War Czar Considers Draft.

[Lonestar]

All I can say is that I'll be draft age within three years. I can only hope that either the war ends before that or the draft gets shot down first.

It warms my heart to read cowards quake at such prospects.

"They can't draft me! I'm a Conscientious Objector!"

"A what?"

"A coward."

Seriously, the man's job is to provide honest proposals on how to run the war, and we're knocking him for it? I mean, he didn't even initiate the draft discussion...the article makes it look like someone asked him about it. What's he going to say? "durr...nope, we don't consider all options when we look at manning."

[Knife]

All I can say is that I'll be draft age within three years. I can only hope that either the war ends before that or the draft gets shot down first.

It warms my heart to read cowards quake at such prospects.

Lol, nice to see you tread where none dare. I thought it was a bit cowardly too, yet decided not to bring it up. Way to point out the elephant in the room.

[Turin]

All I can say is that I'll be draft age within three years. I can only hope that either the war ends before that or the draft gets shot down first.

It warms my heart to read cowards quake at such prospects.

Of course, because anyone who doesn't want to be drafted must be a coward.

Now, I'm well past draft age at this point, but damned if I would have been happy about involuntarily servitude at the hands of my government. As someone who's been (is?) in the military, I'd think you'd appreciate the idea that you don't want a bunch grabastic dopes like chitoryu serving with you, or someone like me that probably thinks that whatever I've been drafted for was a Very Bad Idea.

[Broomstick]

You and over four million people per year will reach the age of 18. That's the stupidity of these draft proposals, that unless they are very limited or narrowly defined, four million-ish men and women reach age 18 per year. That is a shit load of people to train, equip and find something to do with and that's PER YEAR.

Granted, you could pare that down a bit, disabled, smart college kids who could benifit in other ways, special people with powerful daddys. But still, even if your generous at axe out ten percent of that, three and half milion per year is an aweful lot to absorb.

They don't draft everyone who turns 18! They decide how many they need/can equip, then they select among the available pool that many draftees.

If I recall correctly (which I many not, being quite young at the time), last time we had a draft young men were assigned a number (I think it was based on their birthdate) and when it came time to "process" more candidates they selected numbers as in a lottery until they had the number they wanted.

After which such young men reported to a designated local for medical exam and various evaluations and were assigned as found appropriate. It was assumed that a certain percentage would not pass the physical exam, etc., so actually they drafted more than they wound up accepting.

At no time was the entire 18-14 year old population inducted or mobilized.

If we have a draft again I expect we'd see a similar system, although the automatic deferment for college students might need to be eliminated, given that a much higher percentage of people go to college now, and we need smart people in the military. No doubt we will also see corruption and "daddy's influence" again, too.

[Lonestar]

Lol, nice to see you tread where none dare. I thought it was a bit cowardly too, yet decided not to bring it up. Way to point out the elephant in the room.

I take my joy where I can get it.

Of course, because anyone who doesn't want to be drafted must be a coward. Rolling Eyes

Hell, I don't think I would want to be drafted too. Difference is I wouldn't whine about it.

Now, I'm well past draft age at this point, but damned if I would have been happy about involuntarily servitude at the hands of my government. As someone who's been (is?) in the military, I'd think you'd appreciate the idea that you don't want a bunch grabastic dopes like chitoryu serving with you, or someone like me that probably thinks that whatever I've been drafted for was a Very Bad Idea.

So is your sole concern that you think the current war is unjust? Or all you against the Draft no matter what's going on.

Say we were, oh, Finland. Finland isn't exactly running around on crusades and whatnot. Would you "stick it to the man" to avoid being conscripted in peacetime? (This is not an attack, I'm trying to figure out what your stance is)

And there are plenty of grabastic dopes like Chitoryu in the military without a draft. We call those "end of monthers"(the guys picked when the recruiter needs to meet his quota on the 29th of the month).

[Flagg]

All I can say is that I'll be draft age within three years. I can only hope that either the war ends before that or the draft gets shot down first.

It warms my heart to read cowards quake at such prospects.

