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The old Casey is the last of my "Lira" going out of style. Collect them while you still can, the ROB is replacing them.

Ok Stas, I did my part. Now you need to make the Alliances thread.

How about this:

Coastal Patrol Boats/Corvettes-- 4 months to build
Hydrofoil add +1 month

Frigates----------------------------- 8 months
Destroyers-------------------------10 months
Cruisers----------------------------12 months
Amphibious Assault ships---------14 months
Cruiser-Carriers-------------------16 months
Battlecruisers----------------------18 months
Nuclear powered: +2 months

Submarine, SSK-------------------10 months
Submarine, SSN-------------------12 months
Submarine, SSBN-----------------16 months


Squadron, Fighters, Air Superiority: 10 months
Squadron, Fighter-Bomber---------- 12 months
Squadron, Tactical Bomber--------- 14 months
Squadron, Bomber, LR Strategic----16 months


Division, Infantry-------------- 10 months
Division, Armored--------------12 months
+2 months for "Medium/Marine"
+4 months for "Heavy"

Stas Bush wrote:DarthShady
Okay, let's see what you can do

Your GDP is 6 billion, undaunting military expenses would be in the range of 0,1-0,5 billion, 60% spend on maintenance/pay, while the other 30-40% is spent on production/aquisition of new weapons and R&D, the R&D being between 10 and 20% of overall military spending

Since your military is small and you don't have a military industry with R&D to spend on, you probably could have around 50% for new procurement - meaning 50 to 250 million per year, depending on your warlike-ness

It's really sad but you'd have to order SFRY arms from someone else (does anyone here have a SFRY arms industry anyway?). I could sell you Russian/Soviet weaponry.

Here's what you and I could do:
For immegiate procurement, you could have probably a Mil-24 or two and around 2-3 Mi-8 supply craft; they would alone eat up around 10 million in maintenance probably but you can do that (you should remember that maintenance costs for tech alone shouldn't rise more than 20 to 125 billion since else it means your people are underpaid, military bases are in disarray and command structure is on cheap vodka) of course you can't maintain it so these expenses go not into your military industry but into mine. To get something military you'd have to copycat a design like the Chinese, which takes some years and R&D.

A Mi-24 (single chopper) would probably cost you around 500,000 to 1,000,000 in operation costs yearly, depending on how much you fly it. A Mi-8 would be twice lower costs of op. So all your force is capable and you could try to order something for FY-2009 which is due next week Mi-24 procurement is also around 800,000 - 1,000,000 USD per 1 machine.

An An-26 costs around 50 000 USD, so place an order for a military transport fleet and you could get an airmobile army actually

For 2,5 million USD (this is actually a huge discount, An-26 sales in 2000 Turkey went for 80K I'm ready to supply the Shady Empire with a fleet of 50 An-25s that could move, well, most of it's army leaving a little home reserve

BTR-60s would cost around 150 000 probably per unit (maintenance costs for AFVs are low and not as obscene as airforce so not detailed here)

MiG-21s would cost you around 5 000 000 per unit (with maintenance costs overhead around 500 K yearly, remember) semi-new, and MiG-29 new production runs (there aren't obsolete stockpiles in this world) are 25-30 million USD each with a 500K-1000000 annual support cost per machine.

Choose wisely

Stas, thanks man. You're the best.

I think my first purchase shall be the An-25 fleet. And i have to think about the rest of this stuff.

How long does it take to Research stuff? Stas? Beuller?

I don't think defentivie timelines would be ideal in terms of research, in general the reaction to early pronouncements tends to produce appropriate retcons. That being said there do seem to be quite a few technologies and activities that appear to be popping up relatively quickly and with little substance given the economic and educaitonal resources of the given nations (practical railguns would be one thought though I'm not sure if that one got retconned or not).

Well, the thing is, I'm under the impression that the tech levels on this new planet are the same as modern Earth, meaning that some things don't even really need to be researched much at all--like new types of Zeppelins, a 100-year-old technology...

Coyote wrote:Well, the thing is, I'm under the impression that the tech levels on this new planet are the same as modern Earth, meaning that some things don't even really need to be researched much at all--like new types of Zeppelins, a 100-year-old technology...

Oh I'm not referring to that, rather its a more general statemnt that based on the economics base each nation has there seem to be a few folks who have gotten over ambitious but I'd rather say broadly that projects should not exceed the economic, educaitonal, and manpower resources given in the OP rather than point out one by one things that seem off because I'd rather folks write their way into a realistic nation than be a nitpicking bastard.

