The Orville: Season 2

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Spoiler

Well the Krills back in "Krill" didn't even do a check on Mercer and Malloy when they infiltrated, and they were using even weaker means of concealment. My main issue with this episode is that it seemed too soon to do something like this. Like mentioned, Teleya has to go through a lot of stuff for it to happen and assuming an Earth year per season it seems extremely quick.

[Tandrax218]

S02E04 the Krill infiltrator chick that ends up with Mercer, the second part of the episode when they crash land on that planet seem to me as a homage to the movie Enemy Mine
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089092/

[FaxModem1]

So, an entire culture that views Astrology as so important, that they institute concentration camps over it. I guess most cultural differences are that arbitrary and stupid, when you think about it. Especially when a society should, by all means, be progressing on that front to the point where it shouldn't matter for people.

[Batman]

Exhibit A: the modern day United States. The only country so far to send a man to the moon...wherein a significant portion of the population believe the Earth is flat and/or 6000 years old.

[Batman]

An interesting approach (that likely wouldn't have worked with that kind of society but would have been interesting from a storytelling point of view) would've been 'actually on the planet they were born on, the stars are arranged significantly differently, so they'd be a completely different zodiac'

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Ah, Astrological Nazis.

The Union's first contact accepts interstellar signals, in this case a la the Arecibo message, regardless of space travel capabilities. However, it seems to imply that technology advancement would not be interfered as the crew expects the planet to find out about the ruse many years later.

While there's yet to see on some details, how does this contact system compare to the UFP? Compared to what DISCO was doing this week (as well as what Trek always does with the Prime Directive) it kind of implies that interstellar communication itself is sufficient enough to indicate a civilization is ready.

[bilateralrope]

So the Union is pacifist to the point that they let themselves be pushed around by civilizations that are far weaker militarily. That's just asking for even more groups to refuse diplomacy because they know they can push the Union around.

When comparing this episode with Star Trek, two episodes come to mind. A Taste of Armageddon (TOS) and [/i]Code of Honor[/i](TNG). In all three episodes, a planet who had insignificant military capability compared to the Enterprise/Orville took crew members prisoner due to the planets culture.

In Code of Honor the Enterprise was also after certain goods from the planet and the local culture allowed a way forwards. The diplomatic route remained open.

In A Taste of Armageddon, Kirk was one of the crew held prisoner. But, once he was able to communicate with the Enterprise, he gave General Order 24. Which Scotty interpreted as "remind this planet of how easily we can fuck over their civilization". Which, when you consider what could have happened if Eminiar had tried to take a Klingon captain prisoner, seems like a reminder that they really needed.
Kirk's decision to then blow up their war computers and force both planets to choose between peace or a real war is not part of this comparison.

An interesting approach (that likely wouldn't have worked with that kind of society but would have been interesting from a storytelling point of view) would've been 'actually on the planet they were born on, the stars are arranged significantly differently, so they'd be a completely different zodiac'

That might not have even worked to get the captured crew members freed. But I am very disappointed that we didn't see Mercer even try it.

[Alferd Packer]

While there's yet to see on some details, how does this contact system compare to the UFP? Compared to what DISCO was doing this week (as well as what Trek always does with the Prime Directive) it kind of implies that interstellar communication itself is sufficient enough to indicate a civilization is ready.

In addition to the existence of a message, the content is also important. I think one might reasonably argue if the message was "whoever you are, stay the fuck away" the Union would honor the request. Or, perhaps, engage in passive observation to determine why such a xenophobic message was sent. In any event, I think the approach was an attempt by McFarlane (who wrote the episode) to try make the Prime Directive a little more practical and palatable.

In all it was a very good episode. I even found myself liking the new Xeleyan, Talla--whom I fully expected to be a hamfisted, hurried flop of a replacement.

[bilateralrope]

Now that I've had some time to think, I don't think the writers of this episode understand what astrologists believe. They don't just look at the main constellations. They also look at planets, asteroids, comets, etc. Basically anything visible in the sky. Which opens up another negotiation possibility for Mercer: Give the planet a list of easily destroyed objects that have played a role in the planets astrology, then offer to destroy x of them in exchange for the prisoners. After all, if the objects in the sky affect how things play out, their destruction should also have an effect.

