WWII Question...

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Post by K. A. Pital »

Alexian Cale wrote:So... German strategists were superior to those of the Allies?
German tacticians were, at the first time. German strategic planning was an oxymoron. Their understanding of grand strategy proved to be a total failure when they attacked consequently countries of greater fighting ability than their own, initially failing to achieve their goals and ultimately suffering a crushing defeat.
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The Soviets were working on the "Deep Exploitation" doctrine prior to the "Great Purge" where Stalin shot just about any officer that showed too much creativity.
Stalin shot some of the deep-operation backers in the higher generalitee since he suspected them of a coup. The remainder of the higher generalitee, however, continued to develop the mechanized forces strike group ideas even further into the future. Zhukov indeed was too far to be suspected by Stalin of any coup, which made him a favourable candidate for "hotspot" warfare later on.

For starters - Germans were very heavily investing into industrial machinery. By this, they outmatched most of Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union. But on the whole, their war-driven corporatist economy was going to shit.

Could Germans, on their own, defeat any of the main Allies?
1) USSR - not.
2) US - definetely not.
3) Britain - not.
Germany had a crap navy so defeating either Britain or US is out of the question. Defeating the USSR is only possible if Germany is several times smarter, faster employs perpetual mobilization. Even then, it's hardly possible under the circumstances.

So, Germany was doomed frm the start when they decided to go to war with everyone.
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Post by FSTargetDrone »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Tanks with snorkels are not that unusual really. Every single Russian tank since the T-34 has had the ability to snorkel, and they carry the things around at all times. For training the Russians even had a special oversized snorkel that went over the commanders hatch, so that in the event of a engine stall the crew could simply climb out, before divers went down to hook up tow cables. The US and some other European armies also tested snorts for tanks, but they never caught on. But then, no one else besides Russia has so many huge rivers to cross during realistic operations.
I'll be damned if I can find a picture online, but in one of my books, there's a picture of a German Leopard II that is fully underwater, with the commander perched on top of a collapsible tube so he can guide the vehicle through the water.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Both the Leopard I and Leopard II had the ability to accept a snorkel, but it was not normally issued or trained with in peacetime. The US Army tested snorkels on the M48 and M60 tanks; I don’t think the equipment was type classified. I’m sure everyone who could build tanks must have tested one at some point or another.

The main problem is that safety aside, snorkel operations require divers to inspect the river bottom first, and you need bulldozers or explosives to prepare entrances and exits. That means if you want a realistic snorkel capability you need to be extensively trained and prepared for it, and only the Soviets ever did that. They had good reason, given the many rivers of West Germany.
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Re: WWII Question...

Post by thejester »

Alexian Cale wrote:It seems to me that they couldn't have fought as long and as well as they have unless they were pretty damn powerful (rivaling its enemies).

Essentially: Was Nazi Germany -- militaristically speaking -- the strongest nation during WWII?
No.

As explained below by phongn and Skimmer, Germany started off on the front foot (so to speak) economically, having been preparing for war considerably longer than its neighbours. It also had an individual warmaking superiority over them and pissed all over its largest initial military rival demographically (something like 2:1 in 1939).

In terms of actual military superiority, though? Not even close. Certainly between 1939-1942 it was, yet even ignoring economic factors the Allies had figured out the German formula and trumped it by late 1942, as evidenced by Stalingrad and El Alamein. These victories ensured that the Allies could capitalise on their rempant economic superiority, and by 1944 there was little doubt of Germany's defeat barring political hanky-panky. Despite the grave fears the U-Boat campaign gave Allied planners, by the height of the Battle of the Atlantic American yards were literally putting ships into the water faster than the U-Boats could sink them, even as improved escort numbers, escort carriers, emergence of new technologies such as HF/DF, improvement of escort tactics and Engima turned the tide. In the air, the Luftwaffe was descively defeated in the Battle of Britain and was never close to winning, despite the popualr myths to the contrary (see The Most Dangerous Enemy by Stephen Bungay for an explanation of this); the build up of the CBO in 1943 set the stage for a decisive showdown and Allied economic superiority, poor German procurement and good Allied tactics ensured the decisive destruction of the Luftwaffe (and eventually Germany) by mid-1944.

