New Redletter Media video about Lucas

[Jim Raynor]

Good God this thread is stupid. I come back almost a week later and the same people still caught up on the taxes as if it's even worth talking about. You guys DO realize that Lucas was probably using the easiest shorthand possible, right? The exact details of the taxes (on trade routes, which pissed off the Trade Federation, which has a trade franchise) is irrelevant. The only thing that needs to be understood is that a tax dispute escalated into the use of military force. Something anyone who may have woken up in the middle of elementary school American history should be able to understand.

It's long gotten past the point where I think the people saying these things are either trolling and refusing to admit fault in the RLM review that they idolize. Or as I speculated before, that they're bringing a highly atypical mindset to this. Because it's really, really not normal to want things spelled out for you like this. Demanding the backstory of Bail Organa...this stuff is just embarrassing.

[Jim Raynor]

The arguments laid out in defense of TPM here are just getting more and more absurd...

As opposed to the criticisms of the movie, which have become a parody of obsessive fanboyism.

[Jim Raynor]

My definition "fanboy," in this context? An unusual person who obsesses over the irrelevant nitty gritty details of freaking movie to a ridiculous degree. Especially someone who's completely unaware of how he comes across.

One of you please demand detailed explanations about why you might jam communications during a military op.

[Channel72]

The arguments laid out in defense of TPM here are just getting more and more absurd...

As opposed to the criticisms of the movie, which have become a parody of obsessive fanboyism.

Um... I'm not quite certain you understand the definition of "fanboy." Isn't that someone who obsessively defends the film?

[Cesario]

My definition "fanboy," in this context? An unusual person who obsesses over the irrelevant nitty gritty details of freaking movie to a ridiculous degree. Especially someone who's completely unaware of how he comes across.

One of you please demand detailed explanations about why you might jam communications during a military op.

I really don't see how the motivations of our villains is an irrelevant detail.

[Anguirus]

So here we are 12 years later. Do we finally have a logical consensus on what the Trade Federation wanted?

Money.

Everything else is EU/trivia.

I don't know why the Emperor wanted power, either, but it sure made an entertaining story watching him seize it and try to maintain it.

[Knife]

The arguments laid out in defense of TPM here are just getting more and more absurd...

As opposed to the criticisms of the movie, which have become a parody of obsessive fanboyism.

Um... I'm not quite certain you understand the definition of "fanboy." Isn't that someone who obsessively defends the film?

Most of the people who are 'defending' the film have admitted it wasn't the greatest movie in the world, just that the 'attack's are the silliest criticisms in the world. So... yeah, if you love the genera so much you're coming up with these particular nitpicks as if they are an affront to story telling, you're more of a 'fanboy' than the next guy who causally watches the film and doesn't need those nitpicks to make sense of it .

[Crateria]

So here we are 12 years later. Do we finally have a logical consensus on what the Trade Federation wanted?

Money.

Step One: Blockade Naboo
Step Two: Kill Jedi Investigators
Step Three: Invade and Occupy Naboo
Step Four: Fight Gungan Army
Step Five: ???
Step Six: Profit

But seriously, that's what it's looking like. Again, I don't give a shit about these problems, really. But still...

[Bakustra]

So here we are 12 years later. Do we finally have a logical consensus on what the Trade Federation wanted?

Money.

Everything else is EU/trivia.

I don't know why the Emperor wanted power, either, but it sure made an entertaining story watching him seize it and try to maintain it.

So how do we translate the basal motivation of "money" into the actions taken in the films? Because we can translate the basal motivation of "power" into the actions taken by Palpatine, to a certain limited extent, but we cannot do so for the Trade Federation to any extent. They're blockading a planet? How does this get them money? That is what the film should explain, so that we can follow and understand why the Trade Federation are doing the things they do.

Good God this thread is stupid. I come back almost a week later and the same people still caught up on the taxes as if it's even worth talking about. You guys DO realize that Lucas was probably using the easiest shorthand possible, right? The exact details of the taxes (on trade routes, which pissed off the Trade Federation, which has a trade franchise) is irrelevant. The only thing that needs to be understood is that a tax dispute escalated into the use of military force. Something anyone who may have woken up in the middle of elementary school American history should be able to understand.

It's long gotten past the point where I think the people saying these things are either trolling and refusing to admit fault in the RLM review that they idolize. Or as I speculated before, that they're bringing a highly atypical mindset to this. Because it's really, really not normal to want things spelled out for you like this. Demanding the backstory of Bail Organa...this stuff is just embarrassing.

