Borg assimilate stardestroyer first? what are their chances?

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

How much? Not enough. They'll have to figure out how it works, what it does, and where everythng is. An SSD is so big, some people might not be able to see all of it in their entire life. Borg technology is way different, and even if they found everything out, it would take them years to build one. Not to mention, different hull materials.

[Master of Ossus]

I'm starting to think that i should have said that the crew was there, and assimilated,

I'm starting to think the Borg might put all their processing power into trying to close the wormhole

It would have made more sense, but still, an SSD does not carry a factory around with it. At the most, it can use spare parts to help repair and maintain the systems that it has. It cannot fabricate its own.

Also, you would need to give the Borg MUCH more time to study the system (like, years). In order for them to be able to build anything of their own, they would need to have years to try and figure out how to build a piece. If you gave a gun, powder, and shot to an Aztec warrior just before the Spanish arrived in the New World, he would probably be able to figure out how to fire the weapon, and how to do some basic maintenance on it. He would NOT be able to build his own firearms. The same thing would happen to the Borg, except that the Borg would be even farther behind. Manufacturing SW technology probably takes a good degree of precision and materials engineering talent. SW can create thin layers of diamonds to protect systems. They can harness neutronium for their armor. They can use "hypermatter" in their reactors, and they use hyperdrives. The Borg have nothing even remotely analogous to any of this technology, and their other systems are likely crude compared to SW ships, if they have even the most basic principles marginally well understood. It would probably take them a decade or so to even figure out how the SSD's systems worked. It might take them a century or more to be able to duplicate even a few of the important systems. Even if the crew were assimilated, the Borg still would take decades learning how to build their own SW technology. The crew knows how their systems work, but most probably have no idea how to fabricate parts, and then they would need the right supplies. The Borg could not supply these materials, and they would probably not be able to acquire them in the ST universe.

[HRogge]

I'm starting to think that i should have said that the crew was there, and assimilated,

This would not change anything. The crew of a SSD does not know how to build an ISD... they don't need to know how a reactor/shield/ect. is working... they only know which components they need to repair the system...

a computer technican needs to know what parts he use for a computer, it's not necessary to knwo exactly how these parts work, you only have to know WHAT they do...

[Omega-13]

NOt sure, if it would take them THAT long, but more than 3 months most likely, the quickest thing I think that they'd be able to figure out is communications, and the hardest would be hypermatter, the stuff just SOUNDS complicated, nevermind what it is capable of

[Master of Ossus]

NOt sure, if it would take them THAT long, but more than 3 months most likely, the quickest thing I think that they'd be able to figure out is communications, and the hardest would be hypermatter, the stuff just SOUNDS complicated, nevermind what it is capable of

Hyperdrive would take a LONG time to figure out. The Borg do not even have a basic theory for how such a drive could work. And it would take them that long to figure it out. How long would it have taken the Chinese in the late eighteenth-century to figure out an F22 Raptor? They couldn't do it for years! Decades! Even centuries! And the F22 is MUCH less advanced to the Chinese of that era than an SSD would be to the Borg.

[TheDarkling]

The Borg dont need to get a big leg up from the SSD simply learn a few advancements and then use the slightly upgraded Cubes plus the SSD to trap and assimilate some ISDs.
Keep repeating until the empire notices you and crushes you (not without some ships loses however).

[Master of Ossus]

The Borg dont need to get a big leg up from the SSD simply learn a few advancements and then use the slightly upgraded Cubes plus the SSD to trap and assimilate some ISDs.
Keep repeating until the empire notices you and crushes you (not without some ships loses however).

So? They would still need a very long time to get anything out of the SSD, and then they would need to learn how to duplicate it. Their "upgraded" cubes would just bounce off of ISDs. There is no way that the Borg could get BOTH the weapons and the shields of the SSD very quickly installed into a large portion of their fleet, and then they are left with either a large fleet of ships that can do damage to an ISD but cannot take more than a few hits each, or a large group of ships that can be hammered on by an ISD but have no firepower. In either case, massive numbers of cubes would be required to take down an ISD. And this ASSUMES that they can get one of the two systems, which would be EXTREMELY unlikely.

