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Hmm, the only non-mainstream band I listen to is Neutral Milk Hotel, and they're "very famous" by indy standards anyway so it's on the verge of not counting.

As for shit like 50 Cent, it's the same old different strokes for different blokes. Some people genuinely think that these people make good music, and we're not really in a position to say "no they don't" except as a statement of our own opinion differing from theirs.

Havok wrote:

The industry does not let rappers age gracefully, unlike rock.

Did you really just say that?

Laugh all you want, but AC/DC's members are literally senior citizens, and their tours still sell out, and their albums still sell in the millions (despite being unavailable digitally). Then there's Neil Young, who was staying relevant well into the late 80s, even though he was born in fucking WW2.

Hell, half the bands that trendy young hipsters like today are full of old guys (Coldplay, Radiohead, etc.). You really don't see that with hip hop. Jay-Z might be the closest thing we have to that. And then of course, there's Ice T (the closest thing hip hop has to an active senior citizen), who tells teenagers to "eat a dick" on the interwebz. I mean, he has an acting career, so that's something, but still.

The Vortex Empire wrote:As far as music in general goes, the most popular artists will usually be the ones who pump out the worst, least complex music. Average Joe doesn't want to have to think to process his music, so the simpler the better. Then the simpler artists get more wealthy, allowing them to advertise their music more, and so on.

I don't listen to any rap or hip-hop personally, but the above is true for all forms of music.

If that's the case, why is VNV Nation consistently one of the most, if not the most popular German electronica bands, insanely popular in the rest of Europe, having a huge underground following in the US, and being a stable in any alternative nightclub DJ's mix, despite having some of the most complex arrangements and lyrics in their songs? As was pointed out, 'simple' music is not the only thing that sells with the average Joe.

Without some statistical information on musical taste and demographics, that argument isn't especially strong. Consider:

"If that's the case, why is Beethoven consistently one of the most popular German composers, popular in Europe, the Americas, and Asia, and being a staple of any orchestra's or chamber ensemble's repertoire, despite his work employing complex melodic and thematic elements? As was pointed out, 'simple' music etc. etc."

None of this is untrue, but is misleading in light of the fact that the share of listeners for 'classical' music is far smaller than the share of listeners for pop. Without establishing that electronica is a majority genre, your argument runs afoul of the same problem.

Oni Koneko Damien wrote:

The Vortex Empire wrote:As far as music in general goes, the most popular artists will usually be the ones who pump out the worst, least complex music. Average Joe doesn't want to have to think to process his music, so the simpler the better. Then the simpler artists get more wealthy, allowing them to advertise their music more, and so on.

I don't listen to any rap or hip-hop personally, but the above is true for all forms of music.

If that's the case, why is VNV Nation consistently one of the most, if not the most popular German electronica bands, insanely popular in the rest of Europe, having a huge underground following in the US, and being a stable in any alternative nightclub DJ's mix, despite having some of the most complex arrangements and lyrics in their songs? As was pointed out, 'simple' music is not the only thing that sells with the average Joe.

A more basic example of this is Metallica. When their songs were longer and just jammed in more shit and were generally more complex they were at their peak. When they began to simplify with the Black album, their popularity began to wain.

Black was still hugely popular, and had a number of great songs on it. I think people started differentiating between old school Metallica and new school with the release of Load.

(Justice for All was their best album though)

wolveraptor wrote:

Havok wrote:

The industry does not let rappers age gracefully, unlike rock.

Did you really just say that?

Laugh all you want, but AC/DC's members are literally senior citizens, and their tours still sell out, and their albums still sell in the millions (despite being unavailable digitally). Then there's Neil Young, who was staying relevant well into the late 80s, even though he was born in fucking WW2.

Hell, half the bands that trendy young hipsters like today are full of old guys (Coldplay, Radiohead, etc.). You really don't see that with hip hop. Jay-Z might be the closest thing we have to that. And then of course, there's Ice T (the closest thing hip hop has to an active senior citizen), who tells teenagers to "eat a dick" on the interwebz. I mean, he has an acting career, so that's something, but still.

Ice Cube, Dr Dre, Run DMC, KRS1, Too Short... I can go on. It's not even really something you can gauge yet though as rap is only around 30 years old.

Rock and Roll itself, not just the music, but the lifestyle, does not generally lend to aging gracefully.

Stofsk wrote:Black was still hugely popular, and had a number of great songs on it. I think people started differentiating between old school Metallica and new school with the release of Load.

(Justice for All was their best album though)

Aw silly Australians. You guys just get everything by message in a bottle 10 years later.
No, it was definitely after the Black album. The original fans got pissed because of bringing in Bob Rock and the subsequent more broad based appeal he brought to the group and their music. Not to mention the hordes of new fans (because it did simplify so much) that thought Metallica had just burst onto the scene.