Just wanted to ask, is it possible to join the game in this phase ? If so, what info(I suppose map and basic info about the country) should I post and where ? Also is it possible to choose a place on the map or Stas decides ?

anybody_mcc wrote:Just wanted to ask, is it possible to join the game in this phase ? If so, what info(I suppose map and basic info about the country) should I post and where ? Also is it possible to choose a place on the map or Stas decides ?

Put together some basic country information based upon the OP which is included in the reference thread sticky in this forum. Once you've got a name, a leader, and whatever else you want (a picture of what your country looks like would be helpful) post it in the reference thread and start announcinng yourself...realistically...in these threads. Also you can basically state you are located somewhere but if that doesn't make sense you may be moved otherwise most requests are honored near as I can tell.

Coyote

Coastal Patrol Boats/Corvettes-- 4 months to build
Hydrofoil add +1 month

Frigates----------------------------- 8 months
Destroyers-------------------------10 months
Cruisers----------------------------12 months
Amphibious Assault ships---------14 months
Cruiser-Carriers-------------------16 months
Battlecruisers----------------------18 months
Nuclear powered: +2 months

Submarine, SSK-------------------10 months
Submarine, SSN-------------------12 months
Submarine, SSBN-----------------16 months


Squadron, Fighters, Air Superiority: 10 months
Squadron, Fighter-Bomber---------- 12 months
Squadron, Tactical Bomber--------- 14 months
Squadron, Bomber, LR Strategic----16 months


Division, Infantry-------------- 10 months
Division, Armored--------------12 months
+2 months for "Medium/Marine"
+4 months for "Heavy"

For the sake of ease, why not put 1 year procurement for all types of generic weaponry sans submarines, air carriers, assault ships and battlecruisers - the heavy stuff - those put at 2 year procurement?

Why I'm saying this is that realistically with such budgets as we have, affording heavy ships in one go does not sound too realistic. Maybe I'm a pessimist, but Russia has a 50 billion overall military budget and it's hard pressed to launch new ships.

About research - if you R&D something that has a real-world analogue, look to how much was actually spent on it. If it's something not tested (no prototypes) you should go for full cycle which is generally no less than a few years for test type machinery alone. Then serial runs.

That's fine, Stas, I was just trying to find some sort of parameter. I play in a Star Wars STGOD over at SB.com where we use a list like this for ships.

That's not a purely military game so going too detailed about it may not be required.

Anyway procurement is also intuitively more or less clear; a Spain sized nation with around half it's GDP should not be able to procure military stuff at the same rate as the United States; it's military industrial sector is decidedly smaller.

I'll look to Spain as a clue especially as you're essentially it, from most expensive to least expensive class:
Carrier lay-to-launch: 4 years, to comission another 6 years, ten years overall (no R&D, no project times since we're at tech level)

Frigate lay-to-commission: 2 years

Duh everything else fits in between those two.

Since Spain vests 16 billion in military, it's pretty possible to do it slightly faster with racking up ME to 25 billion, probably - double the cost, twice less constructin time ahoy!

Incidentally I'm willing to stick to those figures, if carrier procurement takes 10 years (5 months real time) people won't be racking carrier fleets like mad and actually be careful with their God-given assets!

anybody_mcc wrote:Also is it possible to choose a place on the map or Stas decides ?

It probably depends a bit on the size of your nation. There are more places a Duchy can squeeze into than a Tsardom, after all.

Speaking of the map, as Stas has said, horizontally we just have lots of empty ocean, if needed would it be possible to have two seperate maps (so as not to totally kill formatting), divided into an "Eastern" and "Western" hemisphere?

At the moment I doubt we'll need it, but if more large post-count members start showing up, it might be easier than having us expand vertically upward. Especially since the smaller nations in the Central Sea are already pretty boxed-in as it is, it'd be hard for them to interact with larger nations way north or south of us.

Navy procurement rules beamed up. Spain is a good example and technically from Kingdom to Imperium it remains a good rule-of-thumb for Navy things.

Special projects are of course up to the leader to finance and put terms and deadlines, but since Naval construction is remarkably longer than all other military procurement (1 year), I decided to get this up.

Also, no spam fleets which is good.

For land area remember that an "Imperium", at 1,000,000 square kilometers, is a little bigger than Egypt, at 980,869 sq. km. (20,001+, Supermods and Administrators).

A "Tsardom", with 500,000 sq. km. is about the size of Spain...504,030 sq.km. (5,001 - 20,000 posts).

A "Kingdom", at 250,000 km, is about the size of Italy sans Sicily & Sardinia. (2,501-5,000 Posts).

A "Principality", at 35,000 sq. km, is slightly smaller that Switzerland, at 41,285 sq.km. (1,001-2,500 posts).