If we were fighting a just war and I was needed (we'd be in really bad fucking shape at that point ) , I wouldn't have an issue with being drafted. You wanna draft my ass for Iraq? I'll be in Soviet Canukistan until the pardons roll out.

[brianeyci]

More like college has been diluted to mean almost nothing, so if you exclude college you're probably excluding anybody with any lights up there at all. You need a college diploma to do almost anything these days. In other words a college exemption would mean getting the dumbest of the dumb since any boob can sign up at a community college.

And why young men? Why not the old fucks who make the decision to go to war? Sometimes I wish real life was like science fiction, where leaders stepped into a Starfire Wheel and decided the fate of their nations rather than relying on the most vulnerable with little say in the running of the nation to fight their wars for them. Thirty year olds make for far better soldiers than 18 year olds.

An all volunteer army is supposed to be the epitome of the United States, highly trained, highly motivated, highly equipped. They're having trouble giving enough body armor for troops now, so why more soldiers? I would expect casualties to go up orders of magnitude. If you want to show who's boss, yes, march soldiers on foot through the toughest neighborhoods in Baghdad six times a day on patrol. But be ready to swim in blood. Just how many soldiers do you think they can airlift to Ramstein a day? Colbert is right -- if you never leave, you never lose -- but the question for the American people is whether they want to invest two or three generations of young people and make Iraq the 51st state. If not, then it's not worth it and you're just making Iraqi lives miserable.

As for a personal choice of whether to enter the draft or not, Broomstick is right it's an all or nothing. And right now in Canada we have a center of right party in government, sympathetic to the Bush administration, so don't expect a free ride. If I was an American and truly worried about a draft, I would volunteer for the military and get a choice pick, unless I wanted to abandon my country forever. If I was 16 and American I would not worry about such things. Literally you will have a whole different take on life in just a short couple years.

[Knife]

They don't draft everyone who turns 18! They decide how many they need/can equip, then they select among the available pool that many draftees.

If I recall correctly (which I many not, being quite young at the time), last time we had a draft young men were assigned a number (I think it was based on their birthdate) and when it came time to "process" more candidates they selected numbers as in a lottery until they had the number they wanted.

After which such young men reported to a designated local for medical exam and various evaluations and were assigned as found appropriate. It was assumed that a certain percentage would not pass the physical exam, etc., so actually they drafted more than they wound up accepting.

At no time was the entire 18-14 year old population inducted or mobilized.

If we have a draft again I expect we'd see a similar system, although the automatic deferment for college students might need to be eliminated, given that a much higher percentage of people go to college now, and we need smart people in the military. No doubt we will also see corruption and "daddy's influence" again, too.

Yes yes, I'm aware they cull the number down. However, in all the examples I've read all they've ever said in their news release or proposed bills was a general draft with no mention of any sort of 'need' to fill. All they do is call for a draft.

Quite frankly, if it's based on the need of the military, they need 0 drafties so the point is moot.

As for a personal choice of whether to enter the draft or not, Broomstick is right it's an all or nothing. And right now in Canada we have a center of right party in government, sympathetic to the Bush administration, so don't expect a free ride. If I was an American and truly worried about a draft, I would volunteer for the military and get a choice pick, unless I wanted to abandon my country forever. If I was 16 and American I would not worry about such things. Literally you will have a whole different take on life in just a short couple years.

But one shouldn't be worried about a draft. That's the whole point and has been once a year the last ten years this silly issue gets brought up. It's nothing but fearmongering. The 20% of hardcore Bushites don't have either the balls nor the power to reinstate the draft and even if they did, the impeachment hearings would start the next week. It is political suicide, which is why the bill gets proposed every year for political effect, and the bills sponsers vote against their own shit every year.

[Tanasinn]

It warms my heart to read cowards quake at such prospects.

He's a coward for not wanting to fight in a war started criminally by a bunch of goons who still refuse to tell us why they REALLY did it. He's a coward for not wanting to stand around in a giant sandbox protecting one group of religious fundie fruitcakes while shooting another group of the same thing? He's a coward for wanting no part in an unnecessary war that is nothing more than a way to throw lives on both sides into the grinder?