Not knowing about astrology is probably also why the writers didn't think of the argument that they were born on planets with different constellations and longer/shorter years.

An argument that Mercer should have tried early on: Keeping the prisoners in the internment camp means that the planet needs to pay for their care. Give them back to the Orville and they will never set foot on the planet again. Oh and did we mention that their combat training will make them harder to keep prisoner than anyone else in the camp ?

[Steve]

The gist I got was that the argument of different worlds having different signs wouldn't fly, these people believed their constellations/signs were the only ones that mattered, were a deep fundamental part of creation.

Honestly it might have been more interesting to have recovered Bortus and Kelly without violence, or rather passive violence only, early on. Like, say, Isaac just flying a shuttle down cloaked, getting their attention, then expanding the shuttle shields or something to let them walk out unscathed. Any weapons fire would be by the Regorians, and with no effect. Then let the rest of the episode play out the ramifications. They could even still do the solar sail mirror bit as an attempt to peacefully stop the planet's terrible policies, if they wanted more meat than exploring the intricacies of more powerful civilizations interacting with weaker ones.

[bilateralrope]

The gist I got was that the argument of different worlds having different signs wouldn't fly, these people believed their constellations/signs were the only ones that mattered, were a deep fundamental part of creation.

Sure, such an argument would have failed. But it annoys me that the writers didn't even bring it up.

Also, it would have been a way for the planet to back down while saving face.

Honestly it might have been more interesting to have recovered Bortus and Kelly without violence, or rather passive violence only, early on. Like, say, Isaac just flying a shuttle down cloaked, getting their attention, then expanding the shuttle shields or something to let them walk out unscathed. Any weapons fire would be by the Regorians, and with no effect. Then let the rest of the episode play out the ramifications. They could even still do the solar sail mirror bit as an attempt to peacefully stop the planet's terrible policies, if they wanted more meat than exploring the intricacies of more powerful civilizations interacting with weaker ones.

Once Bortus and Kelly are rescued, then the Union's policy on not interfering would come into play and the Orville would have little choice other than to leave.


I'm also worried about how the population will react when that star is found out to be false. If they are constantly measuring the locations of stars, they would have noticed parallax. If I ignore the episodes visuals, the mirror still needs to be within the star system. They will notice that it's far too close to be a star within a year. Then they are going to be angry at the Union for its trickery. But the Union is out of reach, so who will they take their anger out on ?

[Steve]

Shhh! The episode explicitly said they won't figure it out for centuries! Ergo they have magically dealt with whatever fact you're employing to say they're full of it.

[Tsyroc]

If they'd had more time in the episode I would have liked Mercer to argue that the Union had progressed to the point that they've "fixed" the supposed issue with people born during the offending time frame, or insisted that they had plenty of evidence that their people were fine. I mean, they are both in command positions.

The primitive planet also should have been really worried that this advanced civilization has these people in positions of authority.

[bilateralrope]

If they'd had more time in the episode I would have liked Mercer to argue that the Union had progressed to the point that they've "fixed" the supposed issue with people born during the offending time frame,

That's a lie that's going to be exposed much quicker than the mirror satellite. All the planet needs to do is ask for some details because they want to copy whatever the Union allegedly did.

Also, it's still a lie. I'm not seeing how lying to resolve the situation is better than the honesty of saying: We have much bigger guns than you. We aren't happy about you taking our people prisoner. Give them back and we will leave.
Especially when there are hostile civilizations out there.

The primitive planet also should have been really worried that this advanced civilization has these people in positions of authority.

Their dogma demands they ignore any inconvenient facts.

[FaxModem1]

So, Orville takes TNG's 'In Theory', and runs with it in a more continuous direction. We also get to see Isaac's actor out of the suit.

While I found the episode as a whole rather sweet, anyone else get the impression that at the end of the day, the crew of the Orville are just one big petri dish for Isaac, and if necessary, he would probably watch them die to collect data for his people?

[bilateralrope]

anyone else get the impression that at the end of the day, the crew of the Orville are just one big petri dish for Isaac, and if necessary, he would probably watch them die to collect data for his people?

That's what I've been thinking about Isaac for most of the series.

[JI_Joe84]

So, Orville takes TNG's 'In Theory', and runs with it in a more continuous direction. We also get to see Isaac's actor out of the suit.

