You vs. the Alpha Quadrant

[Mr Bean]

Bio life forms generate heat
Even if its a little bit it shows up aginst the -40 *C tempture of space rather well don't you think?


How do we know they generated heat?
Simple The Entprise crew was not walking around in Parkas and snow-dog teams mushing through the Ice in the ship

BIO SHIPS GENERATE HEAT
NEARLY ALL SHIPS GENERATE HEAT

[Cpt_Frank]

If species 8472 dares to attack the Empire, then they will be destroyed.
Not even the Great Almighty Bio Ships can withstand the laws of physic (generation of heat), or gigatons of firepower.

[Sothis]

You seem to have a problem grasping the fundemental conditions of this thread. As per the thread starter, the Imp fleet of 141 ships plus 2 million troops and a supply base has 10 years to conquer as much of the Alpha Quadrant as it can. Not to wipe out every last man woman and child, but to conquer

Wrong it was *ME* VS ST and I may have only a 10 year time limit, but as i made perfectly clear I don't need ten years.

Incorrect. The objective is to CONQUER. You have a very limited number of ships and troops with which to do this.

I wasn't saying it takes 10 years for the Imp fleet to travel around the Alpha Quadrant, I was saying that in 10 years they will have to face a minimum of 8000 ships (not counting the Breen, Ferengi, or all the non-descript races of the Alpha Quadrant).

No I will only have to face individual fleets of no more than 2-300 at a time as I'm giving them no chance to gather anything larger and no hope of fighting on a fair playing field, let them deploy in typical Trek fashion and I'll rip them apart from the flanks and rear while they're spining in circle wondering which way is up. And as I am leaving no survivors theirs no way for anyone else to learn from their mistakes. Each time will be a new experience to them and another day at the office for me.

You're assuming you CAN keep them from grouping. The Imp fleet cannot be in every place at once, it cannot prevent every communications transmission or long-range sensor scan. You're also assuming that a fleet of 200 Fed ships can't inflict any lossed on the Imp fleet- Aside from the obvious ramming tactic, ships which can in groups of 30 destroy 30% of a planet's crust in their opening volley (Reference, DS9: The Die is Cast), ships which survive supernovae point-blank (Ref, VOY: The Q and the Grey), dive unshielded between two pulsars (VOY: Scientific Method), are not going to just roll over and inflict no damage.

They only have the 141 ships (which are NOT invincible), plus only 2 million troops with which to control at least 20 billion people.

Apparently you can't read, I am not taking prisoners, I'mn not worrying about being a nice guy, I'm securing the area and that means nothing but my persionnel breathes there after I've visited. I'm going total war, you play namby-pamby however much you want. All I have to deal with is my own men and that's it, endex![/quote]

Apparently you continue to miss the key part of the thread-starters conditions, to conquer, not wipe out. Your total war scenario is best played in a new thread.

The assumption seems to be that the Imp fleet will effortlessly leap from homeworld to homeworld without facing any resistance, whilst not having to care about guarding their supply base. Give me a fleet of 500 ISDs, and I can see a comfortable victory for the Imps, but instead, there's only that fleet of 141 ships, and not all of them are of ISD level.

My supply base would be placed 1 days travel outside the A-quad by Hyperdrive ( at 127ly aminute for a victory class thats Anywhere inside the Milky Way and once i have made a mapping of the route My Supply base would be the otherside of the galaxy (or 70+ years away from the A-quad forces, I'm not worried about them findig it in a hurry). Besides they won't even know the attacks are happening as I'm hitting them before word can get out there's a threat, and ships are being destroyed as they do thier little Starfleet missions on their own and vunerable.[/quote]

Again, the assumptions that every attack will proceed perfectly and without losses or survivors. Besides, placing your supply base a day away from your forces means a whole day's travel for damaged ships back to base, or a tow from another ship, taking said other ship away from the fight. Not to mention a day's travel back.

You also call the Fed attack on the Borg cube 'sporadic'. In The Best of Both Worlds, 39 ships were involved, all of them destroyed. In First Contact, the battle starts in the Typhon Sector, and rages to Sector 001. if we assume that the sectors are side by side, that's still a long fought battle, that MUST have involved more than 39 ships, and lasted for as long as it took the Ent-E to return from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth- an unknown distance, but not unreasonable to assume that it be a few hours worth of travel. When you consider how quickly those 39 ships at Wolf 359 were destroyed, the Feds must have brought a lot more ships to play in First Contact. Either said ships were also a fair bit tougher, or the Borg absorbed a lot more firepower than before

Or it was able to travel most of the way unimpeded as Starfleet vessels had to join the fight from all over the place. What fighting we do see shows an uncoordinated assault by ships acting independantly. Now back to the real matter at hand, my crushing the A-quad. You want to discuss the Borg cube, then please feel free to start a new and relevant thread.[/quote]

I didn't bring up the matter of the Borg, someone else did.

