More Trektardism

[Stark]

Because the hard part of a steam engine is producing the steam, not turning that steam into circular motion... oh no wait that's bollocks.

It's not like the principles of steam expansion were known long before a machine for converting it into rotary motion was developed. I mean, this just just tripped over one day and said 'huh what's this steam stuff, this machine coincidentally turns wheels'.

[Darth Wong]

geysers

Because the hard part of a steam engine is producing the steam, not turning that steam into circular motion... oh no wait that's bollocks.

For the purposes of the argument in question, any method of converting that energy to any other form meets the requirement. It does not have to be a specific form.

[Peptuck]

So, it looks like this moron who runs Starfleetjedi.net doesn't even understand the most basic rules of electronic warfare. When he's confronted by the powerful jamming field of the Death Star, he says that Federation sensors would go right through it, and backs this up with numerous instances of points where the Fed sensors perform all these amazing feats of picking up distant objects.....and completely ignores the point that none of these feats of stunning sensitivity in regards to Fed sensors help when dealing with things that disrupt sensors.

And even his examples of Trek "superiority" in these regards don't match up. For example:

Compare, for the moment, the bulky hand-held portable sensor that the stormtroopers tried to use to search the Falcon... failing to detect life forms beneath a thin sheet of metal... with a palm-size tricorder able to differentiate similar humanoid species by examining the thermal buttprint left behind on a chair.

Yeah, so scanning a chair is the same thing as penetrating a smuggling compartment specifically designed to defeat those kinds of sensors, eh?

[Ritterin Sophia]

Trek sensors were jammed by a fucking trasformer, why would they go through a TIE/ln TIE Fighter's ECM let alone the Death Stars?

[Batman]

They wouldn't. That was sort of Peptuck's point.

[PeZook]

Yeah, so scanning a chair is the same thing as penetrating a smuggling compartment specifically designed to defeat those kinds of sensors, eh?

What, you don't know? If it looks slick and hi-tech, it's obviously better than stupid bulky sensors! I mean, it's common sense, man!

And again, why he hell does it matter? Are warships supposed to, you know, fight, or read newspapers from 1 AU away?

If all I had was a knife, and there was a Leopard tank coming at me on an open field, a tricorder would at most help me identify the exact point in time at which I shit my pants.

Don't let these guys drag you off into pointless tangents. The Empire has an advantage in weapons, shields and strategic speed, which makes any other fancy Fed techno-tricks and capabilities completely irrelevant.

The Empire can strike whereever it wants, in overwhelming force evey time. They can strike from outer reaches of the Trek galaxy, where they can't be attacked, at any point they deem strategically important. Even if their ships were pitifully weak they'd still be able to defeat the Federation with trivial ease. And if any idiots try to argue that hyperspace needs detailed maps...well, it's not like the Federation can stop the Imperials from sending billions of probe droids to map out Federation territorry, now can it?

It's literally like a nuclear war between the US and Japan. The Japanese may make good cars with nice gas mileage, but they can't do jack shit if US missiles come screaming down upon their cities and obliterate them in an orgy of violence.

[Peptuck]

Pretty much my point, right there.

One of my favorite responses to Trektard claims regarding things like trilithium torpedoes is their strategic uselessness when coupled with slow warp drive. As always, Trektards become so focused on the individual technology that they fail to look at the larger picture, in which this wondrous technology is useless because of other limitations.

[PeZook]

Pretty much my point, right there.

One of my favorite responses to Trektard claims regarding things like trilithium torpedoes is their strategic uselessness when coupled with slow warp drive. As always, Trektards become so focused on the individual technology that they fail to look at the larger picture, in which this wondrous technology is useless because of other limitations.

That's typical of simplistic thinking, and it shows up everywhere. There are Wehrmacht fanboys harping on various German uberweapons, for example, who fail to see how their deployment would fail to give any strategic advantage to the Reich, or GWB ignoring all other strategic considerations of Iraq, in favor of his wanktastic view of reality.

I always find it hilarious. Especially when, if shown how massively superior Imperial strategic mobility is, they start crowing how transwarp is just as fast! As if any technology from any part of Star Trek is automatically an advantage in any possible scenario, no matter who has it or how limited it is.