The story on the ground is a bit different; the Germans established and maintained a tactical superiority early in the war and kept ithroughout; even as the quality of German troops decline, the core of NCOs and officers established by the pre-war Reichsheer was never really destroyed and gave the German Army the remarkable recuperative powers it enjoyed throughout the war and as demonstrated so graphically in September 1944. This was also helped by the way in which, again in contrast to the air and sea battles, German ground technology greatly complemented the role the Heer was forced to play. In contrast, the British and US armies remained firmly at the bottom of the priority list behind the navies and air forces, and while undoubtedley superior in some areas (artillery, for example) and unfairly maligned in others (mobile operations), I think it'd be fair to say their war records were less impressive than the Germans. In the East, however, the Red Army - despite the disasters of 1941-42 - went from being a clearly inferior force to one that by 1944-45 could sweep aside entire German Army Groups before penetrating hundreds of kilometres into the opposition rear. By this stage, even if still (arguably) not tactically superior to German forces (and this varied wildly depending on the units engaged), they were clearly operationally superior.

So no, Germany didn't have the most powerful military of the war. Its army, certainly, achieved some fairly amazing military coups, and despite a variety of handicaps well out of his own control the average German soldier fought hard for years in the face of an ever-increasing hopelessness; but by the end of the war the Red Army was undoubtedley the most powerful on Earth, and the USN and the USAAF were simply so far ahead of the next (the RN and RAF, respectively), with the US having such an amazing logistical network, that the US clearly possessed the most powerful military on Earth.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

By this stage, even if still (arguably) not tactically superior to German forces (and this varied wildly depending on the units engaged), they were clearly operationally superior.
By that time, they were IMHO superior to the Germans in both tactical matters and unit composition. Our strong Tank Army units were one of the most balanced in terms of armor/infantry/artillery support that the war ever saw.
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Post by thejester »

We're talking tactical skill here, not unit composition - even then, I'm not sure how you can proclaim the tank army the superior to a US one, given that they too had the 1:1:1 balance of armour/infantry/artillery while the average US infantry division brought considerably more firepower to the party than it Soviet counterpart (to be fair, a reflection of the different wars they were meant to fight). Even though the natural attrition of the war and Nazi meddling served to badly attrite the superiority of the Heer, the same problems applied to the Red Army - the junior officer corps in particular was always being badly attrited through combat, preventing the accumulation of tactical nous even as operational ability soared.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

thejester wrote:I'm not sure how you can proclaim the tank army the superior to a US one, given that they too had the 1:1:1 balance of armour/infantry/artillery
I'm not sure about U.S. ones, fairly, because I'm not that accustomed with US ORBATs for 1944 tank divisions/corps.
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Post by thejester »

I can't give exact numbers on tanks etc, (roughly 200+ Shermans and Sturts) but it basically consisted of an armoured regiment, an armoured infantry regiment and a self-propelled artillery regiment divided into three combat commands (CCA, CCB and CCR) of one battalion each, as well as signals, cavalry, engineers etc.

In many ways it's comparing apples and oranges though. The obvious difference is that while tank corps would operate independently as the armoured component of rifle formations, they would also be concentrated into the 6 tank armies, each with 400-500 tanks each, for major penetration operations. This reflected wider Soviet ideas of concentration of force, which were mirrored in the structure of rifle divisions, additional support units, and the raising of fortified districts. The US Army never really saw this need, so armoured divisions generally operated independently or with their CCs under infantry division/corps control. For the same reason, infantry divisions brought a lot more firepower to the table than their Soviet counterparts, because they were all expected to be able to undertake relatively independent offensive operations.
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Post by lord Martiya »

Stas Bush wrote:So, Germany was doomed frm the start when they decided to go to war with everyone.
Not with Poland (overwhelming German numbers and land materials), Norway (see 'Poland') or France (damn, I read that some French soldiers escaped when they heared the engines of THEIR OWN TANKS!!! And even without this, I seriosly doubt that they were capable to resist).
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

thejester wrote:I can't give exact numbers on tanks etc, (roughly 200+ Shermans and Sturts) but it basically consisted of an armoured regiment, an armoured infantry regiment and a self-propelled artillery regiment divided into three combat commands (CCA, CCB and CCR) of one battalion each, as well as signals, cavalry, engineers etc.