[TheDarkling]

Master of Ossus: The cubes absorb fire for the SSD enabling it to take down the ISDs shields without taking damage in return - once the shields are down the Borg begin assimilating the ISDs.

[Master of Ossus]

So.... why wouldn't the ISD just run away, at this point, and come back with a fleet tough enough to destroy the SSD. The cubes are of no consequence.

BTW, you are assuming that the Borg could actually manufacture SW shields. This assumption is based on nothing. You have built your argument as a castle in the air.

[TheDarkling]

I thought the drubbing Mr Bean gave you was enough of a case for shielding.

Why wouldnt the ISD(s) run away - because the cubes could easily surround it and prehaps create some gravity wells which hyper drive doesnt like.

We have proof that the Borg can create singularities (Ref Scorpion Part 1/2) and that they produce a large amount of gravitic distrubace (or some other technobabble).

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The SSD is a complex pieace of tecnology, he's right besides the fact the senaior is much to quick its highly unlikley, Its unusal I'll give you that so I'll try my best

Hmm in three months they should by Borg Quickness just worked out how the SSD makes it go and by then hacked into its computer and figure out how to make it attack other things

They MIGHT be able to get SW style shields up and running, thats a big iffy as we don't know how exactly the shield projectors are built, They sure as heck won't get the weapons as they require specilized machinery and unusal propellants along with the Hyperdrive

Best case senaior the Cubes are all upgraded with SW style sheilds but plan old weapons

Good chance that the Borg can resort to old fasion ramming tatics and hope they have more Cubes than the Empire has ships.
MAYBE they get Hyperdrive too, but its doughtful, its a completly new sphere of tecnology using somthing they have never run into or might not be able to get ahold of to being with(Hypermatter)

I'm looking at a much longer struggle for the Empire but the same outcome

I hadn't watched Scorpion, so I plead no contention for you. Maybe someone like Poe would know.

For your shields, however, Mr. Bean never intended that it is a must or even a probable. What do words like "MIGHT" (in capital letters, at that) and "big iffy" mean to you? He merely suggests that compared to something like a hyperdrive or a solar ionization reactor, they have a greater chance to crudely replicate a shield. As in, say ten times bigger than 0.0001%.

Their only really big difference is how much the Borg power generation limitations would limit them. Mr. Bean is also slightly more optimistic on this issue overall versus say Ossus and I, but not really to the point of real disagreement. And lack of power is hardly the only potential factor stopping the Borg from replicating the SW shields, as Bean agrees in his original argument.

[Mr Bean]

Lemme speak for myself

To quote me eaxctly as I'm the second Formost Expert in the Field of Bean study

The borg out of any single other SW tecnology are most likley to get SW style and prehaps even Power shields

Please not that even SW ISD shields can't stand up to more than three full broad sides from a fellow ISD, Weapon wise there is no way in heck due to the may diffrent tencologys involved PLUS the nessary mining of a whole new type of mineral(Similar to how they could not copy the SSD Hyperdrive thanks to a completly scarsty or prehaps total lack of Hypermatter in ST universe)

As for the Singulates, They may be gravitational but a ISD can Always blind up out of any situation unless you Toss them Five feet away from a Gravtional Force they can get away(Note this is how Inderducter Cruisers work they acutal Force a region of space(Suspected to be a large scalling of the Repluselift tecnology) to a World Type Gravitational situation or in other words if you where EV on a big metal plate you would temporarly(Long as the gernators are running and targeted towards that region of space) you would have a definte *down

Of coures this is all pure speculation but I thought I might want to toss it in to make my post look longer

Seriously though SW and ST Pruposion and Weaponry, are fundmetly diffrent in a big way, Shielding seems to be by all indicators nothing more than a very improved version.

