How do Trekkies envision the defeat of the Empire?

[Darth Servo]

well if you're masochitic there's the review of "the portal", that's what rabid trekkies would think would at it's worst, but be warned once you've seen it you can't unsee it.

Why?Oh Why did i read it?I feel my mind just overdosed on stupidity,and i haven't even read the entire first chapter.
Navigational deflector,lasers,fusion reactor... What the Fuck???

Has anyone ever mentioned to Mr. Kennedy of the hypocrisy of his position of "nothing but the movies, oh, except for that bit about their reactors being fusion powered"

[Peptuck]

well if you're masochitic there's the review of "the portal", that's what rabid trekkies would think would at it's worst, but be warned once you've seen it you can't unsee it.

Why?Oh Why did i read it?I feel my mind just overdosed on stupidity,and i haven't even read the entire first chapter.
Navigational deflector,lasers,fusion reactor... What the Fuck???

Has anyone ever mentioned to Mr. Kennedy of the hypocrisy of his position of "nothing but the movies, oh, except for that bit about their reactors being fusion powered"

Hypocrisy is the only thing they have left to resort to in order to even pretend to have a decent argument.

[Batman]

That level of hypocrisy and 'decent argument, and/or an even remotely accurate approximation thereof' are SO mutually exclusive...

[Darth Wong]

Well, it does help that they have no education. Anybody with a real education in any field of human endeavour which places value on integrity of method would have trouble looking at himself in the mirror if he conducted himself as they do. It's quite telling that the most educated person they ever threw at the debate was "Gothmog" from Spacebattles, and his education was a "Communications" degree (for those who don't know, that's one of those "professional bullshitter" degrees that universities use in order to pad their tuition revenues so they can pay for their more prestigious programs).

[Ryan Thunder]

Agh! My eyes! I wrote better than that when I was in elementary school! [referring to GKs steaming pile of shit fanfic]

[Ryan Thunder]

Oh, and that's not to say that I wrote very well back then, either...

[Darth Servo]

How do the people who take Star Trek's side in this debate envision the Federation defeating the Empire?

With their eyes closed, laying in their beds alone.

Cuddling their copy of the TNG: TM.

[PeZook]

From what I've seen, they just assume everything goes perfectly for the Federation, every time, everywhere. Particulars vary, but now a whole lot.

The Feds use all the various tricks from all episodes to just WTFPWN Star Destroyers left and right. Overwhelming strategic superiority? Come on, a federation soldier can kill like dozens of stormtroopers with a widebeam phaser! Antimatter grenades! Federation commandos! Buzzwords! More buzzwords!

It's not different at all from various "What if Germany had..." discussions, where fanboys invariably wank over the King Tiger, the Me-262, the Type XXI uboat, whatever. Like in a game of Magic: The Gathering, you whip out a card that can counter an enemy card in some way because of what it has written on the face. Capabilities, limits, power output and deployment considerations don't matter in the fanboy's mind. Not at all. The Federation can bring the Empire to the table by it's sheer awesomeness - it doesn't matter that they wouldn't be able to occupy the Empire even if they drafted their entire population, they have widebeamphasersantimattergrenadestransportersomgpersonalshielding!

In reality, of course, plans go wrong, tricks backfire, planning is imperfect and stupid things like "logistics", "strategic mobility" and "industrial output" matter a whole lot. A fanboy is simply unable to look at the wider picture involved in an interstellar war.

[DarthShady]

I have one thing to say to all trekkies who say that the federation would win because they have

widebeamphasersantimattergrenadestransportersomgpersonalshielding!

GET A FUCKING COLLEGE DEGREE!
(But first get a Brain)

The reason the Empire would win(ok there are many reasons,but its a long list)is Death Star TM.

[Lord Revan]

you know shady, rabid trekkies have a Wall of Ignorance so thick that they could almost use it as a shield to block shots in VS. debates, or in other words they don't allow the truth to get in the way of their mastrubation fantasies.

to them the only wrong answer is that they're wrong, they're kind of like fundies in that way.

[DarthShady]

you know shady, rabid trekkies have a Wall of Ignorance so thick that they could almost use it as a shield to block shots in VS. debates, or in other words they don't allow the truth to get in the way of their mastrubation fantasies.

to them the only wrong answer is that they're wrong, they're kind of like fundies in that way.