We know from Picard's briefing of his crew at the opening of First Contact that a fleet was being gathered in the Typhon Sector. We know that in the time it took the Ent-E to reach Earth, the battle had proceeded to Sector 001. So it would have logically lasted a few hours (unless we're to believe that the Neutral Zone is only a few minutes from Earth!). Under such a long battle, with casualties naturally being taken, it wouldn't surprise me if co-ordination problems would set it (especially seeing as the Admiral's ship had been destroyed at an unknown point in the fight). The battle also shows that the Federation was able to pull together a more substantial fleet than before in order to fight the Borg (a battle against a cube lasting a few hours would have to have a great many ships there, given how quickly the 39 ships in BOBW were destroyed). Hence, logically, they can pull together a healthy sized fleet to defend their main planets as well.

[Sothis]

Yawn- Point 1- Regardless of BDZ firepower, you HAVE seen the ISD haven't you? The weapons coverage that the HTL's provide ARE poorly placed, especially for hitting maneouverable Federation ships (well, maneouverable compared to every example of an Imperial capship shown on screen). A few seconds worth of ROTJ is contradicted straight off from TESB, when the two ISDs scraped into each other. If they possess such fantastic moving skills, why didn't they use them then?

Do you suffer from some form of Sleep deprivation or something, this constant yawning of your's is getting silly, you really shouldn't be debating if your a narcoleptic.

As to the ISd's they were moving at full pelt and still managed to survive a hit from each other, They weren't worried about hitting each other as they knew they would survive without a scratch, it was more important to catch the Falcon.

Now these examples of Highly Maneouverable Fed ships? Where are they?

The Defiant's loop in the DS9 finale is far in excess of what an ISD can do. For that matter, so it's the Defiant's banking and rolling whilst hunting Eddington in 'For the Uniform' (I think that's the correct episode, Season 5) The ships (The Fed ships, not so much the Cardassian ones) in 'Sacrifice of Angels' also demonstrate agility superior to those of ISDs.

And just how did those ISD captains know they could collide with out any damage? Where is it stated that the ships were unharmed? The crews certainly seemed concerned enough about the impending collision.

You will also note that the effectiveness of the DS's gun emplacements was limited. TIEs had to be called upon to destroy the X-Wings and Y-Wings, as the emplacemens weren't up to the task

Are you seriously going to try and claim that Fed Cap ships are as maneouverable as SW fighters? You really are mad aren't you?

I didn't try to claim that did I? You're inferring something that isn't there.
What I am pointing out is that the 'ultra' aim of the DS's emplacements are not to the standard you suggest. How many fighters were destroyed by those emplacements? 1? 5? 10? Or was it that they had such a hard time that they had to call upon TIEs?

[Sothis]

Yawn- Point 1- Regardless of BDZ firepower, you HAVE seen the ISD haven't you? The weapons coverage that the HTL's provide ARE poorly placed, especially for hitting maneouverable Federation ships (well, maneouverable compared to every example of an Imperial capship shown on screen). A few seconds worth of ROTJ is contradicted straight off from TESB, when the two ISDs scraped into each other. If they possess such fantastic moving skills, why didn't they use them then?

You will also note that the effectiveness of the DS's gun emplacements was limited. TIEs had to be called upon to destroy the X-Wings and Y-Wings, as the emplacemens weren't up to the task.

I did never say they had fantastic maneuvering capabilites. I merely wanted to show they don't sit around like giant space slugs, and, with the maneuvering capability they have, will possibly able to turn around that way they can bring their heavy guns int play.
Ok, they don't have heavy guns on the underside, but consider:
Every target approaching from front, above, or the side will inevitably come into the firing arc of the heavy guns which kill with one hit

Of course, they actually have to HIT their targets first.

And you did notice we actually saw that one fighter was shot down by the heavy guns?[/quote]

One fighter, out of how many? And it was a heavy gun, or just a MTL or LTL?