A "Duchy", at 7,500 sq.km, is slightly smaller than the island of Crete, at 8,336 sq.km. (50-1,000 posts [or having a negative custom title]).

Actually, a principality is almost exactly the size of the Netherlands.

Except, of course, far, far less developed

Okay, I'm gonna clarify my Railgun Project. I announced it when things weren't so clear, so I'm willing to shelve it or at least shove it to some corner with decreased priority. I guess it'll be my equivalent of a Project HARP but... with magnets! Or a saner Project Babylon.

I'm keeping my fat-subs But since they're quick designs, the first sub will be a trouble-riddled SSGN full-scale prototype that ended up being field-tested in Syndromian waters. The second sub - just recently deployed - is better, and the first sub is going home to get fixed. No more fat-subs are gonna get built.

Shroom Man 777 wrote: I'm keeping my fat-subs But since they're quick designs, the first sub will be a trouble-riddled SSGN full-scale prototype that ended up being field-tested in Syndromian waters. The second sub - just recently deployed - is better, and the first sub is going home to get fixed. No more fat-subs are gonna get built.

I voted for letting you keep them because, let's face it: Having nuke subs called "Yer Mom" and "Yer Face" running around is just too hilarious to lose

EDIT: I posted my budget for FY2009. This should give people some ideas on what you can do, even with a small country (in peacetime)

Army and Marines: (2x British Army roughly)
Standing: 400,000 personnel
Main Battle Tanks: ~772 [Challenger 2s]
Infantry fighting vehicles ~1334 [Bradleys]
APCs ~ 8000 [M113 + AAVs]
Recon units (tracked or wheeled) ~1000 [LAVIIIs and FV101 Scorpions]
Jeep ~30 000 [Land Rovers]
Armored transport ~4000 [choose type(s)]
Utility Trucks ~4600 [if you want to, choose type(s)]
Artillery pieces and mortar ~5800 [choose type(s)]
Air Defence ~674 [choose type(s)]

This is what I've got so far. The bolded bits are blanks that need filling up. Tell me if this list is decent and if the force composition avoids any penalties for being mish-mashed. I'm not too hot on the penalty thing - I mean, just 'cause I got Challengers working with Bradleys? Come on

Urm. I have decided to give my airforce an all US-fighter composition, so I might need help with that.

Where do I fill in my helicopters?

Copters... I just picked what I felt was cool by me, within the military abilities. Can't help you here.

The force is fine actually. And you could always detail some parts later

By the way guys, all this brouhaha over "airspace wah wah I shutz it down!' has prompted me to launch the JSEZ ("We fly undaunted!") project.

If confidential talks with Canissia are at least partly succesful, the JSEZ may signify the birth of a common free rocket launch zone.

HARP is a good project; and it according to wiki costs only 10 million USD in R&D (not counting the gun construction probably)

In can help a bit in the Artillery pieces.
In terms of Self-propelled howitzer I would take Bandkanon 1C (Self Propelled Gun 1C) due to its high rate of fire (14 rounds in 45 seconds, this means that it has fired its last round before the first has even landed). It was also designed to fire tactical nuclear rounds .
If you want something newer and less maintenance intensive you should go for Panzerhaubitze 2000, while it don't have quite ass high rate of fire (10 rounds in 56 seconds) and is way faster on and off-road.
It also has the most manly silencer ever!

I guess you could say my project is a HARP + real-life railgun tests.

But either way, the project's been suspended. Due to those perfidious Paleopacifist Party penny-pinchers! ALLITERATIONS!

Okay. I have revised my... OOB or whatever it is. I have a more comprehensive military and airforce now.



The Sovereignty of SHROOMANIA

Land Area: Large

Population: 38 million

The Mushroom Military: Volunteer military though the public's secondary schooling includes some training

Navy:
2 Yer Mom class mothership submarines: the SSMMNs Yer Mom and the Yer Face - very very large and very very advanced submarines that can deploy recon UCAVs, special forces teams, or cruise missile strikes.

12 Dolphin-class diesel submarines

1 Nimitz-class carrier – the Flattop (with 24 F-14D and 36 F-35C Lightning II fighter aircraft, along with support aircraft – i.e. electronic attack, tankers, etc.)

16 Arleigh Burke-class destroyers

60 Halifax class Frigates

Airforce:
The Shroomanian Airforce (SAF) is composed of 240 modern jet fighters and additional support aircraft. The pilots are extremely competent as they are given ace training in a Top Gun air combat institute along with their counterparts in the Navy (60 pilots).