Well it seems we just might have to break down that wall of theirs,if thats even possible?
(But we might have to wait for the 7 of 9 fantasies to end first)
They act like a bunch of adolescent virgin males whose entire life is Trek!

[Lord Revan]

They act like a bunch of adolescent virgin males whose entire life is Trek!

that's probably because most of them are just that, some are adult permavirgins whose entire life is trek.

and no it's not possible in most cases to break their Wall of Ignorance.

[Master_Baerne]

They act like a bunch of adolescent virgin males whose entire life is Trek!

that's probably because most of them are just that, some are adult permavirgins whose entire life is trek.

and no it's not possible in most cases to break their Wall of Ignorance.

If Mike can't do it, how can we?

[Darth Wong]

In order to break their Wall of Ignorance, you would have to teach them physics, so they stop horribly butchering it in the course of making their arguments. And that's no easy task; even people who want to learn physics often have considerable difficulty, and most people are so bad at it that they only take the minimum mandated in high school.

[Jim Raynor]

Trektards have no concept of war on the strategic level.

They don't talk about industry, manpower, or the fact that Imperial ships can blitz across the Federation in short time while Trek ships will struggle to do the same in weeks or months. They don't talk about who's actually in a position to attack who. The vast majority of Trektards I've seen or argued against usually try to boil the entire war down to pointless duels between ISDs and Galaxies in the middle of nowhere, whether Jedi can block phaser beams with their lightsabers, or some other petty irrelevant bullshit. And of course, they'll always give the ST side their little one-episode-wonder wank tech. So when (in their minds) the Trek ship defeats *one* ISD, they think Trek has won it all.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Trektards have no concept of war on the strategic level.

They don't talk about industry, manpower, or the fact that Imperial ships can blitz across the Federation in short time while Trek ships will struggle to do the same in weeks or months. They don't talk about who's actually in a position to attack who. The vast majority of Trektards I've seen or argued against usually try to boil the entire war down to pointless duels between ISDs and Galaxies in the middle of nowhere, whether Jedi can block phaser beams with their lightsabers, or some other petty irrelevant bullshit. And of course, they'll always give the ST side their little one-episode-wonder wank tech. So when (in their minds) the Trek ship defeats *one* ISD, they think Trek has won it all.

The funniest part about it is that even if Star trek had weapons parity, they'd still lose horribly, Aratech's done some number using the time it took to make the DSII (Though he made a mistake and calculated for 800km instead of the 900km) and using only a single shipping company and doing it in secrecy, the Empire could build 14,289,354.14 ISDs a day if need be, of course they'll bring up the 25k ISD-II's from the Imperial Sourcebook forgetting that that's in peacetime and that there's no threat that would require the Empire to field that many ships. The Empires superiority over the Federation is so complete, that thinking Trek can even put up any major resistance, let alone tie or win, that we should probably classify it as a new form of mental retardation.

[Aratech]

Trektards have no concept of war on the strategic level.

They don't talk about industry, manpower, or the fact that Imperial ships can blitz across the Federation in short time while Trek ships will struggle to do the same in weeks or months. They don't talk about who's actually in a position to attack who. The vast majority of Trektards I've seen or argued against usually try to boil the entire war down to pointless duels between ISDs and Galaxies in the middle of nowhere, whether Jedi can block phaser beams with their lightsabers, or some other petty irrelevant bullshit. And of course, they'll always give the ST side their little one-episode-wonder wank tech. So when (in their minds) the Trek ship defeats *one* ISD, they think Trek has won it all.

The funniest part about it is that even if Star trek had weapons parity, they'd still lose horribly, Aratech's done some number using the time it took to make the DSII (Though he made a mistake and calculated for 800km instead of the 900km) and using only a single shipping company and doing it in secrecy, the Empire could build 14,289,354.14 ISDs a day if need be, of course they'll bring up the 25k ISD-II's from the Imperial Sourcebook forgetting that that's in peacetime and that there's no threat that would require the Empire to field that many ships. The Empires superiority over the Federation is so complete, that thinking Trek can even put up any major resistance, let alone tie or win, that we should probably classify it as a new form of mental retardation.

Well, I've been meaning to redo the calc, so here goes.