See it that way: Star Trek ships do maneuver. But not like SW snubfighters.
Every ST ship which comes into the firing arc of the guns is dead.
And of course, in a battle, you can try to avoid the heavy guns.
But don't count on it.
Imagine:
Huge Fed fleet sits around guarding earth.
Suddenly: Imperial fleet pops up.
One half from above and below, the second from left and right.
How do you avoid the heavy guns???

EDIT
Naaah, post arrived to late. Rob already dealt with that. [/quote]

Simple. You don't sit around waiting for the heavy guns to take aim- you move

[Sothis]

Is it my imagination, or is Sothis not even remotely capable of getting a clue?

“Show me this amazing firepower in a film and I'll believe it. Until then I'll take it with a pinch of salt.”

Lucasfilm canon is well-established, as anyone who’s spent any time digging into the franchise knows. Sothis is just desperately trying to write off the 200-gigaton figure to give the Feddies a better chance. That figure was endorsed by Lucasfilm itself for the new Incredible Cross-Sections book. That means it’s the real deal until it’s somehow proven that they can’t muster that kind of firepower. Sothis can either live with that, admit he has his head in the sand, or just be eternally in denial.

I should also note that just the sight of a heavy turbolaser delivering less firepower than that is not the proof I speak of. Delivering less firepower under any circumstances does not automatically mean they can’t crank it up to 200gt. We’d have to hear the maximum yield quoted to be less or see them using considerably lower firepower in a situation where they’d obviously be using maximum yield, such as a fight to the death against a force comparable to or superior to their own.

“Yawn- Point 1- Regardless of BDZ firepower, you HAVE seen the ISD haven't you? The weapons coverage that the HTL's provide ARE poorly placed, especially for hitting maneouverable Federation ships (well, maneouverable compared to every example of an Imperial capship shown on screen). A few seconds worth of ROTJ is contradicted straight off from TESB, when the two ISDs scraped into each other. If they possess such fantastic moving skills, why didn't they use them then?”

Unbelievable. It boggles my imagination to think that any fuctioning sentient organism with a working brain could think that the slightly superior maneuverability of Fed capital ships automatically translates to the Imp gunners having a tough time hitting them. Can you say 500-600 meter-long target?!?! For Christ’s sake!!!! And on top of this brain-dead belief, he “yawns” as though his position should be obvious to all!!! Did Sothis not recall these same Imp guns taking out 16-meter long starfighters that maneuver vastly better than even the Defiant?

Can you say, considerably better manueoverability than the ISDs and the like? All the Fed ships have to do is stay out of the range of the heavy guns. Not difficult, given their placement is poor to begin with.

And if the Imp guns are so great- then why is it that instead of the trench gun on the DS taking out those pesky fighters, TIEs had to be called in to do the job? An SSD takes out ONE fighter in ROTJ and suddenly this is the norm, couldn't

And even if some Fed ships did manage to approach from a position that was difficult for many of the Imp guns to hit, there’s the “small” matter of trying to damage vessels that regularly withstand orders of magnitude more firepower than the poor Feddies can possibly muster.

Sothis, stay in bed for a few days. If you’re yawning that much and making such incompetent statements, that brain of yours must need a massive recharge.[/quote]possibly be a stray or fortunate shot, noooo.

[Sothis]

If you want me to accept the notion of 200GT HTLs, then fine. I accept it. But their placement is still poor on ISDs, and as far as I'm aware, non-existent on the Carrack cruisers. I can't speak for the VSDs or the SSD (or the inderdictors).

[Mr Bean]

Acutal The death Star shot down quite a few fighters just listen to the we lost, and the communcations cutting off midsentance BEFORE the Ties showed up

Second how are they misplace?
They can shot near 360(Exception small blind stop on engines and the back of the tower itself)

Misplaced how?

[Sothis]

Acutal The death Star shot down quite a few fighters just listen to the we lost, and the communcations cutting off midsentance BEFORE the Ties showed up

Second how are they misplace?
They can shot near 360(Exception small blind stop on engines and the back of the tower itself)

Misplaced how?

If the DS shot down so many fighters though, and was doing a good job of it, why risk the lives of the TIE pilots by sending them out to dog-fight? I'll have to see ANH again regarding the whole communications stuff.

ISD HTLs don't protect the engines, or anything on the ship's underbelly. Plus, a ship skimming the surface of an ISD, or directly in front, is at minimal risk as well.

[Robert Treder]

The only pilot seen to die before the TIEs were launched was Porkins.

And it's true that HTLs don't cover the back very well or the ventral surface at all, but as far as skimming the surface or being directly in front is concerned, that would only provide haven for a starfighter...a capship can't exactly skim the surface of an ISD...and capships are the only thing the HTLs are interested in shooting.

