Orionsarm.org

[kojikun]

I'd settle for something substantiated in OA's favor; debates are so boring when only one side will do the math.

Well, we already agreed that a planet sized computer was ridiculously powerful. And thats the computers talked about in the VS page. Even if SW has superior computer technology, chip for chip, OA has computers of significantly great power thanks to sheer size. You've already given a number for the number of calculations required, and a moon brain is, as previously determined, 1.3E60 FLOPS. Even if we cut it down by 1000000 to allow for a huge shitload of required stuff like cooling and power, thats still 1.3E58 FLOPS, or about 10^31 R2D2s.

A potential, which is why I'm still listing it as average. Ultimately, the difference isn't that great; it's the orders of magnitude where things will tilt in one side or another.

Yep. I've heard 500bn for the SW galaxy. But its really a minigalaxy thats the size of a solar system which is why you can go 1.5c and-..

[kojikun]

oh gods brain not functioning.

divided by a million, its 1.3E53 (hows that for dyslexia? 8.. 3.. bwaha) and 10^26 R2D2s. Sorry.

[kojikun]

wtf.. ok, brain not working. 1.3E54 and 10^27. I can't do arithmetic, clearly. 1+1 is uh.. 5. i need sleep.

[SirNitram]

I'd settle for something substantiated in OA's favor; debates are so boring when only one side will do the math.

Well, we already agreed that a planet sized computer was ridiculously powerful. And thats the computers talked about in the VS page. Even if SW has superior computer technology, chip for chip, OA has computers of significantly great power thanks to sheer size. You've already given a number for the number of calculations required, and a moon brain is, as previously determined, 1.3E60 FLOPS. Even if we cut it down by 1000000 to allow for a huge shitload of required stuff like cooling and power, thats still 1.3E58 FLOPS, or about 10^31 R2D2s.

Amusingly, the page about moon-brains denotes them being slower than human thought.

In any case, I'm still amused that teh Empire falls under the broad guidelines of Godtech from the Encyclopedia.

[Mad]

Using the real solar system as a guide, it seems safe to say there's at least a hundred objects worth keeping an eye on; depending on the tolerances of hyperdrive, it may skyrocket above that.(3e13)

O(n^2) should, unless I miss what O stands for, be (4 * 3e13)^2, or 1.2E27 calculations.

As mentioned earlier (but after your post), the calculations should only need to look at each system as whole. The mass recorded for the star in the calculations can just be the mass of the entire star system, and the gravitational calcs would come out the same. The hazards within a star system would only need to be accounted for when the starship is expected to pass near or through that system.

Don't know how to work out Hz from here, Mad, some help?

I just assumed 1 Hz per calculation. It's not entirely accurate, but it should be rough enough for a general estimate unless there's something I don't know about supercomputers. I figure that even though parallel processing can allow multiple calculations per cycle, the logic of the code and calculations I'm not accounting for should even it out to within an order of magnitude. Hopefully I'm not wrong.

[SirNitram]

Close enough for Government Employment.

[kojikun]

Amusingly, the page about moon-brains denotes them being slower than human thought.

I didn't know wtf they were talking about. I was just assuming that the thing was solid computronium made from the most modern and fastest processors. It would make little sense to do it any other way, especially if the goal of the AI is to continue to make itself more powerful.

In any case, I'm still amused that teh Empire falls under the broad guidelines of Godtech from the Encyclopedia.

Well, these are two different universes. OA doesn't have the power capabilities of the Empire, and powers the real determiner of technological ability.

[SirNitram]

Amusingly, the page about moon-brains denotes them being slower than human thought.

I didn't know wtf they were talking about. I was just assuming that the thing was solid computronium made from the most modern and fastest processors. It would make little sense to do it any other way, especially if the goal of the AI is to continue to make itself more powerful.

In any case, I'm still amused that teh Empire falls under the broad guidelines of Godtech from the Encyclopedia.

Well, these are two different universes. OA doesn't have the power capabilities of the Empire, and powers the real determiner of technological ability.

True. GUT with Neutronium comes close, but can't match Hypermatter.

[Mad]

On optimization:

In theory, you could get the shortcut of turning an entire sector or so into one example(Say, if you're moving entirely on the far side of the Galaxy), though of course these shortcuts kick your margin of error up each time. The 100 object thing was assuming we can lump together large chunks of asteroid belts as one particularly spread-out mass.

That sounds reasonable. With 1,000 sectors, the furthest away ones could theoretically be lumped together as one huge mass for calculation purposes, while the closer stars are counted individually. It'd cut down the workload quite a bit, but still require some powerful computing.

[kojikun]

True. GUT with Neutronium comes close, but can't match Hypermatter.

Don't mention the GUT drive. Thats the stupidest part of their fucking site. I hate it. It tries to explain the shit down to individual processes. It's wholely bullshit, one of the parts I was looking forward to reading then quickly left after a few sentences.