[Tanasinn]

Ghetto edit: first sentence was supposed to be a question, not a statement.

[Turin]

So is your sole concern that you think the current war is unjust? Or all you against the Draft no matter what's going on.

Say we were, oh, Finland. Finland isn't exactly running around on crusades and whatnot. Would you "stick it to the man" to avoid being conscripted in peacetime? (This is not an attack, I'm trying to figure out what your stance is)

I don't think I'm opposed to a draft in some kind of general principled sense, particularly if it were a draft for a "defense of the mainland" sort of military branch (like the National Guard is supposed to be in the US). I suppose if I woke up one day and by "act of Q" I ruled the country, I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of mandatory service, with many non-military options also being widely available -- public works projects or whatever. There are obvious practical concerns there, but no, I'm not in general principle.

I have a problem with the idea of a draft in the US because a) of the absurd logistics involved in a general peacetime draft as has often been proposed, and b) because we have a history of getting into shit we shouldn't. I frankly don't trust my government and my fellow countrymen to steer us in the right direction.

[General Zod]

It warms my heart to read cowards quake at such prospects.

He's a coward for not wanting to fight in a war started criminally by a bunch of goons who still refuse to tell us why they REALLY did it. He's a coward for not wanting to stand around in a giant sandbox protecting one group of religious fundie fruitcakes while shooting another group of the same thing? He's a coward for wanting no part in an unnecessary war that is nothing more than a way to throw lives on both sides into the grinder?

Except Chitty didn't say why he didn't want to get drafted other than not wanting anything to do with the military whatsoever. Not exactly a strong ethics system there. Now me, I doubt they'd draft given I have a few too many medical issues and I'm probably just past the desired age anyway.

[Lonestar]

If we were fighting a just war and I was needed (we'd be in really bad fucking shape at that point ) , I wouldn't have an issue with being drafted. You wanna draft my ass for Iraq? I'll be in Soviet Canukistan until the pardons roll out.

Zod has already commented on it, but I'm not sure how you could take "I'm going to hide in a cabin I don't want anything to do with the military" as anything but cowardice. Even though he already claims to have terrible asthma, in which case the draft board would probably give him a downcheck anyway. He just opted to take the squealing "I'm too pretty for prison!" route.

He's a coward for not wanting to fight in a war started criminally by a bunch of goons who still refuse to tell us why they REALLY did it. He's a coward for not wanting to stand around in a giant sandbox protecting one group of religious fundie fruitcakes while shooting another group of the same thing? He's a coward for wanting no part in an unnecessary war that is nothing more than a way to throw lives on both sides into the grinder?

See above.

I don't think I'm opposed to a draft in some kind of general principled sense, particularly if it were a draft for a "defense of the mainland" sort of military branch (like the National Guard is supposed to be in the US). I suppose if I woke up one day and by "act of Q" I ruled the country, I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of mandatory service, with many non-military options also being widely available -- public works projects or whatever. There are obvious practical concerns there, but no, I'm not in general principle.

I have a problem with the idea of a draft in the US because a) of the absurd logistics involved in a general peacetime draft as has often been proposed, and b) because we have a history of getting into shit we shouldn't. I frankly don't trust my government and my fellow countrymen to steer us in the right direction.

Well, I would support a draft because one way or the other it would bring Iraq(or whatever) to some kind of resolution. Either it would provide enough troops to stabilize Iraq, or it would galvanize the American Public to get us out. I've mentioned my fine upstanding Citizen of a little brother a few times in this forum, and he's one of those guys who refers to Democrats as "defeatocrats" and when told "well, I suppose this means you'll sign up then?" he mumbles something about providing a better service to the country in the private sector(someone has to be a drunken fratboy!)

I'm not opposed to a draft at all, it would bring this to a resolution one way or the other. What pissed me off was that Chitnit over there decided to publically announce he's a coward and doesn't want anything to do with the military. Real winner there.

