More on Terri Schiavo--UPDATE: Schiavo dead 31 Mar 05

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2005-03-23 10:38am

RedImperator wrote: Except the fundies don't like this either. Even Evangelical Protestants think Congress overstepped its authority.

Will this piss them off enough to not vote? No. A few rounds of fag-bashing should see to it that they'll turn out in 2006. The House and Senate knew goddamn well that even in front of right-wing judges, this case held no water. They did it to prod the cattle.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2005-03-23 11:05am

What the Federal courts are now ruling is that not only is there no point in keeping Mrs. Schiavo alive, but that the Schindlers' case is so lacking in factual merit that they do not even have a right for it to be heard.

I'm hoping that the Supreme Court decision will not only affirm this opinion, but also include a firm rebuke toward the Executive and Legislative Branches for attempting to usurp the role of the Judiciary, the way the Florida Supreme Court's did.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-03-23 11:16am

Elfdart wrote:
Fundies actually vote, while regular people stay home and watch TV.

So, 49% of fundies voted for Kerry?

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2005-03-23 11:16am

but have those rebukes had any effect?

Mostly I keep hearing the neocons gloat about how the can now stack the court to match their views, and interprete the laws they way they want them too, and not betray the nation by telling the president that USA PATRIOT violates international and constitutional law.

Jalinth · Post by **Jalinth** » 2005-03-23 11:32am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:but have those rebukes had any effect?

Mostly I keep hearing the neocons gloat about how the can now stack the court to match their views, and interprete the laws they way they want them too, and not betray the nation by telling the president that USA PATRIOT violates international and constitutional law.

But even conservative judges are telling the parents to f***-off. You've had your day (many, many days) in court, you come back again and again, the state courts bent over backwards in allowing multiple rehearings, and you still lost. In fact, you barely one even the most minor motion, let alone anything substantail.

So I think neo-cons might be shocked at some of their "pet" judges in the future. Scalia bitch-slapped the whole concept of unlimited executive authority for detaining US citizens. A more conservative judge who has real brain power (ie: not Thomas) you won't find.

So the Democrats should go towards strongly principled judges even if conservative. You at least get judges who will stand up to the Presidency if they cross the line. You might not like where they think the line is, but at least you have one that doesn't change on a daily basis depending on the whims of the executive.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-03-23 11:38am

Anyone watched the sickening display of Sean Hannity sucking Schiavo's dad's mule all last night. He looked sympathetic, he nodded sorrowfully as the dad went on about his beautiful girl and Fox keeps a nice scrolling slide show of Schiavo as she looked before becoming a turnip. Her all dolled up at a party, her in a wedding dress, etc.

That's NOT what you're trying to keep alive asshole. What you're trying to keep alive is a sack of meat that looks nothing like those pretty pretty pictures you keep showing.

Hannity is a fucking cunt douche. There is nothing he says that has any fucking merit anymore. I'm waiting for Bush or one of his cronies to pull his hand out of Hannity's ass to take a rest from controlling their little sock puppet.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-03-23 12:39pm

Seems to be 'civil disobediance' going on now. Some fucked up group determined to 'get water to Terry' staging now. News said that they got more cops there today because of this.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-03-23 12:42pm

I wonder how many of the radical far-rightists have actually sat down and seriously pondered the facts and ethical arguments surrounding this case before coming to a decision, as opposed to mindlessly following their leaders and then making up whatever quasi-rational sounding argument they think will stick.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-03-23 12:45pm

Darth Wong wrote:I wonder how many of the radical far-rightists have actually sat down and seriously pondered the facts and ethical arguments surrounding this case before coming to a decision, as opposed to mindlessly following their leaders and then making up whatever quasi-rational sounding argument they think will stick.

I'm guessing none, since the polls that include the very same demographic of people protesting, show that most people would not want to be kept alive in Terry's condition.

That and they expected some sort of retrial of the whole case complete with an injuction to keep Terry alive while they had a trial, rather than the judge just ruling that the States did it right and moved on.

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2005-03-23 12:47pm

Knife wrote:Seems to be 'civil disobediance' going on now. Some fucked up group determined to 'get water to Terry' staging now. News said that they got more cops there today because of this.