[SirNitram]

True. GUT with Neutronium comes close, but can't match Hypermatter.

Don't mention the GUT drive. Thats the stupidest part of their fucking site. I hate it. It tries to explain the shit down to individual processes. It's wholely bullshit, one of the parts I was looking forward to reading then quickly left after a few sentences.

No, the stupidest is the Nanoswarm Era.

[kojikun]

Nanoswarm is almost believable tho, if you take it to mean a manufactured non-organic virus like thing thats harder to kill then normal virii.

BTW, what were some of the proposed realistic "hypermatters"? someone said something about hyperons or some such?

[SirNitram]

Nanoswarm is almost believable tho, if you take it to mean a manufactured non-organic virus like thing thats harder to kill then normal virii.

BTW, what were some of the proposed realistic "hypermatters"? someone said something about hyperons or some such?

Hyperons puts together like 'normal' matter is incredibly dense, and has complex mass, therefore might fufil the requirements. The earlier theories were mostly just 'something superdense'.

[kojikun]

what exactly are hyperons? and how would complex mass be useful?

[Kuroneko]

I just assumed 1 Hz per calculation. It's not entirely accurate, but it should be rough enough for a general estimate unless there's something I don't know about supercomputers. I figure that even though parallel processing can allow multiple calculations per cycle, the logic of the code and calculations I'm not accounting for should even it out to within an order of magnitude. Hopefully I'm not wrong.

That's a very strange assumption. It's a pretty complicated nterplay. Most single instruction take multiple clock cycles, but then in supercomputers most instructions encapsulate many arithmetical operations. For a comparison, the newest Cray X1 processors have 800MHz clocks, and rate 12.8GFLOPs in computational power, which is far beyond 3GHz Pentium-4's.

Overall, Hz is meaningless for comparing different systems. It's only when they have the same architecture that it becomes a relevant issue.

[SirNitram]

what exactly are hyperons? and how would complex mass be useful?

I'm not sure of all the components that make a particular particle a Hyperon, but it's exceptionally dense.. if I read the math correctly, denser than the sum of it's parts. But I could be terribly wrong.

Complex mass is more or less the entire basis behind the current theory of how Hyperspace works. In essense, it's used to reduce the 'effective' mass of a ship to zero(Or maybe below) to allow it to accelerate to C and above.

[Mad]

That's a very strange assumption. It's a pretty complicated nterplay. Most single instruction take multiple clock cycles, but then in supercomputers most instructions encapsulate many arithmetical operations. For a comparison, the newest Cray X1 processors have 800MHz clocks, and rate 12.8GFLOPs in computational power, which is far beyond 3GHz Pentium-4's.

Overall, Hz is meaningless for comparing different systems. It's only when they have the same architecture that it becomes a relevant issue.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the info. I haven't dealt with supercomputers so I'm still thinking in PC land.

Well, for comparison purposes, just replace "hertz" in my recent calcs with "FLOPs" and it should be more accurate in terms of number crunching, since we have no idea what kind of architecture has been implimented for various SW systems.

[Sarevok]

Only if the software has to run in realtime. It is possible to perform virtualy any computing task imaginable on a 486 if you have enough patience. This is the nature of computing technology.

True, but then its not as intelligent as a human, because a human could perform more tasks in the same amount of time. So its valueless.

There are no binary representations of human thought processes so comparing a computer with the human brain is futile. The human brain operates on totaly different principles than a computer.

[kojikun]

There are no binary representations of human thought processes so comparing a computer with the human brain is futile. The human brain operates on totaly different principles than a computer.

True, but its possible to estimate based on the performance of the brain.

[Sarevok]

There are no binary representations of human thought processes so comparing a computer with the human brain is futile. The human brain operates on totaly different principles than a computer.

True, but its possible to estimate based on the performance of the brain.

The human brain operates on totaly different principles than a computer. For example in terms of calculations per second the human brain falls behind even the most primitive computers. You can not compare the human brain and computers based on performences.

[Kuroneko]

what exactly are hyperons? and how would complex mass be useful?

I'm not sure of all the components that make a particular particle a Hyperon, but it's exceptionally dense.. if I read the math correctly, denser than the sum of it's parts. But I could be terribly wrong.

A hyperon is a (heavy and unstable) type of baryon, which is the same class of particles that the proton and the neutron. An atom with a hyperon nucleus (which is somehow metastable in the strong force for reasons I don't really understand) would therefore be heavier than its proton/neutron counterpart. As for being denser than the sum of its parts, I'm not sure of what you mean.

[Kuroneko]

True, but its possible to estimate based on the performance of the brain.

The human brain operates on totaly different principles than a computer. For example in terms of calculations per second the human brain falls behind even the most primitive computers. You can not compare the human brain and computers based on performences.

Well, then, it really depends on what you're using as a benchmark, doesn't it? You could use an artificial neural network for the computer, and compare its performance, or code a specific task (e.g., image identification) through other means, and compare performances that way. You're right--there's no real way to compare them at the `hardware' level, but in the end what matter most is not the hardware by itself but how fast it does what you want it to do--in other words, specific tasks.