Incidentally, this occurred to me after the fact:

I'd think you'd appreciate the idea that you don't want a bunch grabastic dopes like chitoryu serving with you,

Presumably a Draft would allow us the ability to tap into a somewhat higher quality personnel pool then most potential recruits. Less in the way of "end of monthers" guys/

[Alex Moon]

Link

Well, that kills the idea he's sensible, I suspect.

No it doesn't. One of the first things that is taught to officers when it comes to the decision making process is that you don't discount anything right away. It certainly does make sense to consider a draft along with any other possible options, since the best option may be the one doesn't appear to be so at first. If policymakers don't wish to pursue it, then that is their choice.

[Wicked Pilot]

The source article for anyone interested in reading the entire interview.

I think it makes sense to certainly consider it, and I can tell you, this has always been an option on the table, but ultimately, this is a policy matter between meeting the demands for the nation's security by one means or another. Today, the current means of the all-volunteer force is serving us exceptionally well. It would be a major policy shift — not actually a military, but a political policy shift to move to some other course.

Spaceballs qoute of the day:

How many draft threads do we got on this forum anyhow?

I knew it, I'm surrounded by draft threads!

Keep posting draft threads, assholes!

[Sidewinder]

I don't think I'm opposed to a draft in some kind of general principled sense, particularly if it were a draft for a "defense of the mainland" sort of military branch (like the National Guard is supposed to be in the US). I suppose if I woke up one day and by "act of Q" I ruled the country, I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of mandatory service, with many non-military options also being widely available -- public works projects or whatever. There are obvious practical concerns there, but no, I'm not in general principle.

Let me guess: You've also read 'Starship Troopers' by Robert A. Heinlein.

But one problem pointed out by a political commentator is, "Who decides which draftees do public works and which draftees end up in the military?" The amount of corruption that would plague the system, with rich people bribing government officials to keep their kids out of the military, would be horrendous.

I have a problem with the idea of a draft in the US because a) of the absurd logistics involved in a general peacetime draft as has often been proposed, and b) because we have a history of getting into shit we shouldn't. I frankly don't trust my government and my fellow countrymen to steer us in the right direction.

Considering the corruption that's rampant in the US government now, that's understandable.

[chitoryu12]

It warms my heart to read cowards quake at such prospects.

Coward? Sorry, but I don't want to have to go through weeks of hell just to either get shot and have my internal organs pulverized or see no action because I'm either away from the war zone or planted in a base somewhere in Europe, meaning that the weeks of torturous training would have been for nothing. You can't call someone a coward for not wanting to be forced into a war, especially one where the country is not in threat of immediate attack.

[chitoryu12]

It warms my heart to read cowards quake at such prospects.

He's a coward for not wanting to fight in a war started criminally by a bunch of goons who still refuse to tell us why they REALLY did it. He's a coward for not wanting to stand around in a giant sandbox protecting one group of religious fundie fruitcakes while shooting another group of the same thing? He's a coward for wanting no part in an unnecessary war that is nothing more than a way to throw lives on both sides into the grinder?

Except Chitty didn't say why he didn't want to get drafted other than not wanting anything to do with the military whatsoever. Not exactly a strong ethics system there. Now me, I doubt they'd draft given I have a few too many medical issues and I'm probably just past the desired age anyway.

Why should I want anything to do with the military in the first place? I'm no soldier. Besides, one of my major flaws is that I have a tendency to wander off in thought, so I would likely miss my orders or end up shooting in the wrong direction.

[General Zod]

It warms my heart to read cowards quake at such prospects.

Coward? Sorry, but I don't want to have to go through weeks of hell just to either get shot and have my internal organs pulverized or see no action because I'm either away from the war zone or planted in a base somewhere in Europe, meaning that the weeks of torturous training would have been for nothing. You can't call someone a coward for not wanting to be forced into a war, especially one where the country is not in threat of immediate attack.