I think some of them may succeed in bringing her water or food,but will forget about the feeding tube and kill her by shoving it in her mouth.....by then they will probably say that it was god's will that she died.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2005-03-23 12:57pm

Darth Wong wrote:I wonder how many of the radical far-rightists have actually sat down and seriously pondered the facts and ethical arguments surrounding this case before coming to a decision, as opposed to mindlessly following their leaders and then making up whatever quasi-rational sounding argument they think will stick.

That's a rather silly question to ask- since the distinguishing characteristic of the average "radical far-rightists" (I'm assuming you mean Fundamentalist Christians with this term) is accepting "moral" conclusions on either a faith based appeal to authority or on an emotional level- instead of looking at the facts and then using logic to arrive to conclusions from them.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2005-03-23 02:21pm

Knife wrote:
Elfdart wrote:Fundies actually vote, while regular people stay home and watch TV.
So, 49% of fundies voted for Kerry?

Regular people didn't vote for Kerry. Intelligent people voted for Kerry.

Iceberg wrote:I'm hoping that the Supreme Court decision will not only affirm this opinion, but also include a firm rebuke toward the Executive and Legislative Branches for attempting to usurp the role of the Judiciary, the way the Florida Supreme Court's did.

That's what I'm hoping for, as well. SCOTUS should drop the legal equivalent of an ACME 16-ton weight on this idiocy. Both the Executive and Legislative branches' actions were totally unacceptable. In the case of Congress, it was stupidity on both sides of the isle. Both of them need to be put back in their places.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2005-03-23 02:22pm

Why am I not surprised? According to research done by Dailykos, the people who are funding Terri Schiavo's parents are the same ones who have been behind every right-wing smear campaign in recent years from Ken Starr to the Shit Boat Liars...

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-03-23 02:45pm

This was on another board, unfortunately no link provided.

JUSTICE SCALIA, concurring. The various opinions in this case portray quite clearly the difficult, indeed agonizing, questions that are presented by the constantly increasing power of science to keep the human body alive for longer than any reasonable person would want to inhabit it. The States have begun to grapple with these problems through legislation. I am concerned, from the tenor of today's opinions, that we are poised to confuse that enterprise as successfully as we have confused the enterprise of legislating concerning abortion -- requiring it to be conducted against a background of federal constitutional imperatives that are unknown because they are being newly crafted from Term to Term. That would be a great misfortune.

While I agree with the Court's analysis today, and therefore join in its opinion, I would have preferred that we announce, clearly and promptly, that the federal courts have no business in this field; that American law has always accorded the State the power to prevent, by force if necessary, suicide -- including suicide by refusing to take appropriate measures necessary to preserve one's life; that the point at which life becomes "worthless," and the point at which the means necessary to preserve it become "extraordinary" or "inappropriate," are neither set forth in the Constitution nor known to the nine Justices of this Court any better than they are known to nine people picked at random from the Kansas City telephone directory; and hence, that even when it is demonstrated by clear and convincing evidence that a patient no longer wishes certain measures to be taken to preserve his or her life, it is up to the citizens of Missouri to decide, through their elected representatives, whether that wish will be honored. It is quite impossible (because the Constitution says nothing about the matter) that those citizens will decide upon a line less lawful than the one we would choose; and it is unlikely (because we know no more about "life and death" than they do) that they will decide upon a line less reasonable.

Oh that crazy activist judge Scalia.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2005-03-23 02:49pm

Here are the phrases I have seen from the pro-tubies on LibertyPost, SB, Freeperville, beyond3d, and other places.

Why not be/err on the side of life? (I forget which GOP propagandist this originated from, Noonan maybe?)
That brain scan is too low res and doesn't penetrate enough into the head to be reliable.
Michael wants the insurance money.
You're a member of the death cult, ghoul.
Jeb Bush will have blood on his hands if he doesn't save Terri!!
Two thirds of vegetative state diagnosis are wrong.
this line substitutes for about a thousand "pray for Terri" posts

It's been awhile since I've had so many people piss down my back and say it rains.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2005-03-23 04:08pm

Stravo wrote:Anyone watched the sickening display of Sean Hannity sucking Schiavo's dad's mule all last night. He looked sympathetic, he nodded sorrowfully as the dad went on about his beautiful girl and Fox keeps a nice scrolling slide show of Schiavo as she looked before becoming a turnip. Her all dolled up at a party, her in a wedding dress, etc.

