the Battle of Naboo when there wasn't much reason to do so. These scenes are different. The DS segment is not the climax of the film whereas the Battle of Naboo is. The fight with the DS was the climax of ANH and it has tension because there are consequences. The Battle of Naboo was the climax of TPM and it lacks tension and more importantly it lacks a satisfying ending because Palpatine got elected anyway and nothing the heroes does make much of a difference.

[Darth Tedious]

The same scene where Tarkin and Vader talk is when they get the message about the prison break.

At the end of that scene, Vader goes off to fight Obi-Wan...

Up until that there was no order to let them go because up until then no one knew they were onboard.

...Vader already knew Obi-Wan was aboard...

After they take off Tarkin says they are taking a big risk and he hopes Vader is right thus shows he had some reluctance over the tracking idea.

...when they took off, Vader had just killed Obi-Wan. Unless Vader went back into the conference room, he must have already discussed the plan with Tarkin.
One of the following things must have happened-
1) He went back in and had a difficult conversation instead of dealing with Obi-Wan.
2) They'd already discussed the plan.
Option 1 is ridiculous, Option 2 makes no sense if, as you say, they didn't know the rebels were aboard, which would leave us with option 3- George Lucas didn't write everything perfectly.
But who really cares if he did or didn't.

He had a hit with the OT (I think we all agree on that).
People have mixed opinions about the PT.

The real point I was making here was that if you pick at any Star Wars movie hard enough, it falls apart. There are plotholes in Episodes 5 & 6. I'm sure you're happy to overlook them, because the movies struck a chord for you anyway (I feel that way myself).

It's fine to hate TPM (I think most people agree it's the most ordinary film of the saga), but why do you put so much energy into it?

Chill on the nerdrage, son.

I'm going to leave you to rant on for as many more pages as you like about how shit you thought the movie was, how badly written you thought it was, how little you cared for the characters and about the events, and how little sense it made. You have already done so in this thread and others.

But I must ask, if you cared so little for the movie, why bother?

Chill on the nerdrage, son.

I'll be chilling. Have fun.

[Purple]

No, it is you who are missing the point because you refuse to read between the lines. Worse yet you are completely historical about this one point that you are missing.

You see, your major gripe seems to be that you can not care for the characters because you know how it will end and that nothing they do matters to stop it. Well guess what. That is what happens when you read a series of books or watch a series of movies in the wrong order. There is no helping this. The OT came before the prequels and hence you, me and everyone else already know the ending before we know how it started. Lucas could not have done anything to surprise you no mater what. He could not make the characters mater more than they did.

So you can not possibly take this and say that it makes the prequels bad.

[ronindave]

What exactly was your point to begin with? Was it the minor plothole of when did Vader talked to Tarkin or was over the tension in scenes where the consequences don't matter? That was your original point if I'm not mistaken before launched on that hair-splitting tirade.

Going back to my original post I wanted to know what Palpatine's original master plan was - the one that went beyond his plottings with the TRade Fed whom he was using and this relates to the Battle of Naboo. Why did he have an interest in Naboo once he got what he wanted? They had no idea who he was. He could have told them anything to get rid of them or had Darth Maul kill them. The Battle of Naboo served no purpose for him and the movie jumps 10 years to the next one so it made little difference. As for the hero side they basically helped the bad guy into power and their victory only aided his cause. Had they lost to the Trade Fed it would presented a tricky issue for the new chancellor after the old one got removed for not being decisive enough and being under the thumb of special interest group types.

[Purple]

You just keep on going like a broken record. The things you list as bad are the major plot points of the movie that make it good. The fact that they both won what seemed to them a great victory while in fact aiding the bad guy is brilliant. It adds to the movie and is the point of the movie.

And the reason why he could not just do what you said is because it would have attracted suspicion. By letting the situation handle it self he made sure that no one connects the dots. I mean, some times this is like arguing with a small child. How old are you for the record?

[ronindave]

You see, your major gripe seems to be that you can not care for the characters because you know how it will end and that nothing they do matters to stop it.

Not at all so you can set that strawman alight and be done with it. Knowing how something will end does not mean we shouldn't care. I know how the WWII ends but this doesn't mean I don't feel for reading or watching about those involved in that war. I said before - it's about tension and consequences, not about endings in themselves. I reference the 3 battles in the 3 OT films because those battles have tension due to their consequences. We realize the importance of these battles both to the characters and to the whole storyline universe. If they lose, evil triumphs.

Battle of Naboo, this tension is robbed because win or lose nothing matters. Ultimately the bad guy won in the end and the battle of Naboo was rendered pointless and without consequence.