Nobody who gets drafted wants to be in the military. But it makes you look like less of a screeching imbecile if you can post a better reason for objecting to a draft than "I don't want to get shot" and "I'll run away and avoid the drafters regardless of any legal repercussions that might exist". Which is more preferable? Getting turned down due to poor health, getting stuck in a desk job due to poor health, or having a warrant out for your arrest for several years?

[Knife]

Coward? Sorry, but I don't want to have to go through weeks of hell just to either get shot and have my internal organs pulverized or see no action because I'm either away from the war zone or planted in a base somewhere in Europe, meaning that the weeks of torturous training would have been for nothing.

You don't want to be shot nor do something you don't want to do, but you're not a coward...I'm interested on what your definition of 'coward' is.

You can't call someone a coward for not wanting to be forced into a war, especially one where the country is not in threat of immediate attack.

You're right on that one. Political dessent is indeed not being a coward, how ever if part of being apart of a country is being called up in time of need, wheather you agree with it or not, and you don't want to do it because you don't want to be shot or do something you don't want to do; coward seems an appropriate title.

Why should I want anything to do with the military in the first place? I'm no soldier. Besides, one of my major flaws is that I have a tendency to wander off in thought, so I would likely miss my orders or end up shooting in the wrong direction.

The more you write on this subject, the more it seems you leave behind any sense of political dissent and more into the 'I'm scared, the military is tough, I don't want to get hurt' mentality which is again right up the alley of being a coward.

Oddly enough, most people who've been in the military who've posted here dont' want a draft. However, that doesn't mean such blantent behavior can't be called a duck or in this case a chicken.

[DrMckay]

Coward? Sorry, but I don't want to have to go through weeks of hell just to either get shot and have my internal organs pulverized or see no action because I'm either away from the war zone or planted in a base somewhere in Europe, meaning that the weeks of torturous training would have been for nothing.

Wait. You want to "see action" without the potential of getting hurt or killed.

Huh.

In Realityland, we call that "HALO."

[DrMckay]

I just turned 18.

Although not likely to pass, knock on wood *taps head*

This scares me.

I have no desire "see action" or get killed only so the rich can get richer off of the little oil, (and many military production contracts) that remain


If weren't in Iraq, and were instead in, oh, say DARFUR, it is possible that my remaining idealism and dislike for genocidaires of any stripe would overpower my (rather active sense) self preservation.

Stopping genocide personally, as opposed to creating a better market share for Exxon would mean something to me.[/i]

[Admiral Drason]

What makes you special Chit? I'm 20 years old and would be in the immediate pool of draftees. I would most likely be rejected because I have Crohns. But if they need me then I'll serve.

What makes you a coward is that you stand by thinking that military service is so hard and isnt for you while thousands of your peers have and will go into the meat grinder.

Your a coward because you wont man up and take it like every one else. Do you honestly think anyone who joins the military wants to die? Of course not. They do it because they feel it is their duty to serve.

[Stark]

Whoa. 'Man up'? Be forced to go and fight a war with poor training and equipment is 'being a man' now? If people don't want to fight your nation's wars, maybe you should fucking stop instead of press-ganging everyone who isn't famous/rich/political into the army.

If my nation was under attack, I'd have no problem fighting in the army. I *do* have a problem being dragged into some politicians clusterfuck that has no bearing on the safety of my country after the whole fucking world told them it was a stupid idea. Good money after bad, you know?

I'd likely not be used under a draft, but I oppose the idea of a draft to fight a war like Iraq. Once you GET drafted, it's time to put that aside.

[Raesene]

They do it because they feel it is their duty to serve.

No, they do it because they have been told it's their duty to fight - and would be punished if they refused. If most conscript would feel it's their patriotic duty, they'd volunteer anyway with no need for conscription.

While I can see the need for a military, I prefer volunteer service. Better a motivated volunteer who serves willingly with good training and equipment than a conscript force who stay for a year or so where most soldiers don't want to be in the armed forces.
Austria has conscription, and none of my friends or colleagues considered it an enriching experience. Nearly all considered it lost lifetime. I've been 'lucky' and considered unfit due to bad eyesight, and I certainly can sympathise with the desire not to be shot at.