In many ways it's comparing apples and oranges though. The obvious difference is that while tank corps would operate independently as the armoured component of rifle formations, they would also be concentrated into the 6 tank armies, each with 400-500 tanks each, for major penetration operations. This reflected wider Soviet ideas of concentration of force, which were mirrored in the structure of rifle divisions, additional support units, and the raising of fortified districts. The US Army never really saw this need, so armoured divisions generally operated independently or with their CCs under infantry division/corps control. For the same reason, infantry divisions brought a lot more firepower to the table than their Soviet counterparts, because they were all expected to be able to undertake relatively independent offensive operations.
Probably more necessary in the East as the Russians had to fight well-entrenched Germans, and large tank armies as well. There was a lot more territory to retake in the East than in the West and a lot more fighting since 75% of the Wehrmarcht was concentrated there. A typical operation often required lots of units to work in cohesion, hence the organisation of the Red Army into several Fronts. Pretty much in line with the Deep Operation philosophy.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

lord Martiya wrote:Not with Poland (overwhelming German numbers and land materials), Norway (see 'Poland') or France (damn, I read that some French soldiers escaped when they heared the engines of THEIR OWN TANKS!!! And even without this, I seriosly doubt that they were capable to resist).
Indeed German aquisitions in Europe went relatively well - Austria, Czechoslovakia... but when they infringed on British interests, i.e. Poland, Norway - they were fucked. That simple.
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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Probably more necessary in the East as the Russians had to fight well-entrenched Germans, and large tank armies as well.
I'd argue it was probably more appropriate, rather than necessary. Compare situations in late June 1944, when the battle for Normandy had begun in ernest and and BAGRATION was about to start. The American armies faced a variety of German formations ranging from elite FJ to outright poor Ost units. The bocage provided excellent defensive terrain, amplified the advantages German units had in automatic weapons and mortars, nullified US mobility and severely complicated the use of supporting firepower. It became a war of small infantry units, and that was a war in which the fundamental strengths of the German army came to the for. In the eastern part of the front, the British and Canadians were facing what could have been the most formidable collection of German units assembled since the Kursk battles (admittedley not saying much). 12 SS Panzer Hitlerjugend, 2 SS Panzer Das Reich, 1 SS Panzer Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, 9 SS Panzer, 10 SS Panzer and 21st Panzer were all facing Second Army at the end of June, and the results of this massive concentration of firepower can be seen in the Epsom and Goodwood battles.

In contrast, German battalions in Belorussia were so thinly spread they were reduced to holding a series of strongpoints with patrols in between, and virtually all the armour on the Eastern Front was in the south. It was a situation much more suitable for the deep operations than that in the West, where the narrowness of the bridgehead, the nature of the terrain and the inexperience of the Allied troops made a battle of attrition the natural result.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

thejester wrote:In contrast, German battalions in Belorussia were so thinly spread they were reduced to holding a series of strongpoints with patrols in between, and virtually all the armour on the Eastern Front was in the south.
Germans had to defend a wider front, but also the Soviet forces had to advance on a wider front. And German command fucked up badly when "Bagration" started, since it was in the exactly same position as the Soviet cmmand in 1941, but reverse - German intelligence was totally unable to foresee the attack vectors. It resulted in the Germans moving their armored units into Belorussia with the start of Belorussian operation, but when Visla-Sandomir operation started, they had to remove some of the units back- which they didn't manage to do in time, and were crushed.
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Stas Bush wrote:
thejester wrote:In contrast, German battalions in Belorussia were so thinly spread they were reduced to holding a series of strongpoints with patrols in between, and virtually all the armour on the Eastern Front was in the south.
Germans had to defend a wider front, but also the Soviet forces had to advance on a wider front. And German command fucked up badly when "Bagration" started, since it was in the exactly same position as the Soviet cmmand in 1941, but reverse - German intelligence was totally unable to foresee the attack vectors. It resulted in the Germans moving their armored units into Belorussia with the start of Belorussian operation, but when Visla-Sandomir operation started, they had to remove some of the units back- which they didn't manage to do in time, and were crushed.
Except that's more of an advantage to the Red Army as it become increasingly mobile and a bigger disadvantage to a Germany Army that's becoming less mobile. It's worth noting that in June 1944 both the Soviets and the Western Allies had sold the dummy to the Germans, with the Fifteenth Army twiddling its thumbs in the Pas-de-Calais and the panzers moving into AGS. But where that gave a huge operational advantage to the Red Army, who could concentrate overwhelming force against a largely static German force, the advantage was less to the Western Allies. Even having drawn off such a large amount of German firepower, they still faced overwhelming firepower on a narrow front, with no room for maneuvre. The end result were operations like Epsom, Goodwood and the St Lo/Hill 192 battles which were largely attritional and in which Allied material superiority was not as pronounced as the Soviets was against Army Group Centre.
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Re: WWII Question...