You should never be allowed to experience fiction in any way, because you have no fucking idea how any of it works. You gabble about how the motivations of antagonists aren't important because related words are thrown around. Answer me this question. If you removed the Death Star Plans from ANH, would it still be a good movie?

[Stark]

So here we are 12 years later. Do we finally have a logical consensus on what the Trade Federation wanted?

We have a consensus that whatever we decide is 'better than TPM'. Does that count?

[Anguirus]

So how do we translate the basal motivation of "money" into the actions taken in the films?

Goalposts = moved, assuming that you are coming at this from the same angle as Insane Galvatron. I freely admit that the Trade Federation are props and ciphers, and the background info is handwavey so that we get a vague sense of "galactic affairs are complicated" while still getting a very simple plot. We could change a few lines of dialogue and get a very different perception of galactic affairs, and still change nothing important about the film itself.

So...does that help you understand my position of "Sure, you're right, but it's a fucking stupid thing to get spun up about"?

Destructionator, feel free to chime in here with another batshit rant about how Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace fails to resemble The Godfather.

So...yeah. Money. Money is the motivation. Nute Gunray doesn't want to be taxed. For whatever reason, he thinks Sidious has a cool plan for getting him out of paying taxes.

They're blockading a planet? How does this get them money? That is what the film should explain, so that we can follow and understand why the Trade Federation are doing the things they do.

I don't care that much about the Trade Federation. It is obvious that Gunray has been more or less suckered into thinking that this is a reasonable strategy for getting the taxes off his back (or alternatively, letting him tax others...it's an identical motivation, just different details). With that more or less established, the film moves on to characters that Lucas obviously feels are more interesting.

If anything, Nute Gunray's goals in the prequel films seem more clearly established than Tarkin's in ANH. About the only clear reads we get off Tarkin is "ruthless" and "a trifle overconfident." He wants to kill Rebels like every other Imperial, but is this because he is a true believer? Is he unusually loyal? Ambitious? Potentially treacherous? Is he mad with power at commanding the Death Star, or is he following well-established doctrines?

Answers to all of these questions can be found in the EU of course. Why the EU, and not the films? Because it's trivia. Tarkin could have any of a dozen different motivations and/or backgrounds and it wouldn't change anything in ANH a whit.

[Elfdart]

So that's why Valorum sent his representatives to tell the TF to back off.

Yes, indeed.

He had to send his secret Jedi agents to negotiate with them because they weren't breaking any laws, and thus the senate couldn't openly force them to give up the blockade.

If it was illegal, why all the cloak and dagger bullshit? Why not just denounce them openly in the senate and send the cops to bust it up right there and then?

Because denouncing them doesn't do anything and the Senate is already gummed up to the point where Valorum can't get them to act. He sends the Jedi, thinking they can force Gunray to back off.

[Cesario]

Tarkin and Gunray serve the same role. They are the primary antagonist of the movie, whom our heroes thwart in order to save the day.

With Tarkin, we know the stakes. We know what will happen if Tarkin succeeds in his evil plan. The Rebel Alliance will be crushed and we'll have a galaxy ruled by fear.

With Gunray we have no fucking clue what the stakes are. When his droid army fell, we don't understand what fate we've narrowly averted.

[Elfdart]

If we're doing Faustian bargains, it's usually useful for the audience to know what Mephistopheles is offering, and why Faust wants it.

Only when Faust is the main character.

Being stupid and greedy is all well and good, but the audience needs to know what they're hoping to accomplish with their actions if the film-maker wants us to care about the outcome.

You're not supposed to care about the TF. They and their minions exist to be heavies for the real villain and to be smacked around by Jedi, Padme and even Jar Jar Binks.

We know what Tarkin wanted to accomplish in A New Hope. He wanted rule by fear. He wanted every system to be so busy shitting themselves in terror at the Death Star that no one would dare harbor the rebels or even consider siding against the Empire.

But why does he want to serve the Emperor? See, you can play this shell game with any movie character.

What did Gunray want? Did he want to conquer Naboo? Did he want the Senate to lift the taxes on his trade routes and was using Naboo as a hostage? Did he want to pillage Naboo for its wealth? Did he want Naboo to be brought to task for not paying their dues to the Trade Federation?

Since when did Naboo owe money to the TF? The Senate levied the tax on the trade routes used by the TF.

I still don't know what Gunray wanted out of the deal.

Watch the opening crawl.

What Sideous wanted was crystal clear, by contrast. He was using the situation to expand his political influence and lay the groundwork for what would become the Clone Wars.

He wants power, the TF wants money.

