Sci Fi power ranking

[Glimmervoid]

Maybe we should drop the colour coding for things being the same universe and just write it instead and then use colours to show power difference. Probably best to wait for a more complete list though.

[Grasscutter]

Robotech Powers are way too high. If we're going to put anything Macross related that high, it'd be the Macross Zentraedi and Spacy. Macross versions of the Zentraedi had fleets that were several times larger (high millions, I've heard billions of cap ships kicked around too) than the Robotech version. Macross Spacy is also much larger than the RDF/REF. Robotech humans have zero colonies, Macross Humans have several hundred at the least.

I think the Starcraft powers need to be nerfed too ... I'd actually put them on par with or below the B5 powers. I always got the impression that they had very slow FTL and a small population and industrial base (Toss and Terrans had like a dozen worlds, tops).

[Xon]

Definately above SST, though their position in relation to the Tau and Borg eludes me (it's my brother who is the BattleTech nut and we are an ocean apart).

BattleTech is low-end scifi. Tau would annihilate them. Borg I'm not sure.

Even the Borg would annihilate them.

Battletech ships get annihilated by low kiloton nukes. And their FTL drive is nothing short of crap. IIRC upto a 26 lightyear hop near instantly with several week cooldown time.

And they cant pull more than a couple of gees in acceleration.

[NecronLord]

The necrons and C'tan probably deserve to be rated higher simply because of their ability to modify the laws of physics, if only slowly.

[Grasscutter]

-Nerf Robotech powers
-Nerf Starcraft powers (might have nerfed them too much though)
-Added BattleTech powers below the Neo-Cylons

Xeelee & Exession Builders
the Culture
Xeeleverse humans
Arisians
Eddorians
the Foundation
Civilization
Boskone
the Galactic Empire (Foundation)
the Galactic Empire (Star Wars) & Necrons
Farscape Ancients
SG1 Ancients (at their height)
Imperium of Man (WH40K)
Tyrannids
Orks - maximum(WH40K)
. Scarrans
Peacekeepers
. Concordiat
. Sephirotic metaempire (Orion's Arm)
. Republic of Man (Resnick's universe)
. Tar Aiym (Foster's Commonwealth universe)
. Terran Confederation (Wing Commander)
. Kilrathi
. Hominid Phylum
Imperium (Dune universe)
Eldar - minimum
Vorlons & Shadows
Orks ?(WH40K)
Tau
Borg
Terran Federation (SST book)
Bugs (SST book)
Goa'uld
Dominion
. Starfire universe
. Humanx Commonwealth (Foster's Commonwealth universe)
. Puppeteers
. Covenant
Dark Eldar
. Haloverse humans
Wraiths (SG:A)
Federation (Trek)
Romulans
Klingons
. Known Space humans
. Kziniti (with FTL)
Cardassians
Marduk (Macross)
Zentraedi/Meltrandi (Macross)
UN Spacy (Macross)
===> Zentraedi (Robotech)
Minbari
League of Nobles (Dune prequel novels)
Synchronized Worlds (Dune prequel novels)
. Fifty Spacer Worlds (Foundationverse)
Centauri
Earth Alliance (B5)
Narn
===> RDF/REF (Robotech)
===> Protoss & Zerg
===> Starcraft Terrans
. Terran Federation (SST movie)
Cylons
Twelve Colonies (Galactica)
===> The Star League (BattleTech)
===> The Clans (BattleTech)
===> Inner Sphere (BattleTech)
. The Alien universe
. ID4 aliens
. Gundam
. The Race
. Draka (as of 2004)
. modern Earth

So here's a question with the Zentraedi ... do vastly superior numbers trump tech? Yes, one on one a Star Trek ship is superior tech wise to a Zentraedi cap ship, but I doubt the UFP would be able to handle the entire Zentraedi fleet if they ever went to war. The Zentraedi could jump from system to system and devestate multiple planets simultaneously.

[Lord Zentei]

Maybe we should drop the colour coding for things being the same universe and just write it instead and then use colours to show power difference. Probably best to wait for a more complete list though.

No. The power difference is shown by their position on the list. Why should we need to ways to indicate relative power?

The colour coding is to see at a glance which powers can be directly compared, and has served well in that capacity.

The necrons and C'tan probably deserve to be rated higher simply because of their ability to modify the laws of physics, if only slowly.

