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'Lakeenah savagely ripped organs from the human's body, stuffing them greedily into her mouth. Suddenly she paused, an inexplicable apprehension filling her mind. She glanced through the trees... nothing moved. Slowly, she looked up. There were now five stars flashing above her head. In GTA:Armageddon, that can mean only one thing she thought, they're sending UNIT after me.'

Apologies for that rather bland link section. On an unrelated note there should be a fun surprise coming up shortly after the attack on Detroit.

All plotlines became linear and predictable, evil demons, kickass humans, I presume the end would be kicking god's ass and that's it.

I would be very surprised if they aren't some significant reversals to come. For all the cheerful talk of invading heaven, the humans haven't even found a way to get there yet.

JN1 wrote:
Haig, I think would do very well. Most of the techniques that modern armies take for granted were pioneered by the BEF/BAF while it was under his command. Modern armoured vehicles and comms would give him the things he was always looking for - mobility and a way to effectively control a large army. Plus he's the only British general to have experience of commanding a really large army; 21st AG would easily be swallowed whole by the BAF at its peak.

Haig, with his record, would also be publically and politically unpopular, and then are other generals, like Alexander or Alanbrooke, who certainly have the ability to manage large armies and one or two earlier general could namely Marlborough and Wellington. Of course Its probably moot as they cannot return to Earth.

Personally I think we should, and we certainly have the manpower to support one. It all depends on how long the war lasts and on the needs of Home Defence.

Indeed, similar situation for my nation albeit at a smaller level, certainly we would look to send to hell/heaven a reinforced division with two at home but only after some time, probably two years.

Starglider wrote:

All plotlines became linear and predictable, evil demons, kickass humans, I presume the end would be kicking god's ass and that's it.

I would be very surprised if they aren't some significant reversals to come. For all the cheerful talk of invading heaven, the humans haven't even found a way to get there yet.

And, rather unlike Hell, I doubt Heaven's opening act in the war will involve blithely dispatching an angelic army to their doom at the hands of a fully mechanized Human army. They're quite clearly keeping a close eye on things, and from what I've seen of the Archangel Michael to date, he isn't exactly stupid. Nor does Yahweh seem to share Satan's more excessive habits.

Starglider wrote:For all the cheerful talk of invading heaven, the humans haven't even found a way to get there yet.

I'd figure they'd know whatever Abigor does, at least.

Haig, with his record, would also be publically and politically unpopular,

Successfully leading the largest British Army in the field to victory over the most powerful army of the age, helping to pioneer modern combined arms tactics, supporting inovation in weapons. I'd say that was a pretty good record.
Zhukov lost lots of men fighting the Germans, but I've never seen him labeled a butcher, or a bungler.

If the public and politicians think otherwise then they need to read more history books, preferably not the ones by Clark and Laffin. Anyway a WW1 debate is for another time.

JN1 wrote:
If the public and politicians think otherwise then they need to read more history books, preferably not the ones by Clark and Laffin.

But they don't, and they do think otherwise.

Anyway a WW1 debate is for another time.

And irrelevant, unless he gets an appointment native to Hell.

But they don't, and they do think otherwise.

Which is extremely unjust of them considering all he did for this country, and I guess by extension the Commonwealth. Oh well, I guess there's no changing preconceived ideas now.

And irrelevant, unless he gets an appointment native to Hell.

Very true, same goes for the Iron Duke. It would be interesting to rescue Cromwell though. I wonder what he would think if he knew that Britain was still a Monarchy?

I wonder who would be the senior British general (i.e. post 1707) in Hell? Marlborough maybe.

JN1 wrote:

But they don't, and they do think otherwise.

Which is extremely unjust of them considering all he did for this country, and I guess by extension the Commonwealth. Oh well, I guess there's no changing preconceived ideas now.

There are some things that Haig was not right about, and he can and should be held accountable for that, but he is not the incompetent fool thought of by history. He commanded at, perhaps, an unfortunate time in warfare.

Very true, same goes for the Iron Duke.

Shame really, I think he is the best of the British Generals/Field Marhals.

It would be interesting to rescue Cromwell though. I wonder what he would think if he knew that Britain was still a Monarchy?

I suspect that he wouldn't be surprised given that he was offered the throne.

I wonder who would be the senior British general (i.e. post 1707) in Hell? Marlborough maybe.

I think a more pertinent question would be who is acceptable for service; Marlborough was as much a politician as he was a general, which caused problems in government and to Queen Anne, Wellington was a superb army/army group commander/diplomat, but was terrible as Commander in Chief, a lot of the faults of the Crimea are his to bear, for example.

So if I'm reading the comments right, the gorgon will attempt to attack the nearby village and fails miserably as she gets perforated, while Belial dumps lava on Detroit but finds out that the whole city has been evacuated?