[kojikun]

More stuff from Alan.

------------------

Alan:

Hi everyone
been skimming the thread. The way Mike has the BBS set up it wont let me sign up and post myself, so i sent this to Kojikun re issues and arguments raised, regarding AI, nano, FTL, causality, etc, here are some responses already on the OA site (these are commonly raised objections)

http://www.orionsarm.com/faqs.html#hard_ai <-- for people who cant accept the Hard AI premise
http://www.orionsarm.com/intro/ftl-paradoxes.html <-- why FTL violates causality (it's not exotic matter that's the problem!!!!)
http://www.theculture.org/rich/sharpblu ... 00089.html <--- a longer writeup by the same author.
http://www.orionsarm.com/intro/answerin ... nopossible
http://www.orionsarm.com/intro/answerin ... iamandnano <-- tell all your guys with problems with nano to have a good read of that one And for them to read the associated links.
http://www.orionsarm.com/intro/answerin ... copossible <-- the case for pico is not yet as strong as for nano, but it does not vilate causality the way that warp drive or hyperspace FTL does
http://www.orionsarm.com/intro/answerin ... ispossible <-- because some people seem to take everything WAY to literally!!!!!

also

[note from Kojikun: Nitram, you're gonna love this.]

Oh, no more nanotech. Now it's picotech.

Picotech is mild try Plancktech
http://www.orionsarm.com/tech/plancktech.html
also, for the person who thought OA femtotech disabling SW/ST shields is
silly (sorry, didnt note the name - was skimming through) How do your shields work? I assume they are an electromagentic of some sort? Or - never mind handwavium - are they just nothing but magicfantasyium? "Now i have a force field - you cant get through, you cant interact with it." Well, assuming they ARE some sort of field effect, they would most likely be electromagnetic, because that, and gravity, are the only forces known that work at a distance. Even if they are (much handwavium here, and any reference in your canon?) some sort of quantum field, femtotech works on the quantum level. Just as nanotech manipulates atmoms with precision, so femtotech manipulates quarks, etc. Anything on the subatomic particle level you have, the archailects can use anyway they want

True, femtotech is handwavium, we fully admit that! But it does not violate temporal causality, the way FTL does (see above links re that) re everyone here who has a problem with OA calling itself Hard Science - we are Hard Science - just like other SF writers like Arthur C Clarke write hard science (and can you tell me how the stargat e in 2001 works? But it is still a hard science book and movie, only it has *speculation*, as all true sci fi does. But we are not Ultra Hard Science. We dont claim to be Ultra Hard Science. We freely admit a lot of what we say is speculation. Just like Clarke, Asimov, and other great writers, we engage in *speculation* However, if any among you lot would like to claim that Star Wars is Hard Science, or is more realistic than OA, I'd be most interested to hear your arguments! I have yet to see anything on your forum which disproves OA's status as Hard (but still speculative) SF And guys, LIGHTEN UP!!!! It's only science fiction for chrissake

[kojikun]

Alan also contacting the OA newsgroup, and someone commented on computational abilities:

I have just been checking up in Malcom Bradbury's pages about Matrioska Brains;

http://www.aeiveos.com/~bradbury/Matrio ... ughtLimits

he says for a multi layer MB the OPS/sec would be 10^42. with wormhole buses the intra-entity communication time would be cut down to seconds rather than hours or days as Bradbury imagines, but the number of operations per second would be the same. So our MB's are an improvement on Bradbury's. The SW people are talking about exabytes, which is 10^18; And Yottahertz, which is 10^24; both pretty small compared to an MB...

[Peregrin Toker]

WARNING: MORE BLATANT SELF-PROMOTION AHEAD!!!



I ask this question to anyone here who have taken at least an effort to read my story "The Wormhole War" or know about it roughly:

How do you think "The Wormhole War" compares in terms of realism against Orion's Arm???

Thing is, I also designed the setting of "The Wormhole War" to be as realistic as I could make a space-opera setting.

Thusly:

1. No interstellar travel through anything else than wormholes.
2. Artificial Intelligences are used in many places where they do the job better than living minds - such as aircraft piloting.
3. No totally improbable, unfeasible or impractical weapons such as plasma guns, black hole-generating warheads or guns that use psychic energy as ammunition. (the latter idea has actually been used in the Warhammer 40K universe)
4. No psychic powers!!!
5. BIG, BIG SPOILER:The two warring humanoid species of the Wormhole War setting are actually descended from humans who settled in different solar systems.

However, it seems to me that I have made the mistake of perhaps not depicting societies as futuristic as the technology they use. (the Xhatrr Dominion was originally supposed to be based upon the Soviet Union) Hopefully, I have not described Jardra society to extents great enough to commit this error again. In particular - I might not give Artificial Intelligences a big enough role.