The SAF is composed of the following fighter aircraft:
F-22 Raptor - 80 Units
F-35A Lightning II – 60 Units
F-15 E Strike Eagle – 50 Units
F-16F Fighting Falcon – 50 Units

Along with (since these are technically not jet fighters):
B-1B Lancer – 5 Units
A-10 Thunderbolt II – 30 Units (for Army assistance)
A number of Mil-spec attack helicopters and gunships (also for Army assistance)
Support aircraft


Army and Marines: (2x British Army roughly)
Standing: 400,000 personnel
Main Battle Tanks: 772 Challenger 2s
Infantry fighting vehicles: 1334 Bradleys
APCs: 8000 M113 + AAVs
Recon units (tracked or wheeled) ~1000 LAVIIIs and FV101 Scorpions
Jeep ~30 000 Land Rovers
Armored transport - 4000 [choose type(s)]
Utility Trucks - 4600 [if you want to, choose type(s)]
Artillery pieces and mortar - 5800 [choose type(s)]
Air Defence - 674 [choose type(s)]

Special Branch:
Developing defensive ABM railguns (suspended)
Developing special submarines (completed)

GDP: $750 billion USD

Main Industries: agriculture and fisheries (major food exporter to the FUNGAL AXIS nations), minerals (from the mountain ranges), geothermal energy (also from the mountain ranges), construction (working together with the Red Technocracy to develop smaller nations, such as FUNGAL AXIS constituents), consumer electronics, research into advanced technology, and medicine

Map:


Government: Parliamentary with socialist tendencies, current leader is Prime Minister Shroom the Seven Hundred Seventy Seventh, there are no term limitations.

Membership:
FUNGAL AXIS - the small nations of the world are welcomed to join!
FYTO (Fuck Yeah Treaty Organization)
APCS (Allied Peacekeeping Committee on Syndromia)

Currently accomplished:
Pacification of the Shadow Empire
Creation of a class of advanced mothership submarines - the Yer Mom
Assisted in joint peacekeeping mission in Syndromia (ongoing)
Investment in space projects with the Red Technocracy and the Technocratic Greater Co-Prosperity Alliance (also known as the Alliance of Advanced Nuclear Research and Space)
Establishment of friendly relations with many of the great and small nations in the world
Raising awareness on the dangers of rogue aggressor states



The FUNGAL AXIS:

Shroomania (me)
Glorious People's Republican Democracy of Blasitification (Losonti Tokash)
Kingdom of Republicburgstatesville (NeoGoomba)
Kingdom of Triolia (Triol)
The Vortex Empire (The Vortex Empire)
Grand Duchy of Vanaheim (Vanas)
The Shadow Empire (Darth Shady)
Rail Republic of Caniba (Redleader34)
Republic of One (Zablorg)
New Gottland (Decue)
Republic of Vulpesia (WesFox13)
Sovereign Duchy of Baerne (Master_Baerne)
Duchy of Langley (Shinn Langley Soryu)


The privileges of joining the FUNGAL AXIS include the mutual social, economic, political and military support of each and every member with the purpose of prosperity for all.

The FUNGAL AXIS provides mutual defense for its member nations, with each and every Axis nation fully aiding one another in the event of foreign aggression (by non-member nations). Should any member nation partake in military campaigns, commitments or initiatives, then other FUNGAL AXIS nations can volunteer their assistance.

Moreover, aside from the mutual benefits Axis nations gain from one another, Shroomania's membership in the FYTO (Fuck Yeah Treaty Organization) means that the FUNGAL constituent nations can, by extension, gain the aid of the FYTO and its considerable military assets in the Task Force Cuntpuncher.

Nonetheless, the FUNGAL AXIS is thoroughly committed to international peace and stability - as evident in its interventions in the Shadow Empire and the Zorian-Syndromia conflicts.

Shroomania has followed and joined the leading world powers in the pursuit of technology and science (be they conventional or Weird) and the FUNGAL AXIS ensures that the developing member nations also gain benefits from the ventures of larger FUNGAL AXIS nations. An example of this would be the joint Shroomanian-Red Technocratic development projects that construct tall and mighty erections to aid the progress of friendly nations.

These are a few of the many benefits of membership with the FUNGAL AXIS, and Shroomania speaks for its allies in saying that the nations of the FUNGAL AXIS would also stand to benefit greatly from alliances with the friendly nations of the League of Unaligned Nations. The sharing of culture, trade, technology, and assistance would benefit all of us in the international community.

sent you some SSN nitpicks. technically a proposal to make them yet non commissioned hulls, not to raise complaints, and give the a few drydock years (not uncommon terms for ship finalization, full armament and such). how to retcon them used for Syndromian bypass also proposed.