[Master of Ossus]

Bean, I don't think that your analysis of shielding similarities is correct. There are a number of differences that appear to indicate a completely different system.

1. Hull hugging vs. bubble shields. While arguable the hull hugging shields are simply improved systems, this does not appear to be accurate. Note how often shields in ST buckle after taking damage. This is not the case in SW.
2. Frequency modulation. In ST, one can improve the effectiveness of weapons and shields by knowing what frequency your opponent is firing at. This is not so in SW.
3. Most importantly, SW shields ONLY stop energy weapons OR projectiles. There are separate ray shields and particle shields for both jobs, although the two are almost always used in conjunction.

To me, these differences indicate different mannerisms. Also note that the Enterprise D was able to modify its deflector array a number of times, even using it as an offensive weapon against the Borg in BoBW. This is not consistent with SW systems. I disagree with your analysis, Mr. Bean, though I am interested to hear what similarities you use to justify your claims about similar systems only different in terms of power.

[TheDarkling]

Master of Ossus:
1.The Federation exhibits hull hugging shields in he Chintoka invasion - I believe on a galxy class ship and we have seen them alter shield geometry before.
2.This is only to allow sensors and comms past the shieldthey could easily be closed up with extra power (also note that SW are similar in that they block all emissions thus closing up the frequency gaps which SF ships choose to leave open).
3.Accept that Nav deflectors block lasers etc yet shuttle craft can move past them (its possible to attribute this to opening of physical windows in the shields).

I also dont believe that the Navigation deflector provides all shielding but I may be wrong on this point (TM suggests this but im not sure of any canon evidence that backs it up).

The main deflector in this case was simply used to channel energy at a specific freq and was not actually making a shield.

Of the points you raised I would say number 3 is the main differance between the two shielding techs however it is possible SF has simply integrated two systems that SW keeps apart.

PS Im not speaking for MY Bean just giving my opinion.

[TheDarkling]

* Mr Bean not MY bean I dont own him, well not in all debates anyway

[Master of Ossus]

I agree that number three is by far the most relevent of the factors. I think I even labelled it as being the most important. I think that that one represents a significant difference in the way that the two shields work, as it is possible that the other two differences I pointed out could be eventually incorporated while using the same concept. I really don't know. I agree with Bean that shield technology is the only one that the Borg could hope to implement quickly, but I also think that it would be highly unlikely for them to do so.

I also don't think his ramming tactic would be at all effective, but I've already explained that to him.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I'm just curious where the three broadsides part came from...I know in some stories the shields go down fast, but I've heard in others they last for as long as 30 minutes of intense combat. In ROTJ they lasted for 10-15 minutes of varying intensity combat.

As for how similar are they, apparently they can both be hull hugging OR a bubble (you see the bubble in Stackpole written X-Wing material and in TNG respectively), but you see them more hull hugging in the film and in TOS/DS9 respectively.

ST shields allow special frequency weaknesses to let things through, while SW shields don't and instead open little holes if they need to. There's a difference.

It is sometimes IMPLIED that some SW ships use a combined rather than ray/particle shielding. For instance, Rogue Squadron routinely takes down shields with protorps (that supposedly go against particle shields) but then they can assist with lasers (which supposedly go against the ray shield).

By the way, if they are similar in principle, then the differences will lie in material technology to handle the greater energies involved. Because the Borg and the Federation don't seem to have this material technology, any attempt by them to duplicate the power of an ISD would probably result in them destroying their own equipment (and possibly their whole ship in the proces).

[tharkûn]

Well here's my take on it:

1. The technology in the SSD is worthless, the prize is the SSD itself and its navigational data.

2. The imps don't where the wormhole is, so you could fighted limited warfare with ease.

Now first off this is going to require tactics otherwise the Borg last about as long the Imps in RoTJ. So the "real borg" aka TNG Borg would be hopelessly slaughtered. The Borg in Voyager which seem to have some inkling of strategy besides "Resistance is futile" might have the collective brain to pull this off ... maybe not.