[Tribun]

I better ask about it.

Reading through the Starfleetjedi board, I got the distinct impression that this is a circle of ~20 people at best, following their doctrine. Is that number really so low, because that would be telling.

[Tribun]

Sorry for the double post, but afte reading through the site itself (astoundingly, the board is only part of it), I wonder if this is a franchise of Darkstar. They basically copy all of his ideas point for point. But at least Darkie worked on how to format his site, because Starfleetjedi looks...well... Let's say some people should stay away from HTML.

[Connor MacLeod]

The guy who apparently runs Starfleetjedi.com has shown up in the thread now. Maybe we can get someone worth debating with now.

So, to describe the event: A small tree is exploded by fire from an AT-ST. Note that the trunk is not burnt; it merely is burst by vaporizing water. Energy of this event: 1-10 megajoules, depending on how big the tree is.

There's just nothing new under the sun at all for Trekkies, is there? From 1996:

We've covered this already! The blasters' intensity were toned town to fry ewoks, not deforestation. And yes, SW weapons have power settings, says so in the tech manual. This goes for hand blasters and AT-ST guns. I quote: "Power output can be varied on most models; the highest setting on most blasters will VAPORIZE any material short of carbon-fiber-reinforced durasteel. Minimum settings {will stun}"

The funny thing is, the DVD versions of ROTJ have at least one other tree (a much thicker one, you have ewoks in the foreground to measure off of) which is noticably blasted apart in that same fashion, enough that it blasts the tree in half and sends it crashing down (IIRC). I remember thinking it might be easily in the tens or hundreds of MJ range if we went by the "other" tree. and IIRC it was burning.

Edit: Besides, if you want to be pedantic, we never actually SEE those shots come frfom the AT AT (there's a scene change.) For all we know those are stormtrooper shots

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah, so scanning a chair is the same thing as penetrating a smuggling compartment specifically designed to defeat those kinds of sensors, eh?

1.) I'm pretty sure that's how lifeform sensors work (Thinking Guri in SOTE)

2.) I like it how it's assumed that something like a smuggler's compartment would NOT be shielded against scans. Because its not like, you know, Han would smuggle anything in there that he might want to avoid being detected.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yes, Darkstar is actually insisting on a literal interpretation of a statement that talks about DRAGONS living in stars.

Nothing new, once again. Timmy Jones did the same thing. Funny how the opening crawl (the highest form of canon) says the Death Star itself has the power to blow up planets.

Nevermind that the reactor underwent a "chain reaction" - as I remember fusion reactor's don't explode. Nevermind that "starships" can reer to anything from small craft to capital ships.

Moreover, if we want to drag novels into it, the ANH novel specified that the Death Star worked off "matter to energy" conversion.

Hell, Darkstar's clearly ignoring the fact the selfsame novel indicates that turbolaser bolts can vaporize entire towns in single shots, that SW fighters can cover thousands of LY in a few hours, and they have near-c partticle beam weapons (which would require significant KE all its own). Or in ROTJ when Rebel bombardment's visibly shake the DS2.

The funny partt in particular though is that its basically the old "what a technology is is more important htan how it performs" argument. Even if it is a fusion reactor, the evidence points it to being more powerful than what a Fed ship produsces.

[Connor MacLeod]

Warhammer 40K used to have this problem too; there was originally a man-portable conversion beam weapon that converted target matter into energy, in a reasonably controllable way, yet the effect was not used everywhere for power generation. Of course 40K can always pull the 'semi-lost, no longer understood tech' argument.

However the weapon was apparently dropped from the latest edition of the game anyway (which is kind of a shame since as I recall the unique rules for it made it quite fun in play).

Actually I suspect that's because plasma reactors are overall better (more energy, possibly greater efficiency.) so they could use it, it just wouldn't be the best choice. (Hell they have antimatter too but don't use that in reactors.)

Speaking of amusing, ,as I recall Jedi Master Spock was also once noted as saying 40K ships were inferior to ST as well. When pointed out 40K ships have firepower comparable to SW ships, he kept insisting they must work on fusion because the indicated yields were "too powerful".