Pretty impressive they are, but the slowness of this ability means that they will not be able to use it in an all-out dukeout, which I thought was the main point of the list.

Anyway I'm not entirely convinced that the Great Ward is changing the laws of physics as much as a barrier between realspace and warpspace only on a galactic scale, and the Cairn class tombship is insignificant next to the power of an ISD's turbolaser barrage....

[Junghalli]

the Foundation
Civilization
Boskone
the Galactic Empire (Foundation)
the Galactic Empire (Star Wars) & Necrons

Necrons should be higher IMO. They're definitely above the Empire, and they're probably above the Foundation also unless we take the absolute wankiest estimates for Foundationverse firepower. Also throw in the Five Galaxies between Foundationverse and SW.

. Sephirotic metaempire (Orion's Arm)
. Republic of Man (Resnick's universe)
. Tar Aiym (Foster's Commonwealth universe)
. Terran Confederation (Wing Commander)
. Kilrathi
. Hominid Phylum

The Phylum is still much too high. They have no or very slow FTL. They're essentially a heavily fragmented alliance of independent planets, and if Stratos is representative many of those planets would have serious problems taking on modern Earth. The Borg would beat the living shit out of them.

Imperium (Dune universe)
Eldar - minimum
Vorlons & Shadows

The Imperium still seems overrated to me. I can't really see them beating the Shadows personally (to say nothing of 40K Orks!).

League of Nobles (Dune prequel novels)
Synchronized Worlds (Dune prequel novels)
. Fifty Spacer Worlds (Foundationverse)
Centauri
Earth Alliance (B5)

The Fifty Worlds should be between the Synchronized Worlds and the League of Nobles, as they have shields on their ships. I suspect the Centauri might also be above the Synchronized Worlds but I'm less confident of that.

. ID4 aliens
. Gundam
. The Race
. Draka (as of 2004)
. modern Earth

You should put in movie SST Bugs below modern Earth. Footfall aliens and Necromongers would probably also go down there (although above SST Bugs, which have to be the most pathetic spacefaring species in all sci fi).

So here's a question with the Zentraedi ... do vastly superior numbers trump tech?

If the numerical advantage is overwhelming enough yes. I mean, tell me the Eldar wouldn't rape the Dune Imperium with a chainsaw if they had anything remotely approaching equal numbers?

Yes, one on one a Star Trek ship is superior tech wise to a Zentraedi cap ship, but I doubt the UFP would be able to handle the entire Zentraedi fleet if they ever went to war.

How big is the Zentraedi fleet? I'm hearing millions of ships being tossed around so yeah, unless a Fed ship is hundreds of times more powerful they'd probably loose.

[Junghalli]

Anyway I'm not entirely convinced that the Great Ward is changing the laws of physics as much as a barrier between realspace and warpspace only on a galactic scale, and the Cairn class tombship is insignificant next to the power of an ISD's turbolaser barrage....

Judging the firepower of a Necron warship from the kinds of vessels the IoM usually needs to fight is like judging the firepower of the US Navy based on the firepower of a whaling ship.

[Lord Zentei]

Necrons should be higher IMO. They're definitely above the Empire, and they're probably above the Foundation also unless we take the absolute wankiest estimates for Foundationverse firepower. Also throw in the Five Galaxies between Foundationverse and SW.

Prove it.

Judging the firepower of a Necron warship from the kinds of vessels the IoM usually needs to fight is like judging the firepower of the US Navy based on the firepower of a whaling ship.

No.

[NecronLord]

Pretty impressive they are, but the slowness of this ability means that they will not be able to use it in an all-out dukeout, which I thought was the main point of the list.

They can happily zip off out of range of most everyone below them on this list, and twiddle their thumbs while they complete it.

Anyway I'm not entirely convinced that the Great Ward is changing the laws of physics as much as a barrier between realspace and warpspace only on a galactic scale,

The exact terminology used is 'cutting off' sounds like altering the laws of physics to me, specifically, rendering interdimensional travel to the warp impossible. I will also add that realspace FTL and FTL transporters require similar abuse of phsyics, but on a far smaller scale. The scale is also, IIRC, universal, not galactic.

and the Cairn class tombship is insignificant next to the power of an ISD's turbolaser barrage....