Eulogy wrote:So if I'm reading the comments right, the gorgon will attempt to attack the nearby village and fails miserably as she gets perforated, while Belial dumps lava on Detroit but finds out that the whole city has been evacuated?

Humans are still trying to figure out why Hell decided to obliterate Sheffield. Detroit'll probably never know what hit it.

There are some things that Haig was not right about, and he can and should be held accountable for that, but he is not the incompetent fool thought of by history. He commanded at, perhaps, an unfortunate time in warfare.

Haig was no military genius, few generals are, but I would rate him very highly, certainly up there with Alex and Monty. WW1 was probably the only war where a senior commander could not influence the course of battle with his voice, a point Major General Julian Thompson, RM made recently on a programme about the Somme.

Shame really, I think he is the best of the British Generals/Field Marshals.

I agree, though I wonder how he would cope with modern fighting methods. I think most generals from WW1 and WW2 were probably flexible to adapt.
O/T an interesting factoid is that more British generals were killed, or became casualties due to enemy action in WW1 than in WW2.

I think a more pertinent question would be who is acceptable for service;

It's got to be a choice between Alex, Slim, or Carver then (maybe Hackett?), IMVHO. They were all talented generals with the ability to work well with allies and command reasonably large forces.

JN1 wrote:Which is extremely unjust of them considering all he did for this country, and I guess by extension the Commonwealth. Oh well, I guess there's no changing preconceived ideas now.

May depend on where people end up in hell - if everyone from WW1 is in the one place, it's possible we may end up liberating a large chunk of the BEF in one go. Since Haig was - apparently - very highly regarded by the troops he led, in such a situation he's a natural for command.

After reading this, and learning a few more rules of this universe, why humanity is assaulting Hell first makes much more sense. However, I can't help but wonder - can "dead" humans from Hell be transported to Heaven with no ill effects?

If so, humanity has won this war already, simply due to a complete lack of attrition. A soldier dies, is reborn in hell, is met near-immediately by Hell Personnel Recovery Teams, and goes right where needed.

If this is true, it also raises a couple interesting sociological questions for if humanity manages to win both wars. Questions like, how would human society and psychology be affected if dying was a temporary setback to what one was doing, at best? What would happen if everyone realized that humans are now the designers of their own "afterlives?"

Eulogy wrote:while Belial dumps lava on Detroit but finds out that the whole city has been evacuated?

How would the humans know which city to evacuate? Unless you're proposing that human governments preemptively evacuate all city centres? The global economic consequences of that would actually make the attacks a considerable strategic win, but not even Belial is optimistic enough to expect the humans to start scattering after one strike (a single strike can be talked down as an isolated disaster; a second strike shortly afterwards creates a very clear implication of 'you could be next').

If you mean Dr Kuroneko's experimental early warning network, consider that at Sheffield the time between the first (theoretically) detectable emissions and the lava pouring through was about half an hour. Even if the network was fully installed and debugged (note that this is an undertaking comparable in scope to setting up the first radar networks, e.g. Chain Home; piggybacking on mobile phone networks is good for proof of concept but there are much bigger areas to cover), this is a very short window to verify that the attack is real and evacuate a major metropolis.

Rhoenix wrote:If so, humanity has won this war already, simply due to a complete lack of attrition. A soldier dies, is reborn in hell, is met near-immediately by Hell Personnel Recovery Teams, and goes right where needed.

I'm pretty sure that reincarnated humans who die in heaven stay dead (if the damage was enough to overcome their regenerative abilities), the same way they do in hell. Earth humans who die in heaven most likely get reincarnated somewhere else in heaven.

I read about your "fun surprise" blurb and made a guess...

Eulogy wrote:I read about your "fun surprise" blurb and made a guess...

Sorr; my definition of 'fun' may be a little nonstandard. After all I started contributing to this story because I wanted to make the demons more interesting and capable opponents.

Well that and the fact that the story clearly needed more girls with tails

The time it takes to evacuate a major urban area in a first-world country is measured in days, not hours. There will be much death in Detroit.

pdf27 wrote:

JN1 wrote:Which is extremely unjust of them considering all he did for this country, and I guess by extension the Commonwealth. Oh well, I guess there's no changing preconceived ideas now.

May depend on where people end up in hell - if everyone from WW1 is in the one place, it's possible we may end up liberating a large chunk of the BEF in one go. Since Haig was - apparently - very highly regarded by the troops he led, in such a situation he's a natural for command.