So let's assume for now that the borg can actually man the ship and read its database. Yes I know imperial databases are encrypted, I think the Borg have enough parrallel computing power to break the encryption (encryption is an exponential growth problem without quantum computers ... with quantum computers its polynomic ... either way an SSD is highly unlikely to have the amount of wiring needed to encrypt everything to the extent that thousands of smaller parrallel computers can't crack it.

So let's say the Borg get the database and figure out how to crew the ship. If they don't try frontal assualt (a dubious assumption) then they can use the SSD to raid the Empires population. Numerous unsheilded planets exist on the periphery of the empire. The firepower of an SSD alone can overwhelm most civillian and even military ships. The important thing for the borg is to catch the important people: the egineers, the historians (a technology jump of this magnitude likely means you need outdated tech to make something that makes current tech), the scientists, the manufacturing workers, etc. Basically follow the Ethopian plan ... if you don't have the tech or the know-how ... import guys who do. Yes this means you are going to have assimilate *many* people to get the needed back knowledge, likely thousands of skilled people and millions of people just to up your odds of getting the skilled buggers.

After you have enough people who do understand how basic imperial technology works and is fabricated, go back to the ST galaxy and begin rapid industrialization. Leonardo might not be able to build a calculator ... but if you give him enough people who do with enough resources ... he might pull it off.

After you industrialize you need to pump out ships with Imperial grade sheilding and as close to parity in weaponry as possible. After that you need only build up a large enough fleet that you outnumber the empire at the local level (and enough to skill any interdictors quick so you can get the hell out of trap fast). After this its just hit, run, and attrition. The borg have nothing to defend, the imps do. With luck the empire eventually fractures and you can start trying to hold territory.

Longshot overall? Hell yes. Better than their chances before? Hell yes.

[Master of Ossus]

PS Im not speaking for MY Bean just giving my opinion.

* Mr Bean not MY bean I dont own him, well not in all debates anyway

Okay, I have to say it. Sorry to all parties involved.

Bit of a Freudian slip, there, eh Darkling?

Okay, back on topic. Navigational deflectors actually only protect a tiny fraction of the ship (straight ahead). They are designed to push asteroids and small debris out of the way of the ship. There are separate shields to protect the rest of the vessel, which are raised only in combat situations and other instances in which the ship is likely to take damage(presumably this is to conserve power, but there might be other problems as well). Note that shuttlecraft are never launched from in front of moving starships, always from behind. This may be because the navigational deflectors would damage them, or it might be because of some other reasons (structural integrity for the entire ship, perhaps the keel of most ships is where it is easiest to launch from, etc.).

I repeat my previous question. If the Borg captured an SSD, but did not gain the ability to reproduce hyperdrives, why wouldn't an ISD simply run away from the Borg if they are absorbing fire for the SSD and come back with an overwhelming force? How can the Borg generate the kind of huge masses that are required to prevent a SW ship from going to hyperspace? Borg ships with SW shields are of no significant importance in ramming or blocking ISD movement, except in huge quantities. Also remember that absorbing fire goes both ways. If a Borg cube decides to fill the firing lanes between the SSD and ISDs or other Imperial warships, it will be fired on by the SW ship, and the Borg ship must stop firing in order to avoid hurting fellow drones. Blind spots go both ways in combat. I don't think that this is of any significant value to the Borg, except in the ST galaxy agaisnt their other little friends. I don't think it would help them against Imperial warships.

[Cpt_Frank]

I don't think the Borg will be able to develop real SW shields at all.
Possibly they might develop SW type shields rendering frequency modulation futile, but with thier current power generation techniques they'll never acheive the powerlevels to cope with the firepower of an Imperial warship.