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Alexian Cale wrote:I'm sorry, I didn't know where a question like this would go. I find WWII fascinating, but I've been curious as to the power of Nazi Germany. I can't find a single, supercredible source that explictly states how Germany compared to other countries at the time of World War II.
Try the US Strategic Bombing Survey (Usually quoted as USSBS). It had a lot of detail about the Nazi and Japanese war machines and what the US did about them.
I've always assumed Germany was, at least, as strong as any individual nation on the planet, since it seems to me they practically fought against the Allies in Europe pretty much on their own.
in general, assumptions are dangerous things; they get people killed. Reading the rest of the thread, I'd guess that belief has been pretty throughly exploded by now. I'd add a couple more things.

Equipment cycles. An army starts off with obsolete gear, it decides to re-equip. It designs and/or selects its new gear at a specific time; therefore the technology of that gear is determined by the year in which the decision was made. That equipment is mass-produced and equips the armed forces - trapping them in technology of a specific year. A t a given point, the armed forces have their new equipment that represents that technology. Their rivals have technology form an earlier era and are outclassed. So they start to re-equip. By now, time has passed, technology has improved and a new generation of equipment is available so when they re-equip, they do so to a slightly later, slightly higher standard. That makes the equipment of the first country obsolescent so they start the cycle again.

In other words, the cycle goes Obsolescence - Superiority - inferiority - obsolescence.

Germany started its equipment cycle earlier than the allies therefore gained the superiority part first and then proceeded down the rear end of the cycle. We can see all sorts of examples of that, aircraft engine power, guns, ships, you name it. The German equipment cycle meant that their equipment peaked in 1940-41, the allied equipment cycle means they peaked in 1944-45.

Strategic Initiative In grand strategy, the attacker always has the initiative because he can pick the time and the place of an attack. Germany never took the whole of Europe on simultaneously, their strategic aim was to pick countries off one by one, defeating each with a short war. That worked until they ran into two countries that refused to fold, Russia and the UK. Germany was promptly doomed. Germany didn't have strategists, they had gamblers who went to a roulette wheel, staked everything on a black and let it ride. They may have won a few times but the odds favor the house and they were going to lose it all sometime.
My social study books and stuff have said that the German military was the best on the planet, outstripping Britain and France and Russia and the US, individually.
You need new social studies books.
It seems to me that they couldn't have fought as long and as well as they have unless they were pretty damn powerful (rivaling its enemies).
False assumption. Once they started to collapse they folded pretty fast, 18 months or thereabouts. The Russian Army killed the Germany Army, the British and Americans destroyed everything else.
Essentially: Was Nazi Germany -- militaristically speaking -- the strongest nation during WWII?
Not even close. The USA was the strongest and most powerful nation in the world in the 1940s (and still is), followed by Russia, Britain and Japan. In that order.

Just a last thought for you. Two thirds of all the aircraft engines built in the world during the 1940s came from American factories.
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Post by Stuart »

Stas Bush wrote: German strategic planning was an oxymoron. Their understanding of grand strategy proved to be a total failure when they attacked consequently countries of greater fighting ability than their own, initially failing to achieve their goals and ultimately suffering a crushing defeat.
I agree. German strategic planning was based on two "commandments"

Commandment the First The enemy shall do everything we expect, when we expect and how we expect and shall cooperate fully with any and all plans we may make

Commandment the Second The enemy shall surrender at a time and place of our choosing and shall not continue to resist beyond any point we consider to be inconvenient.

If the Nazis took on anybody who did not sign on to those agreements, they were truly screwed. Britain was the first example, Russia was the second.
So, Germany was doomed frm the start when they decided to go to war with everyone.
Again I agree but I would add that what doomed them was that none of their "great strategists" bothered to ask "why are we taking on everybody at once?"