Now that would be very good as they were one of the best trained and experienced armies we've ever fielded. There is also the prospect of finding the likes of Plummer, Horne, Currie, Rawlinson, Byng, Monash, Allenby and many of the talented corps and division commanders too.
Haig was never loved, but his soldiers did by and large respect him a great deal. He was a very popular choice as first president of the British Legion, and don't forget it's his name on the Poppy (the Earl Haig fund).

JN1 wrote:
I agree, though I wonder how he would cope with modern fighting methods. I think most generals from WW1 and WW2 were probably flexible to adapt.

Its hard to say, really, I look at the WW2 generation, my grandparents, they adapted from an era of what was still horse and cart, few cars, primitive radio and limited electricity to the modern era with great ease. In the case of Wellington, or any general, do we get him as he was as an old man with limited hearing and eyesight and, to be honest, not a good grip on a changing world, or the vital energetic commander who defeated army after French army in Portugal and Spain? Its the ability to adapt that counts, if we get the Young Wellington of Assaye, Talavera, Barossa or Waterloo etc, then I have no doubt he will adapt when given the army list with units, a lot of which he will recognise, their roles and a good number of months to study history and modern military text. If we get the elderly Wellington, then I would not even bother, he was to hidebound and inflexible to adapt.

O/T an interesting factoid is that more British generals were killed, or became casualties due to enemy action in WW1 than in WW2.

I did not know that! one learns something new every day. Not surprising, I guess, I look at NZ's own General Freyburg..man was a walking sieve by 1918.

It's got to be a choice between Alex, Slim, or Carver then (maybe Hackett?), IMVHO. They were all talented generals with the ability to work well with allies and command reasonably large forces.

Indeed, all of those would do the Job, I would not rule out Alan-Brooke in some capacity. Of course, the question that must arise, what army are they to command, and with what equipment and logistics base and economy to support it?

JN1 wrote:

pdf27 wrote:

JN1 wrote:Which is extremely unjust of them considering all he did for this country, and I guess by extension the Commonwealth. Oh well, I guess there's no changing preconceived ideas now.

May depend on where people end up in hell - if everyone from WW1 is in the one place, it's possible we may end up liberating a large chunk of the BEF in one go. Since Haig was - apparently - very highly regarded by the troops he led, in such a situation he's a natural for command.

Now that would be very good as they were one of the best trained and experienced armies we've ever fielded. There is also the prospect of finding the likes of Plummer, Horne, Currie, Rawlinson, Byng, Monash, Allenby and many of the talented corps and division commanders too.

You forgot Wilson.

Stuart Mackey wrote:I did not know that! one learns something new every day. Not surprising, I guess, I look at NZ's own General Freyburg..man was a walking sieve by 1918.

In fact, more British division commanders were killed/fatally wounded in action during a single battle during WW1 - Loos; Maj. Gen. Tommy Capper GOC 7 Division (shot in the lungs leading 2/Worcestershires in a renewed, and successful, attack), Maj. Gen. G.H. Thesiger GOC 9 Division (dunno know what exactly happened to him), and Maj. Gen. F.D.V. Wing GOC 12 Division (killed by German shelling while returning from a visit to the front lines) - than were killed by enemy fire during the entirety of WW2.

Edward Yee wrote: But for the "Washington being surprised at being saluted," he could simply be informed that a national law specially gives him seniority over any other military officer in U.S. history, with him presumably only answering to the POTUS and certain staff (SECDEF, CJCS?). Whether he'd be okay with that is another thing...

People like Washington, Wellington, Bonaparte, et al, need not have command authority. They can be placed on the Retired (Deceased) List - for those who were not already retired when they died. I don't think Washington, for instance, he'd any military post after he left the Presidency.

If that did become a problem, then Congress can always promote Petraeus to seven star rank, even if only temporarily. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if Russia created a new Chief Senior Marshal of the Russian Federation rank for folks like Suvorov and Zhukov!

R011 wrote:
People like Washington, Wellington, Bonaparte, et al, need not have command authority. They can be placed on the Retired (Deceased) List - for those who were not already retired when they died. I don't think Washington, for instance, he'd any military post after he left the Presidency.

Then what of G.J Ceasar running things in Hell? is he to be 'retired'? I think demonstrated ability or adaptability would be a better gauge, but to be honest a lot is going to come down to 'command what?'.

JN1 wrote: I does strike me that once we start rescuing more people we're going to have an awful lot of Field Marshals, Admirals of the Fleet and Marshals of the Royal Air Force (Dowding and Harris would be on my list for rescuing too).

Actually, IIRC, Dowding got somewhat gypped - he never made MRAF, just Air Chief Marshal. Made 1st Baron Dowding, though.

R011 wrote:If that did become a problem, then Congress can always promote Petraeus to seven star rank, even if only temporarily.

Won't work. By Public Law; no officer may outrank George Washington; he's there by dint of seniority.