But it was Gunray that our heroes were fighting the whole movie, not Sideous.

I guess the meaning of the movie's title went right over your head.

Thus when the Trade Federation ship is destroyed and the droids shut down, I don't understand what our heroes have won.

And that...



...is why you fail!

The heroes won nothing -Palpatine/Sidious won.

What would have become of the Naboo if the Trade Federation had gotten everything it wanted? Genocide? Higher taxes? A new governor in place of its elected monarchy?

Being greedy, as described in the opening crawl, they would probably start pushing around other planets to see what concessions they could get by twisting their arms.

[Crateria]

But why does he want to serve the Emperor? See, you can play this shell game with any movie character.

He's greedy for power and the Emperor is the ruler of the Empire and can grant him the power he desires. You could easily see his desire in his willingness to use the Death Star against Alderaan. By doing so he immediately becomes more powerful than literally almost everyone in the Empire because he, not they, commands the Death Star. If they decide to rebel against his commands (remember, with the Imperial Senate dissolved, he has been made a defacto warlord over the territory he controls, even though he follows the Emperor) he simply waltz into their system and blows their planet up. Their fleets can't harm his station because the DS has been designed around a large scale capital ship attack, as well as the starfighter pilots not having the Force to guide their torpedoes down the exhaust port (never mind that they don't know its weakness in the first place anyway). Additionally, he serves the Emperor because if he doesn't Darth Vader comes over and chokes his scrawny self to death. Add that to the Stormtroopers who are loyal to Sidious and would gladly throw their lives away if they have to (and are proven deadly in combat, see the boarding of the Tantive IV) as well as people like Motti wishing to dispose of him and he has a VERY GOOD incentive to both follow Sidious' commands and use the Death Star as needed.

Fuck. I'm getting into this convo, even after I said I wouldn't, aren't I?! Fuck fuck, it's like Vietnam all over again! First the small assistance at first but otherwise less intrested, then slowly building up one time after another, then whaddya know I'm into a big fight!

[Cesario]

I'm well aware that in the big picture our heroes have failed, that the real victory was won by Sideous in getting elected Chancelor. That isn't hard to follow. The problem was it wasn't Sideous that our heroes were fighting during this movie.

They were fighting the Trade Federation and trying to thwart their invasion of Naboo. That's where the movie's climax was. That's what the opening crawl was about, and that's what we still don't understand twelve years down the line.

[Elfdart]

The fuck does that have to do with the blockade being legal or illegal? Are you saying Nute lied to an ambassador who would know if the blockade was legal or not?

Yep. After all, the Federation's senator denied that they had invaded Naboo. Watch the scene where Amidala speaks to Gunray at the beginning:

NUTE
I know nothing about any Ambassadors...
you must be mistaken.

AMIDALA, surprised at his reaction, studies him
carefully.
AMIDALA
Beware, Viceroy...the Federation is
going too far this time.

NUTE
Your Highness, we would never do
anything without the approval of the
Senate. You assume too much.

AMIDALA
We will see.

The QUEEN fades off, and the view screen goes black.

RUNE
She's right, the Senate will never...

So Gunray tells two baldfaced lies in one very short conversation. Which is to be expected since he's a hbad guy and all. On top of that, Rune Haako gives away the game, just to make sure the audience knows that the TF is in the wrong.

Brazen lying isn't just a tactic used by Mike Stoklassa. Fictional characters do it too.

How do you make this movie even dumber? Keep going I find it fascinating watching the hamster wheel spin as you make shit up.

I don't have to make up anything because unlike you, Heathcliff and other Red Letter Morons I actually paid attention while watching the movie.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

Most of the people who are 'defending' the film have admitted it wasn't the greatest movie in the world, just that the 'attack's are the silliest criticisms in the world. So... yeah, if you love the genera so much you're coming up with these particular nitpicks as if they are an affront to story telling, you're more of a 'fanboy' than the next guy who causally watches the film and doesn't need those nitpicks to make sense of it .

Oh good, then you can agree that RLM's assessment, while in your opinion nitpicky, is none the less accurate?

No one is saying you can't causally watch a film and ignore glaring mistakes and obtuse writing, rather we are simply saying "look at this dumb fucking idea. Pretty stupid." And it is. 30 years and Lucas gives us enemies without motivation, lifeless performances and 65 minute podrace (raynor, calm down, I'm exaggerating). But he did mange to get all of his marketing in order before releasing this hollow turd of storytelling. I don't know where I would be without my mountain dew jar jar binks can or my Naboo Chimichanga soft pack from taco bell. So at least he got those right.