Glad it's a glorified tractor then. In comparison, extracting millions of years worth of total solar output from a star and storing it, then transferring it to another being, one of the things we saw a true necron warship (Admittedly the Death of Worlds was not the bog starndard necron ship even then) do, is far from insignificant next to even the Death Star.

[NecronLord]

No.

Yes. There is an example of a true necron warship in Nightbringer. Among other things, it kills a star by increasing its fusion rate and feeding that to its master, and takes on the combined fleet of every remaining sentient race in the universe for several minutes, as well as survives being smashed into the warp for sixty million years afterward.

Harvest ships have numerous times been stated to be designed for culling the lesser races, not fighting real enemies, thus, their firepower is equal to their task - they can smash aside any Imperial taskforce in equal numbers with ease, and often take on two to one numbers against them. And this is in the watered down (after much complaints regarding balance, several features that still exist in the fluff were removed) present incarnation of the necrons in BFG.

And do remind me. When did the Galactic Empire last throw a black hole at an enemy star system?

There is insufficient data to truly derive much information about the Necrontyr Empire at its height (or indeed, depth), but every benchmark about it, such as power transfer, FTL speed, mass destruction capability, put it well above the Galactic Empire.

The only counter to this seems to be 'the Tombships are not much better than IoM ships. This is untrue - in universe they have only been encountered seven times in universe by IoM forces that lived to tell of it. There is no reliable indicator of parity at all.

Similarly the Scythe class harvest ship. You know how many of those the Imperium has destroyed in universe? 0. You know how many occasions they've forced one to phase out? 3. Not very impressive is it?

[Lord Zentei]

They can happily zip off out of range of most everyone below them on this list, and twiddle their thumbs while they complete it.

In which case a shitload of powers should be far lower on the list; thus far FTL speed, firepower and numbers have been the main yardsticks, rather than range.

The exact terminology used is 'cutting off' sounds like altering the laws of physics to me, specifically, rendering interdimensional travel to the warp impossible.

A matter of opinion. The Israelis "cut off'" sections of the Gaza strip with that wall of theirs according to CNN. I'm not placing them above the Culture for that reason.

I will also add that realspace FTL and FTL transporters require similar abuse of phsyics, but on a far smaller scale. The scale is also, IIRC, universal, not galactic.

So: should Star Trek be above the Empire for this reason? Anyway, where is it stated that the scale is universal?

Glad it's a glorified tractor then. In comparison, extracting millions of years worth of total solar output from a star and storing it, then transferring it to another being, one of the things we saw a true necron warship (Admittedly the Death of Worlds was not the bog starndard necron ship even then) do, is far from insignificant next to even the Death Star.

It does not mean that they automatically trump higher ranking powers.

[Lord Zentei]

There is insufficient data to truly derive much information about the Necrontyr Empire at its height (or indeed, depth), but every benchmark about it, such as power transfer, FTL speed, mass destruction capability, put it well above the Galactic Empire. The only counter to this seems to be 'the Tombships are not much better than IoM ships. This is untrue - in universe they have only been encountered seven times in universe by IoM forces that lived to tell of it. There is no reliable indicator of parity at all.

Since when are we talking about the Necrontyr empire at their height?

[Lord Zentei]

Yes. There is an example of a true necron warship in Nightbringer. Among other things, it kills a star by increasing its fusion rate and feeding that to its master, and takes on the combined fleet of every remaining sentient race in the universe for several minutes, as well as survives being smashed into the warp for sixty million years afterward.

The entire universe or the entire galaxy?

Harvest ships have numerous times been stated to be designed for culling the lesser races, not fighting real enemies, thus, their firepower is equal to their task - they can smash aside any Imperial taskforce in equal numbers with ease, and often take on two to one numbers against them. And this is in the watered down (after much complaints regarding balance, several features that still exist in the fluff were removed) present incarnation of the necrons in BFG.

I wasn't really using gameplay for a yardstick. Anyway, the fact that the IoM is capable of attacking Necron vessels of any kind at all indicates that there is a limit to the power disparity. Compare the Millennium Falcon (upgraded freighter) to a Galaxy class ship. The Galaxy stands no chance at all, even with 10:1 odds.

And do remind me. When did the Galactic Empire last throw a black hole at an enemy star system?

I seem to recall Galaxy Guns and Suncrushers.

The only counter to this seems to be 'the Tombships are not much better than IoM ships. This is untrue - in universe they have only been encountered seven times in universe by IoM forces that lived to tell of it. There is no reliable indicator of parity at all.