Basically, they aren't just biased against SW, they're biased against Any sci fi that isn't Star Trek but is clearly better than it. Up to and including universes like the Culture

[Darth Servo]

Speaking of amusing, ,as I recall Jedi Master Spock was also once noted as saying 40K ships were inferior to ST as well. When pointed out 40K ships have firepower comparable to SW ships, he kept insisting they must work on fusion because the indicated yields were "too powerful".

Basically, they aren't just biased against SW, they're biased against Any sci fi that isn't Star Trek but is clearly better than it. Up to and including universes like the Culture

Actually they HAVE argued that Trek could beat the Culture. They were engaging in a lot of phase cloak wanking at the time.

[Lord Revan]

Actually I suspect that's because plasma reactors are overall better (more energy, possibly greater efficiency.) so they could use it, it just wouldn't be the best choice. (Hell they have antimatter too but don't use that in reactors.)

Speaking of amusing, ,as I recall Jedi Master Spock was also once noted as saying 40K ships were inferior to ST as well. When pointed out 40K ships have firepower comparable to SW ships, he kept insisting they must work on fusion because the indicated yields were "too powerful".

Basically, they aren't just biased against SW, they're biased against Any sci fi that isn't Star Trek but is clearly better than it. Up to and including universes like the Culture

yeah that's why I tend to keep away from vs. debates, I mean what use there is in going on if the opponent just says "it's too powerfull, I would loose, so I won't belive it", maybe not in those words but that's the message anyway.

people are found of pulling alot stuff out of you know where, just that they wouldn't have admit they're favorite verse isn't 100% perfect and invincible

[Darth Servo]

Nothing new, once again. Timmy Jones did the same thing. Funny how the opening crawl (the highest form of canon) says the Death Star itself has the power to blow up planets.

I still remember the Rabid Stupid Asshole's response. "It just says 'power', not firepower. We should assume that 'power' means 'ability' and my magic chain reaction grants it that ability as well."



Just TRY substituting "ability" into the opening crawl Darkstar (yes, we KNOW you're reading this Scooter. Its not like you actually have a LIFE). "the Death Star, an armored space station with enough 'ability' to destroy an entire planet."

[Peptuck]

I thought this DMSpock fellow was going to be a worthy debater, but it looks like he can't even go a couple of days worth of debating without resorting to logical fallacies, irrelevant tangents, deliberate evasions, and outright lying. He even had the gall to whip out the tired old "Trek ships engage at thousands of kilometers" argument.

I can't wait for him to try and use the "Millenium Falcon hiding on the back of the Star Destroyer superstructure argument" against their sensors. So many delicious ways to attack the fallacy behind that kind of argument.

[Darth Wong]

I thought this DMSpock fellow was going to be a worthy debater, but it looks like he can't even go a couple of days worth of debating without resorting to logical fallacies, irrelevant tangents, deliberate evasions, and outright lying. He even had the gall to whip out the tired old "Trek ships engage at thousands of kilometers" argument.

I can't wait for him to try and use the "Millenium Falcon hiding on the back of the Star Destroyer superstructure argument" against their sensors. So many delicious ways to attack the fallacy behind that kind of argument.

There's no such thing as an intelligent and honest "Trek will crush Wars" debater, because the facts simply don't stack up on that side of the debate. The only way to cling to that position is to be either stupid, dishonest, or both. That's why I often liken it to creationists; they use a lot of similar tactics because they have no choice. It's the only way to argue for their position. But unlike creationists, they don't have religious faith to keep people "in the fold" once they become successful adults, which is why the Trektard ranks are full of kiddie losers.

[Darth Servo]

I thought this DMSpock fellow was going to be a worthy debater,

Why? He's a Mindless Scooter Cockgoblin. Anyone see how he tried to defend him taking the "millions of borg cubes" statement at face value by saying the Borg still were out assimilating the galaxy while getting ass-raped by S8472?