That's NOT what you're trying to keep alive asshole. What you're trying to keep alive is a sack of meat that looks nothing like those pretty pretty pictures you keep showing.

Hannity is a fucking cunt douche. There is nothing he says that has any fucking merit anymore. I'm waiting for Bush or one of his cronies to pull his hand out of Hannity's ass to take a rest from controlling their little sock puppet.

This is getting way off the subject, but I find it ironic/sardonic that the right-wing conservatives are the ones pulling for government meddling in private individuals lives. It's amazing how willing people are to sacrifice principles in the name of group acceptance and the almighty dollar.

Hannity is an ass-monkey who will say anything and everything to get additional ratings. Hell, he thinks Ann Coulter is a legitimate political personality. And the Republican Party, how the fuck can they even call themselves Republicans any longer when they steamroll over the Constitution and the Bill of Rights in their efforts to appeal to Christers?

Shameful, completely and utterly shameful. I hope Michael Schiavo sues the fuck out of Hannity, Terry, and some of these other dipshits for all they're worth.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2005-03-23 04:19pm

Iceberg wrote:Why am I not surprised? According to research done by Dailykos, the people who are funding Terri Schiavo's parents are the same ones who have been behind every right-wing smear campaign in recent years from Ken Starr to the Shit Boat Liars...

I trust what Dailykos posts as far as I can throw the collective posters on there.

Mr. Sinister · Post by **Mr. Sinister** » 2005-03-23 04:36pm

I would be deeply suprised if the parents don't try to charge Michael Schiavo with murder or manslaughter when this is all said and done.

I doubt this would be over even after SCOTUS smacks this down.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2005-03-23 04:43pm

Mr. Sinister wrote:I would be deeply suprised if the parents don't try to charge Michael Schiavo with murder or manslaughter when this is all said and done.

If a DA is stupid enough to try prosecuting him, Michael Schiavo will have a juicy wrongful prosecution case. No DA in his right mind would prosecute him for a decision sanctioned by about 20 separate hearings.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2005-03-23 05:00pm

Regular people didn't vote for Kerry. Intelligent people voted for Kerry.

There is no such correlation, Durandal. The least educated (i.e., didn't graduate high school) tend to vote Democratic very heavily, and the most educated (people who went to grad school) also tend to vote Democratic, though by a slimmer margin. Everyone inbetween tends to vote Republican.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2005-03-23 05:04pm

Linky

The Schiavo Case and the Islamization of the Republican Party

The cynical use by the US Republican Party of the Terri Schiavo case repeats, whether deliberately or accidentally, the tactics of Muslim fundamentalists and theocrats in places like Egypt and Pakistan. These tactics involve a disturbing tendency to make private, intimate decisions matters of public interest and then to bring the courts and the legislature to bear on them. President George W. Bush and Republican congressional leaders like Tom Delay have taken us one step closer to theocracy on the Muslim Brotherhood model.

The Muslim fundamentalists use a provision of Islamic law called "bringing to account" (hisba). As Al-Ahram weekly notes, "Hisba signifies a case filed by an individual on behalf of society when the plaintiff feels that great harm has been done to religion." Hisba is a medieval idea that had all but lapsed when the fundamentalists brought it back in the 1970s and 1980s.

In this practice, any individual can use the courts to intervene in the private lives of others. Among the more famous cases of such interference is that of Nasr Hamid Abu Zaid in Egypt. A respected modern scholar of Koranic studies, Abu Zaid argued that, contrary to medieval interpretations of Islamic law, women and men should receive equal inheritance shares. (Medieval Islamic law granted women only half the inheritance shares of their brothers). Abu Zaid was accused of sacrilege. Then the allegation of sacrilege was used as a basis on which the fundamentalists sought to have the courts forcibly divorce him from his wife.

Abu Zaid's wife loved her husband. She did not want to be divorced. But the fundamentalists went before the court and said, she is a Muslim, and he is an infidel, and no Muslim woman may be married to an infidel. They represented their efforts as being on behalf of the Islamic religion, which had an interest in seeing to it that heretics like Abu Zaid could not remain married to a Muslim woman. In 1995 the hisba court actually found against them. They fled to Europe, and ultimately settled in Holland.