Similarly the Scythe class harvest ship. You know how many of those the Imperium has destroyed in universe? 0. You know how many occasions they've forced one to phase out? 3. Not very impressive is it?

That the Necrons have far more power than the IoM is not in dispute.

[Junghalli]

Since when are we talking about the Necrontyr empire at their height?

That is what I suggested putting above Star Wars and Foundationverse. Obviously the pitiful remnant that exists now is not that powerful (although unlike other fallen empires like the Eldar Necrons actually do have the capability to get themselves back up to full power if they wanted to, which is why they were originally listed at full power not present power).

[NecronLord]

So: should Star Trek be above the Empire for this reason? Anyway, where is it stated that the scale is universal?

I'm sorry, when did Star Trek have multi-AU range teleporters that operate instantly? More to the point, yes, if ST could evade GE ships indefinately, build dyson spheres, and destroy entire star systems, I would have serious doubts about the GE's ability to triumph. How long would there be a Galactic Empire if the Coruscant system dissappeared into a black hole?* Certainly the Necrons hold the cards of FTL speed and range over the GE, as well as mass destruction capability. Even if the full strength necrons were unable to win a slugfest with Imperial forces, their ability to choose the battles and apply mass destruction would tell in a war.

First mention of the Great Warding, Codex Necrons, P26 "and forever defeat the magicss of the Old Ones by sealing off the material universe from the Empyrean." While this could apply only to this galaxy, it seems unlikely - it is explicitly mentioned in Nightbringer that the C'tan have been to and harvested other galaxies. If the problem were only a local one, requiring a local solution, why would they not just move elsewhere? - and the only indication of the scale of the Great Warding is that section there.

It does not mean that they automatically trump higher ranking powers.

Then remove them entirely from the list due to lack of information. They can certainly do things beyond the GE in terms of power transfer - with that in mind it is difficult to imagine that true necron warships would not use teraton range weapons. Or use it as an indicator of their current status.

*Not that this would be the best way available to deal with the GE. A C'tan going to Coruscant, killing Palpatine and taking his place would be just as effective.

[NecronLord]

Since when are we talking about the Necrontyr empire at their height?

Err? Since always. The Galactic Empire is always assumed to be at its height for debates unless stated otherwise. The UFP. Even the Eldar are. Why not the necrons?

[Junghalli]

The entire universe or the entire galaxy?

Galaxy.

I wasn't really using gameplay for a yardstick. Anyway, the fact that the IoM is capable of attacking Necron vessels of any kind at all indicates that there is a limit to the power disparity. Compare the Millennium Falcon (upgraded freighter) to a Galaxy class ship. The Galaxy stands no chance at all, even with 10:1 odds.

Again, Tombship is to Necron warship as a (modern) whaling ship is to a modern USN ship. The firepower disparity is enormous (harpoons vs. artillery guns and cruise missiles).

[NecronLord]

The entire universe or the entire galaxy?

Error. That's meant to be galaxy.

I wasn't really using gameplay for a yardstick. Anyway, the fact that the IoM is capable of attacking Necron vessels of any kind at all indicates that there is a limit to the power disparity. Compare the Millennium Falcon (upgraded freighter) to a Galaxy class ship. The Galaxy stands no chance at all, even with 10:1 odds.

I would really dispute that. After it runs out of Concussion missiles on the first six or so GCSes, it's down to fighter range guns.

I seem to recall Galaxy Guns and Suncrushers.

Both of which are not only lost technology, and unavailable to the Empire at its height, but quite inferior to the abovementioned C'tan WMD.

[Lord Zentei]

Since when are we talking about the Necrontyr empire at their height?

That is what I suggested putting above Star Wars and Foundationverse. Obviously the pitiful remnant that exists now is not that powerful (although unlike other fallen empires like the Eldar Necrons actually do have the capability to get themselves back up to full power if they wanted to, which is why they were originally listed at full power not present power).

Since when are we talking about the Necrontyr empire at their height?

Err? Since always. The Galactic Empire is always assumed to be at its height for debates unless stated otherwise. The UFP. Even the Eldar are. Why not the necrons?

Ah, in that case we have found the source of the disagreement. All the 40K powers were intended to be those of the "current" storyline, i.e. 999M41.