Tale from the crypt for you. Back in the 1980s, there was a lot of debate about reorganizing the U.S. armed forces. One proposal, much favored by a handful of academics, was a system that was essentially the German General Staff system. About half way through their presentation (heavily larded with paens of praise for the Germans) , the audience started chanting "Two-nil, two-nil. two-nil." When said academics stopped and asked what was going on, one of the audience stood up and said (paraphrased). "we've fought your precious German General Staff twice this century. Two-nil boys."
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Post by wautd »

Sea Skimmer wrote: Overall German military strength is in general vastly overrated
What could be the cause of this? I may be wrong but I think it mostly originated by the allied soldiers on the ground. Since they had to deal on the tactical level, they were up against a lot of advantages the Germans had, while being oblivious to the overall strategic situation.
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Post by Stuart »

wautd wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote: Overall German military strength is in general vastly overrated
What could be the cause of this? I may be wrong but I think it mostly originated by the allied soldiers on the ground. Since they had to deal on the tactical level, they were up against a lot of advantages the Germans had, while being oblivious to the overall strategic situation.
A lot of it is the residual of wartime propaganda. The Germans portrayed themselves as supermen so they could scare their enemies into surrender. The British also like to portray their enemies as being incredibly powerful, that way they look very good if they beat them and have an alibi if they lose. So there was a congruence of interests.

In fact its all smoke and mirrors. For example, throughout WW2, most German units used horse-drawn carts for logistics and pulled their guns with teams of horses - just like WW1. German ships were another good example; go around the net and count the sites worshipping Bismarck for example (ignoring the fact she got sunk). Or Graf Spee and the pocket battleships in general (ignoring the fact she got shot up by three much inferior ships and then the snivelling coward Langsdorf blew her up rather than fight). All smoke and mirrors.

Then there are the Nazi fan-boys. Less said about them the better.
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Post by PeZook »

wautd wrote: What could be the cause of this? I may be wrong but I think it mostly originated by the allied soldiers on the ground. Since they had to deal on the tactical level, they were up against a lot of advantages the Germans had, while being oblivious to the overall strategic situation.
Wartime propaganda, which later found it's way into history books. Also, simplistic minds of people reading said history books and going "Man, they almost conquered the world!!!"

If you look at some history books, their overviews of WWII always give the impression the Germans were this close to winning everything, which is obviously wartime propaganda.

Not to mention...nobody likes to lose against idiots, so countries conquered in WWII spun the myth up some more. This way, they don't look bad for losing (I'm looking at you, France. And Poland, too :) ).

You can actually see that in the Nazi fanboys when they jizz all over their favorite toys - when they claim the Type XXI U-Boat, for example, would've instantly changed the course of the war LOLZ!!!, they're citing propaganda, nothing more.

In reality, of course, the Type XXI was a shoddily made deathtrap that didn't meet any of it's hype. And I love pointing it out to idiot fanboys, and watch them squeal to explain how a u-boat immune to aircraft could've been sunk by said aircraft almost immediately after leaving port :D
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Post by K. A. Pital »

PeZook wrote:In reality, of course, the Type XXI was a shoddily made deathtrap that didn't meet any of it's hype.
Heh. What's even more interesting is that U-boats, no matter how good, could not have changed the course of the war, since U-boats miserably failed at sinking allied tonnage (Clay Blair cites their truly atrocious total record - something like 0,9%). U-boats are not a weapon of force projection, they failed to prevent any of the numerous naval landings, failed to cut off shipping and failed to destroy opposing blue-water navies.