[Peptuck]

I thought this DMSpock fellow was going to be a worthy debater,

Why? He's a Mindless Scooter Cockgoblin. Anyone see how he tried to defend him taking the "millions of borg cubes" statement at face value by saying the Borg still were out assimilating the galaxy while getting ass-raped by S8472?

I initially thought he would be a worthy debater, but with every post its becoming increasingly obvious that he's a complete moron with no basic understanding of military science.

He's a Darkstar clone, but far less verbose. I kind of like how he dismissed Mike's NDF theory for hand phaser behavior as "handwaving" but happily parades Darkstar's superlaser theory.

[Batman]

Hand phaser behaviour is completely incompatible with the laws of physics, the TNG TM is where the NDF theory actually came from but Mike using it is handwaving...

[Ender]

Did you see his "analysis" of the ROTS novelilzation on the fusion issue?

Novelization: "Children on Tatooine tell each other of the dragons that live inside the suns; smaller cousins of the sun-dragons are supposed to live inside the fusion furnaces that power everything from starships to Podracers."

Darkstar: Once again, we have it clearly stated that Star Wars power systems are fusion-based like suns are, much as was seen in the other novelizations. It can hardly get any plainer.
This stands in stark contradiction to the claims made elsewhere.
EU-philes are attempting to claim that this quote is either non-literal, based on children's delusions, or is somehow supposed to refer to fusion of EU hypermatter, any of which are intended to maintain the claim of ridiculously-large energy generation numbers for SW vessels. Just reading the quote, however, shows that none of these attempted reinterpretations have any basis in reality. Sun-type fusion is the power system of Star Wars vehicles.

Yes, Darkstar is actually insisting on a literal interpretation of a statement that talks about DRAGONS living in stars.

Never mind the fact that it is blatantly contradicted by the movie - Qui-Gon gives Anakin a power cell that he stole from Watto to power the podracer.

[Ender]

Yes, Darkstar is actually insisting on a literal interpretation of a statement that talks about DRAGONS living in stars.

Nothing new, once again. Timmy Jones did the same thing. Funny how the opening crawl (the highest form of canon) says the Death Star itself has the power to blow up planets.

Nevermind that the reactor underwent a "chain reaction" - as I remember fusion reactor's don't explode. Nevermind that "starships" can reer to anything from small craft to capital ships.

Moreover, if we want to drag novels into it, the ANH novel specified that the Death Star worked off "matter to energy" conversion.

Hell, Darkstar's clearly ignoring the fact the selfsame novel indicates that turbolaser bolts can vaporize entire towns in single shots, that SW fighters can cover thousands of LY in a few hours, and they have near-c partticle beam weapons (which would require significant KE all its own). Or in ROTJ when Rebel bombardment's visibly shake the DS2.

The funny part in particular though is that its basically the old "what a technology is is more important than how it performs" argument. Even if it is a fusion reactor, the evidence points it to being more powerful than what a Fed ship produces.

Here's the fun bit - agree that it is a MCR. Then supply overlaid screenshots of alderaan as a planet and as a debris field.

linka

Measurement of the apparent expansion of the Alderaan debris cloud provides further constraints on the properties of the Death Star's blast. The main debris cloud grows in a way that is slightly elongated in the direction of the incident beam. At late stages, the debris is clearly not concentric with the initial position of the planet. This suggests momentum transfer to a large part of the planetary bulk. Judging by the offset of the centre of mass before the beam strike and several seconds into the explosion, the mean recoil velocity of the ex-Alderaanian matter is on the order of 6.7 x 10^6 m / s in the plane of the picture, implying an impulse of 4.0 x 10^31 kg m / s.

Now treat Leia's shots as though they were occurring at the same time as the beam travels (otherwise we are forced to disregard the novel's statement about the Death Star's orbital position and it is always best to harmonize as much evidence as possible) and you get a beam velocity of C. For massless force carriers, the equation for momentum transfer is

Energy = force * C

His magic energy beam must already transfer on the order of 10^38 joules to the target before the MCR takes place.

[Surlethe]

Ender, that is a beautiful argument.

For those reading this who failed physics, the detail upon which it hinges is: if it is an MCR that blows up the planet, the net force on the planet must be zero, so the center of gravity of the planet may not change.