*clears throat*

Okay, if we take take the stated dimensions of a Venator class ISD and scale as is appropriate to get the Imperator Class it works itself out to be roughly 1600x771x100 (we disregard the bridge tower as the actual height of the ship, as its significantly taller than the rest of the ship). Multiply by the area necessary to get the three dimensional volume of such a shape (1/2BxHxH (or 800x771x100)) and you get 61,680,000 M^3 of space. Now then, the DS2 clocks in at a whopping 900 kilometers in diameter. To get its volume (assuming completion) we use R^3(4/3)xPI or 450000^3(4/3) X 3.14... equals out to roughly 3.817035074E17 M^3 of production area. Now, if we multiply that by 60%, the commonly accepted percentage of completion... 2.290221044E17. Now, divide that by the above mentioned 61,680,000... and we get 3,713,069,138 Imperator Class Star Destroyers.

Take that number and divide it by a six month time period (182.5 days) and it equals out to... 20,345,584.32 ISDs per day. Or, if we really want to get nitpicky, 847,732.68 ISDs an hour, 14,128.878 ISDs a minute, or a whopping 235.4813 ISDs per second.

Now, unless my memory has utterly failed me, a GCS is generally assumed to be 1/10th the volume of a ISD, which means that a private shipping company has the ability to crank out what amounts to nearly 2,400 GCS in a single second while using discrete shipments of raw materials.

For some reason, this image seems remarkably appropriate for what is in store for the Milky Way in the event of Imperial invasion.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

The funniest part about it is that even if Star trek had weapons parity, they'd still lose horribly, Aratech's done some number using the time it took to make the DSII (Though he made a mistake and calculated for 800km instead of the 900km) and using only a single shipping company and doing it in secrecy, the Empire could build 14,289,354.14 ISDs a day if need be, of course they'll bring up the 25k ISD-II's from the Imperial Sourcebook forgetting that that's in peacetime and that there's no threat that would require the Empire to field that many ships. The Empires superiority over the Federation is so complete, that thinking Trek can even put up any major resistance, let alone tie or win, that we should probably classify it as a new form of mental retardation.

Well, I've been meaning to redo the calc, so here goes.

*clears throat*

Okay, if we take take the stated dimensions of a Venator class ISD and scale as is appropriate to get the Imperator Class it works itself out to be roughly 1600x771x100 (we disregard the bridge tower as the actual height of the ship, as its significantly taller than the rest of the ship). Multiply by the area necessary to get the three dimensional volume of such a shape (1/2BxHxH (or 800x771x100)) and you get 61,680,000 M^3 of space. Now then, the DS2 clocks in at a whopping 900 kilometers in diameter. To get its volume (assuming completion) we use R^3(4/3)xPI or 450000^3(4/3) X 3.14... equals out to roughly 3.817035074E17 M^3 of production area. Now, if we multiply that by 60%, the commonly accepted percentage of completion... 2.290221044E17. Now, divide that by the above mentioned 61,680,000... and we get 3,713,069,138 Imperator Class Star Destroyers.

Take that number and divide it by a six month time period (182.5 days) and it equals out to... 20,345,584.32 ISDs per day. Or, if we really want to get nitpicky, 847,732.68 ISDs an hour, 14,128.878 ISDs a minute, or a whopping 235.4813 ISDs per second.

Now, unless my memory has utterly failed me, a GCS is generally assumed to be 1/10th the volume of a ISD, which means that a private shipping company has the ability to crank out what amounts to nearly 2,400 GCS in a single second while using discrete shipments of raw materials.

For some reason, this image seems remarkably appropriate for what is in store for the Milky Way in the event of Imperial invasion.

http://screenshots.filesnetwork.com/14/ ... 151_46.jpg

I once made a very similar (although less mathematically adept) argument on ASVS, but the problem here is that it assumes all parts of the ship can be quick-fabricated with equal ease. For instance, let's say you can whip up most of the DS's structure pretty quickly, but the reactor has to be made the slow way. Well, every ISD's reactor will have to be made the slow way, too, so you can't just whip up the DS2's volume of ISD's in 6 months. DS2 -> ISD Volume comparisons alone don't really allow us to say whether a 25,000 ISD starfleet is a lot of ships or not.

[Aratech]

A valid point. However, bear in mind that the DS2's reactor is going to be several dozen orders of magnitude larger than an ISDs, and thus, significantly more difficult to produce. Now, factor in that that reactor was able to run full tilt boogy at Endor....