[Lord Zentei]

I'm sorry, when did Star Trek have multi-AU range teleporters that operate instantly? More to the point, yes, if ST could evade GE ships indefinately, build dyson spheres, and destroy entire star systems, I would have serious doubts about the GE's ability to triumph. How long would there be a Galactic Empire if the Coruscant system dissappeared into a black hole?* Certainly the Necrons hold the cards of FTL speed and range over the GE, as well as mass destruction capability. Even if the full strength necrons were unable to win a slugfest with Imperial forces, their ability to choose the battles and apply mass destruction would tell in a war.

I was referring to your statement that realspace FTL was indicated modification of the laws of physics, that's all.

First mention of the Great Warding, Codex Necrons, P26 "and forever defeat the magicss of the Old Ones by sealing off the material universe from the Empyrean." While this could apply only to this galaxy, it seems unlikely - it is explicitly mentioned in Nightbringer that the C'tan have been to and harvested other galaxies. If the problem were only a local one, requiring a local solution, why would they not just move elsewhere? - and the only indication of the scale of the Great Warding is that section there.

Palpy was planning invasions of nearby galaxies IIRC

Then remove them entirely from the list due to lack of information. They can certainly do things beyond the GE in terms of power transfer - with that in mind it is difficult to imagine that true necron warships would not use teraton range weapons. Or use it as an indicator of their current status.

Perhaps. I'm a bit reluctant to see them removed though. Not that it is my say, I'm not the moderator around here, ya know.

*Not that this would be the best way available to deal with the GE. A C'tan going to Coruscant, killing Palpatine and taking his place would be just as effective.

Cheat! Cheat!

[Lord Zentei]

The entire universe or the entire galaxy?

Galaxy.

I wasn't really using gameplay for a yardstick. Anyway, the fact that the IoM is capable of attacking Necron vessels of any kind at all indicates that there is a limit to the power disparity. Compare the Millennium Falcon (upgraded freighter) to a Galaxy class ship. The Galaxy stands no chance at all, even with 10:1 odds.

Again, Tombship is to Necron warship as a (modern) whaling ship is to a modern USN ship. The firepower disparity is enormous (harpoons vs. artillery guns and cruise missiles).

That they are, but you are using a bit of a fallacy:

A < B, A < C does not mean B < C.

I am not disputing that Necrons trump the IoM. Just that they trump the Foundation, the Empire, and other things that also trump the IoM.

[NecronLord]

I was referring to your statement that realspace FTL was indicated modification of the laws of physics, that's all.

Palpy was planning invasions of nearby galaxies IIRC

I think that's fanon, but in any case, it is possible, just not as easy as it is for the necrons (who could be in andromeda before I even finished getting out of my door) It's always unwise to listen to anything about Palpatine's motivations. A favourite from the Dark Empire sourcebook is that he wanted to suck everyone's souls out and become some sort of ubersith.

Perhaps. I'm a bit reluctant to see them removed though. Not that it is my say, I'm not the moderator around here, ya know.

Our powers are spiritual, not tempo- err. Our powers are board related, not debate related.

Cheat! Cheat!

Pfft. It would be, if that wasn't Mr. Second-Highest-Rank-in-the-Ad-Mech Mephet'ran's typical MO.

Besides, if a C'tan killed him, it'd eat his soul, and we'd be spared the appalling atrocity against the written word that is Dark Empire.

[Lord Zentei]

I would really dispute that. After it runs out of Concussion missiles on the first six or so GCSes, it's down to fighter range guns.

Fair enough. Use a larger freighter instead. Point is, a SW nonmillitary ship crushes a ST millitary one of similar size so completely it isn't even funny. Therefore, this provides inadequate information with regards to where SW is in relation to others that assrape ST.

Both of which are not only lost technology, and unavailable to the Empire at its height, but quite inferior to the abovementioned C'tan WMD.

I disagree. The Galaxy gun's effect is the same as the black hole launcher in practice. But as you say, lost tech, so fair enough.

[NecronLord]

I disagree. The Galaxy gun's effect is the same as the black hole launcher in practice. But as you say, lost tech, so fair enough.

Galaxy Gun missiles have never been used against a star, and while they could be used to destroy all planets in a system, they can also, IIRC, be made to smack against a planetary shield and die once the enemy is aware of the danger. The same is not true of a black hole consuming one's sun and pulling one in.