Likewise, a similar tactic was deployed against the Egyptian feminist author, Nawal Saadawi, but it failed and she was able to remain in the country.

One of the most objectionable features of this fundamentalist tactic is that persons without standing can interfere in private affairs. Perfect strangers can file a case about your marriage, because they represent themselves as defending a public interest (the upholding of religion and morality).

Terri Schiavo's husband is her legal guardian. Her parents have not succeeded in challenging this status of his. As long as he is the guardian, the decision on removing the feeding tubes is between him and their physicians. Her parents have not succeeded in having this responsibility moved from him to them. Even under legislation George W. Bush signed in 1999 while governor of Texas, the spouse and the physician can make this decision.

In passing a special law to allow the case to be kicked to a Federal judge after the state courts had all ruled in favor of the husband, Congress probably shot itself in the foot once again. The law is not a respecter of persons, so the Federal judge will likely rule as the state ones did.

But the most frightening thing about the entire affair is that public figures like congressmen inserted themselves into the case in order to uphold religious strictures. The lawyer arguing against the husband let the cat out of the bag, as reported by the NYT: ' The lawyer, David Gibbs, also said Ms. Schiavo's religious beliefs as a Roman Catholic were being infringed because Pope John Paul II has deemed it unacceptable for Catholics to refuse food and water. "We are now in a position where a court has ordered her to disobey her church and even jeopardize her eternal soul," Mr. Gibbs said. '

In other words, the United States Congress acted in part on behalf of the Roman Catholic church. Both of these public bodies interfered in the private affairs of the Schiavos, just as the fundamentalist Egyptian, Nabih El-Wahsh, tried to interfere in the marriage of Nawal El Saadawi.

Like many of his fundamentalist counterparts in the Middle East, Tom Delay is rather cynically using this issue to divert attention from his own corruption. Like the Muslim fundamentalist manipulators of Hisba, Delay represents himself as acting on behalf of a higher cause. He said of the case over the weekend, ' "This is not a political issue. This is life and death," '

Republican Hisba will have the same effect in the United States that it does in the Middle East. It will reduce the rights of the individual in favor of the rights of religious and political elites to control individuals. Ayatollah Delay isn't different from his counterparts in Iran.

posted by Juan @ 3/22/2005 06:08:00 AM

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2005-03-23 05:11pm

As to the "Roman Catholic" defense, that's got to be the most trivially easy thing to disprove I've ever seen. Simply call in any random Catholic.

"Are you a Roman Catholic?"
"Yes."
"Do you agree with everything the Pope says?"
"No."
"No further questions."

Macross · Post by **Macross** » 2005-03-23 05:20pm

Durandal wrote:
Mr. Sinister wrote:I would be deeply suprised if the parents don't try to charge Michael Schiavo with murder or manslaughter when this is all said and done.
If a DA is stupid enough to try prosecuting him, Michael Schiavo will have a juicy wrongful prosecution case. No DA in his right mind would prosecute him for a decision sanctioned by about 20 separate hearings.

If I were Michael Schiavo, I would be more worried about death threats and religious wackos then a lawsuit.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2005-03-23 05:41pm

Macross wrote:
Durandal wrote:
Mr. Sinister wrote:I would be deeply suprised if the parents don't try to charge Michael Schiavo with murder or manslaughter when this is all said and done.
If a DA is stupid enough to try prosecuting him, Michael Schiavo will have a juicy wrongful prosecution case. No DA in his right mind would prosecute him for a decision sanctioned by about 20 separate hearings.
If I were Michael Schiavo, I would be more worried about death threats and religious wackos then a lawsuit.

Exactly. The right has done such a great job of smearing the guy as some sort of cold-blooded, adulterous murderer that he'd just be better off taking a new name.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-03-23 05:41pm

9 year old arrested. He tried to go to give Terri a glass of water.

Of course, all the right-wingers are screaming about how horrible this is- sure, it's not horrible to manipulate a child like that, convincing him to do something illegal, and furthermore, something that would most definately HAD killed her, since swallowing is something she dosen't do any more!