[Stark]

Thnking about it, it would have been really easy to give a context to the conflict (and make the Republic seem ineffective and short-sighted) with only a few lines. Trade Federation owns a Republic concession to implement the CONTINENTAL SYSTEM and thus exclusive right to trade in a region?

Blockade legal, invasion not legal, Trade Federation greedy, Republic useless.

Only nobody needs to read a novel ($30 RRP) to 'get it'.

Y'know, when the guy who made Donnie Darko posted a huge pile of information on his website that 'makes sense' of his incoherent and stupid movie, people laughed. 'Too bad it's not in the movie', they said, 'What a cop out'.

[Elfdart]

The BLOCKADE was legal.

Says who?

Since when did Naboo owe money to the TF? The Senate levied the tax on the trade routes used by the TF.

I've put forward my theory on this in a couple posts now.

I didn't know that repeating half-baked bullshit lent credibility to the bullshit.

If you can disprove it with the movie, just do it.

It's not up to me to disprove anything, asshole.

The movie itself contains this line by Palpatine before the senate (thanks to Galvatron):

"...a tragedy has occurred which started right here with the taxation of trade routes and has now engulfed our entire planet in the oppression of the Trade Federation."

The words "right here" refer to the senate, the body that levied the tax that has the TF so up in arms.

[Cesario]

We only know that it had something to do with the taxation of trade routes. We don't know how that connects to the invasion of Naboo. We don't even know what about this taxation riled up Gunray enough to strike a deal with Sideous.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

The fuck does that have to do with the blockade being legal or illegal? Are you saying Nute lied to an ambassador who would know if the blockade was legal or not?

Yep. After all, the Federation's senator denied that they had invaded Naboo. Watch the scene where Amidala speaks to Gunray at the beginning:

NUTE
I know nothing about any Ambassadors...
you must be mistaken.

AMIDALA, surprised at his reaction, studies him
carefully.
AMIDALA
Beware, Viceroy...the Federation is
going too far this time.

NUTE
Your Highness, we would never do
anything without the approval of the
Senate. You assume too much.

AMIDALA
We will see.

The QUEEN fades off, and the view screen goes black.

RUNE
She's right, the Senate will never...

So Gunray tells two baldfaced lies in one very short conversation. Which is to be expected since he's a hbad guy and all. On top of that, Rune Haako gives away the game, just to make sure the audience knows that the TF is in the wrong.

Brazen lying isn't just a tactic used by Mike Stoklassa. Fictional characters do it too.

Oh I see you're an idiot. We're talking about the scene at the BEGINNING of the film.

The CAPTAIN looks to her view screen, where NUTE GUNRAY, a Neimoidian trade
viceroy, waits for a reply.

CAPTAIN : (cont'd) With all due respect for the Trade Federation, the
Ambassadors for the Supreme Chancellor wish to board immediately.
NUTE : Yes, yes, of course...ahhh...as you know, our blockade is perfectly
legal, and we'd be happy to receive the Ambassador...Happy to.

Look at that. People tend to lie about unknowns.

How do you make this movie even dumber? Keep going I find it fascinating watching the hamster wheel spin as you make shit up.

I don't have to make up anything because unlike you, Heathcliff and other Red Letter Morons I actually paid attention while watching the movie.

Did you? Because you would have seen that:

While the congress of the
Republic endlessly debates
this alarming chain of events

Sounds like congress knew about the blockade. That would be a weird thing to lie about, seeing as they were just debating it... endlessly.

Did congress know about the invasion? No they didn't because communications were blocked and Jedi aren't allowed to testify for some reason, most likely to make the movie exceptionally fucking dumb. Kind of like you, my dear sweet Elffart (you see what I did? I did it again so you would see it. Puns are AWESOME!)

[Galvatron]

The BLOCKADE was legal.

Says who?

Ah, so that's your new angle.

[Stark]

If the tax was a tax owed to the TF, via some concession they control or tariff they collect, then the blockade could have been more a stunt to show that it is right and fair that they do so as a response to some kind of political threat to their established priviledges.

I mean, if Valorum was trying to oust huge corporations from their predatory position controlling the trade of outer worlds, obviously they'd see this as a serious threat, rather than one tiny planet not giving them some cash.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

"...a tragedy has occurred which started right here with the taxation of trade routes and has now engulfed our entire planet in the oppression of the Trade Federation."

The words "right here" refer to the senate, the body that levied the tax that has the TF so up in arms.

Good work Detective. Hey, doesn't the TF own the senate? Weird that the body they own taxed them, but they are pretty dumb so maybe the TF just got confused.