While I found the episode as a whole rather sweet, anyone else get the impression that at the end of the day, the crew of the Orville are just one big petri dish for Isaac, and if necessary, he would probably watch them die to collect data for his people?

In a word, Yes. He totally would.

[FaxModem1]

So, Orville takes TNG's 'In Theory', and runs with it in a more continuous direction. We also get to see Isaac's actor out of the suit.

While I found the episode as a whole rather sweet, anyone else get the impression that at the end of the day, the crew of the Orville are just one big petri dish for Isaac, and if necessary, he would probably watch them die to collect data for his people?

In a word, Yes. He totally would.

So, are they foreshadowing this storywise, that this is coming to pass, or are the writers unintentionally making Isaac a ticking time bomb that when it comes down to it, will let them die?

[JI_Joe84]

So, Orville takes TNG's 'In Theory', and runs with it in a more continuous direction. We also get to see Isaac's actor out of the suit.

While I found the episode as a whole rather sweet, anyone else get the impression that at the end of the day, the crew of the Orville are just one big petri dish for Isaac, and if necessary, he would probably watch them die to collect data for his people?

In a word, Yes. He totally would.

So, are they foreshadowing this storywise, that this is coming to pass, or are the writers unintentionally making Isaac a ticking time bomb that when it comes down to it, will let them die?

How should I know? All I know is his cooky take on Data's "I aspire to be human one day" seems to be "I'll trade working for these people for getting to watch them so my machine race can under stand them"
For all they know he could be studying their weaknesses for later conquering, or he could be learning how to interact with "biological beings" so there are no missunderstandings that could lead to a war. Either way it looks like they wouldn't know.
Hell look at what's her name the alien that dies when placed in direct sun light. She just walked in and they were like "Ohhh ok cool"

[Rogue 9]

Man. Why in hell is Moclus allowed to remain in the Union?

[FaxModem1]

Man. Why in hell is Moclus allowed to remain in the Union?

Why is Brunei given every allowance by other nations regarding their regressive views, and near silence for their laws treating homosexuals, adulterers, non-Muslims, etc? Because that nation has something that the rest of the world wants. With Brunei's case, it's oil. With Moclus, it's their weapons tech. As Kelly and Ed mention at the end, the Union needs them. And in international as well as intra-national politics, what your nations needs is more important than how unevolved your nation is regarding 'human rights'.

[Rogue 9]

Yeah, but still.

Also, Locar's reason for not requesting Union asylum makes no sense. If he didn't want more running and hiding, what did he intend to do if not discovered in the shuttle or if Lt. Keyali had let him go? Also also, we established in Season 1 that the Moclan fleet is disposed to at least threaten to fire on Union vessels if they harbor a Moclan that they believe they need to prosecute, so an asylum grant may well have led to conflict.

[Alferd Packer]

Honestly, Brunei isn't even that good an analogue--oil is a raw resource and available elsewhere. What Moclus offers is a considerable and highly specialized strategic advantage. Consider: 1 Moclan engineer (albeit a highly-regarded one) was able to improve a mid-level ship's shields by what, 60%, with a few days' work? With similar upgrades available to the big ships of the fleet, that's an undeniable advantage over the Krill. It's more akin to if Brunei had somehow perfected a proprietary ABM system. Any nuclear power would literally give and overlook anything for access to that technology.

[FaxModem1]

Honestly, Brunei isn't even that good an analogue--oil is a raw resource and available elsewhere. What Moclus offers is a considerable and highly specialized strategic advantage. Consider: 1 Moclan engineer (albeit a highly-regarded one) was able to improve a mid-level ship's shields by what, 60%, with a few days' work? With similar upgrades available to the big ships of the fleet, that's an undeniable advantage over the Krill. It's more akin to if Brunei had somehow perfected a proprietary ABM system. Any nuclear power would literally give and overlook anything for access to that technology.

So, Locar is the Alan Turing of Moclan?

[bilateralrope]

What happens to Moclus if the Union gets access to better tech from someone else ?

I expect that Moculs is receiving quite a lot in exchange for Union access to their tech. But they aren't the most technologically advanced race around. Just the most advanced one willing to trade with the Union.

Isaac was the only one respected by the species with teleporters from the second episode. So I expect his people have much better tech. The possibility of them liking what Isaac sees and deciding to join the Union probably scares Moculs.