[Batman]

I once made a very similar (although less mathematically adept) argument on ASVS, but the problem here is that it assumes all parts of the ship can be quick-fabricated with equal ease. For instance, let's say you can whip up most of the DS's structure pretty quickly, but the reactor has to be made the slow way. Well, every ISD's reactor will have to be made the slow way, too,

No it wont necessarily and besides that is completely irrelevant. You are blithely assuming that a)the DS reactor needs to be and b) BECAUSE of that completely baseless assumption, so needs every OTHER reactor.

so you can't just whip up the DS2's volume of ISD's in 6 months.

YES YOU CAN. Even if we accept your completely unsubstantiated theory that it takes 6 months to build a hypermatter reactor no matter the size the DSs' easily show the Empire has the industrial capacity to do so for millions if not
billions of SDs. It's called multiprl building slips in scores of shipyards.

DS2 -> ISD Volume comparisons alone don't really allow us to say whether a 25,000 ISD starfleet is a lot of ships or not.

Actually yes it does, it allows us to judge that where industrial capacities are concerned, 25,000 Star Destroyers is positively pathetic.

[Ryan Thunder]

Think of it this way; could you directly relate the rate of construction of car engines to lawn mower engines?

The car engine is larger, yes, but just because its (say) 10 times the size of the lawnmower engine doesn't mean it necessarily takes 10 times longer to build.

Or am I completely out to lunch?

[Ghost Rider]

Think of it this way; could you directly relate the rate of construction of car engines to lawn mower engines?

The car engine is larger, yes, but just because its (say) 10 times the size of the lawnmower engine doesn't mean it necessarily takes 10 times longer to build.

Or am I completely out to lunch?

This evades the point that while people are taking volume, the largest reason they take the Death Star to destroyer analogy is industrial capacity. In essence what a lot of people push forward when they use why the Axis wouldn't have won on any material basis. It demonstrate the fact that the Empire has the industrial might for that much material to be procured, fabricated into usable industry and then constructed in a certain time period.

[JGregory32]

I would just like to point out that the calcs assume the DS is a solid sphere. If there were any large voids that would alter the amount of material required to build and deploy it.

Also while you could possibly build a tremendous number of Star Destroyers you also have to account for the personal, supplies, and armaments for these ships as well.

I do understand that highspeed cloning is a possibility but there must be SOME kinds of blockages in the system or SW is going to get more wank than ST.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

I once made a very similar (although less mathematically adept) argument on ASVS, but the problem here is that it assumes all parts of the ship can be quick-fabricated with equal ease. For instance, let's say you can whip up most of the DS's structure pretty quickly, but the reactor has to be made the slow way. Well, every ISD's reactor will have to be made the slow way, too,

No it wont necessarily and besides that is completely irrelevant. You are blithely assuming that a)the DS reactor needs to be and b) BECAUSE of that completely baseless assumption, so needs every OTHER reactor.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm challenging the assumption that you can scale build time linearly with size. There's no reason to think that, so you can't really use the DS2 to estimate how quickly they could build ISD's. It's still useful as a thought exercise to show how much more industrial might the Empire has than the Feds, but not to generate estimates.

so you can't just whip up the DS2's volume of ISD's in 6 months.

YES YOU CAN. Even if we accept your completely unsubstantiated theory that it takes 6 months to build a hypermatter reactor no matter the size the DSs' easily show the Empire has the industrial capacity to do so for millions if not
billions of SDs. It's called multiprl building slips in scores of shipyards.

That's probably true, but the thousands of ISD's per second hypothesis based on DS2 volume doesn't necessarily follow. I've always envisioned the 25,000 ship Starfleet as a rapid reaction force rather than a full navy.

DS2 -> ISD Volume comparisons alone don't really allow us to say whether a 25,000 ISD starfleet is a lot of ships or not.

Actually yes it does, it allows us to judge that where industrial capacities are concerned, 25,000 Star Destroyers is positively pathetic.

Yes, that's true. It just doesn't allow us to make good estimates about how quickly they can actually build ISD's.

[Batman]

I would just like to point out that the calcs assume the DS is a solid sphere.

No they don't.They simply assume the DS has the same average density as a Star Destroyer.

If there were any large voids that would alter the amount of material required to build and deploy it.

Now why don't you show us they exist.

Also while you could possibly build a tremendous number of Star Destroyers you also have to account for the personal, supplies, and armaments for these ships as well.

Which excepting the personell are already provided for by building the thing in the first place.

I do understand that highspeed cloning is a possibility but there must be SOME kinds of blockages in the system or SW is going to get more wank than ST.

You are aware this makes absolutely no sense, yes?