And I tell you why, before the age of nuclear subs but after the era of primitive anti-submarine warfare, a 100%-sumbarine strategy was shit. Which was Germany's strategy in WWII, since it lacked any chance at hitting the ocean with a true blue-water navy. How the fuck German planners thought to realistically deal with Britain remains beyond me. Even Halder knew from the start that it was a stupid adventure since the industries could not even provide LANDING CRAFT in sufficient numbers and required many months to build them up, while YEARS were needed to build a powerful navy... :lol:
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K. A. Pital
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Stuart wrote:In fact its all smoke and mirrors. For example, throughout WW2, most German units used horse-drawn carts for logistics and pulled their guns with teams of horses - just like WW1.
So did many European armies (USSR for instance, was even less motorized). But the true strength of German motorization was in organization, whereas large masses of support craft were attached to mobile armored units, while IDs remained with whatever mobility they had initially.
But the Nazi fanboys, instead of pointing to the organizational superiority of the German land units, or the Germans' strategic initiative (choosing at which point to attack and how), start the "PANZER + STUKA = BLITZKRIEG" chant which has little to do with reality.
Stuart wrote:German ships were another good example; go around the net and count the sites worshipping Bismarck for example (ignoring the fact she got sunk).
The Bismarck, while not a bad ship, could not prevent Germany's utter failure on the seas. Which came from a larger problem - the RN and US' naval capabilities outmatched the Germans so badly that the Kriegsmarine was and remained a joke until the very end of the war. Raiders and submarines are nothing but a weapon of the extremely weak against the strong (and they failed at their task). Nowhere did the Germans even dare to think about confronting the Royal Navy. Comparing the overall strength of the Kriegsmarine to opposing Navies makes the Germans look like dogs barking on a lion.
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Post by fgalkin2 »

Just to nitpick: from what I gather, Bismark WAS a bad ship. Quite a terrible ship in fact. It was essentially a WWI design, with all the flaws left in.

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Post by K. A. Pital »

fgalkin2 wrote:Just to nitpick: from what I gather, Bismark WAS a bad ship. Quite a terrible ship in fact. It was essentially a WWI design, with all the flaws left in.
How is a line battleship with capabilities roughly on par with a King George V, even if less protected and with worse radars than the British - that was the situation for everyone from Japanese to Germans to Americans - be counted as "bad"? :? It was not the uberwaffe idiots paint it to be, but despite it's flaws, it was a good raider-role ship.

The concept of "fleet in being" made the construction of Bismarck and Tirpitz terribly important for Germany. Of course, their ship engineering could not make some superior elements of British ships, like radars/fire control, and the protection was bad in some places, but even with a medium quality battleship you can get into the "fleet in being" game. Those battleships, when moved from port to port, often tied a large portion of the Royal Navy in pursuit or guard of them.

Remember, all German ships were destined to be raiders, not floating fortresses like Yamato to take on entire war fleets of opponents. They fit that role well.
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Post by petesampras »

Stas Bush wrote:
fgalkin2 wrote:Just to nitpick: from what I gather, Bismark WAS a bad ship. Quite a terrible ship in fact. It was essentially a WWI design, with all the flaws left in.
How is a line battleship with capabilities roughly on par with a King George V, even if less protected and with worse radars than the British - that was the situation for everyone from Japanese to Germans to Americans - be counted as "bad"? :? It was not the uberwaffe idiots paint it to be, but despite it's flaws, it was a good raider-role ship.

The concept of "fleet in being" made the construction of Bismarck and Tirpitz terribly important for Germany. Of course, their ship engineering could not make some superior elements of British ships, like radars/fire control, and the protection was bad in some places, but even with a medium quality battleship you can get into the "fleet in being" game. Those battleships, when moved from port to port, often tied a large portion of the Royal Navy in pursuit or guard of them.

Remember, all German ships were destined to be raiders, not floating fortresses like Yamato to take on entire war fleets of opponents. They fit that role well.
The idea that the Bismarck was designed as a raider is utterly absurd. There is no remotely logical reason for a convoy raider to field 8 * 15 inch guns and have a 13 inch armour belt.

Bismarck was a battleship. She was given guns and armour capable of fighting other battleships. She may have been sent on a convoy raiding mission, but there is no way she was designed for that as her primary purpose.

The King George V class were a very poor design, so the fact she was roughly equal is not that great a feat. The ancient Rodney and Nelson had more firepower than Bismarck and the best battleships of the Japanese and US were vastly superior.
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Post by Black Admiral »

petesampras wrote:The King George V class were a very poor design, so the fact she was roughly equal is not that great a feat.
The KGV-class wasn't that bad, given the limitations placed on the design, and they were lighter than Bismarck (by several thousand tons IIRC); in fact most of the complaints I've heard about the KGVs are directed at their main battery, not the design in and of itself.
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