[Captain Kruger]

Can you say, considerably better manueoverability than the ISDs and the like?

Doesn’t mean a thing. We’re talking about the ability of the ISD’s weapons to target and hit the Fed ships, not their ability to match their maneuvers. Matching their maneuvers tit-for-tat is not required. Ever heard of the Phalanx system? It’s that little thing that allows U.S. aircraft carriers to blast enemy jet fighters and even missiles out of the sky with devastating accuracy. Now the maneuverability advantage enjoyed by fighters over 300-meter-long aircraft carriers is INFINITELY greater than the deficit between ISDs and the heavier Fed ships. So by your logic, shooting those fighters out of the sky should be impossible, right? Maybe the U.S. government is just pulling the wool over our eyes and this system doesn’t really exist.

All the Fed ships have to do is stay out of the range of the heavy guns. Not difficult, given their placement is poor to begin with.

Not difficult? You think that hundreds of capital ships can maneuver around each other and be guaranteed to ALL stay out of the firing arcs of every single heavy turbolaser on dozens of Imperial ships? That’s not only stretching credibility, that’s snapping it like a twig. For the record, the ISD’s heavy guns (six, I believe?) are located on the dorsal section in full turrets. That means they can turn anywhere they need to face the target they want to hit. So any ISD can target and fire heavy guns at anything that isn’t “below” their orientation. That means every Fed ship would have to be oriented to the bottom of every Imp ship in order to create this ideal situation of yours. Again, that’s snapping credibility like a twig, especially since every Imp commander in the battle would be trying his best to bring his heavy guns to bear. And for the record Sothis, that would not require maneuverability, just a matter of changing orientation.

And if the Imp guns are so great- then why is it that instead of the trench gun on the DS taking out those pesky fighters, TIEs had to be called in to do the job?

You need to watch Ep 4 again. General Dodonna said in the briefing before the Battle of Yavin that the Death Star’s defenses were centered around stopping a heavy assault. What exactly would a heavy assault be? Certainly not a group of pesky fighters. If it weren’t for the thermal exhaust port weakness, no Rebel commander with a single working brain cell would think that 30 fighters could do anything to that battle station, so the Empire obviously figured they’d be facing capital ships. Many of those trench guns were undoubtedly heavy turbolasers, which are garbage at tracking one-man fighters. The point is that Dodonna specifically said that a group of fighters should be optimal for getting past the defenses.

An SSD takes out ONE fighter in ROTJ and suddenly this is the norm, couldn't

I never said it was the norm. In fact, I don’t recall seeing very many fighters getting nailed by capital ship point-defense guns. The point is that if ISD gunners can even occasionally hit one-man fighters, it is beyond ridiculous to assume that they’ll have trouble with targets nearly half the size of their own ship that don’t maneuver anywhere near as well as a fighter.

[Sothis]

Can you say, considerably better manueoverability than the ISDs and the like?

Doesn’t mean a thing. We’re talking about the ability of the ISD’s weapons to target and hit the Fed ships, not their ability to match their maneuvers. Matching their maneuvers tit-for-tat is not required. Ever heard of the Phalanx system? It’s that little thing that allows U.S. aircraft carriers to blast enemy jet fighters and even missiles out of the sky with devastating accuracy. Now the maneuverability advantage enjoyed by fighters over 300-meter-long aircraft carriers is INFINITELY greater than the deficit between ISDs and the heavier Fed ships. So by your logic, shooting those fighters out of the sky should be impossible, right? Maybe the U.S. government is just pulling the wool over our eyes and this system doesn’t really exist.

Ah, so the manueoverability advantage that Fed enjoy over Imp doesn't mean a thing does it? Bull, it means a lot. If you can't match your enemies manueoveres, you're going to have a difficult time acquiring your target. Unless your target is manueovering like a slug. Simply changing one's orientation means little when the target has completed changed it's location from side of the ship to the other.

I took a look at the Phalanx system. And you know what? SO what! How does a US system apply to an ISD fighting fighters/Fed ships?

All the Fed ships have to do is stay out of the range of the heavy guns. Not difficult, given their placement is poor to begin with.

Not difficult? You think that hundreds of capital ships can maneuver around each other and be guaranteed to ALL stay out of the firing arcs of every single heavy turbolaser on dozens of Imperial ships? That’s not only stretching credibility, that’s snapping it like a twig. For the record, the ISD’s heavy guns (six, I believe?) are located on the dorsal section in full turrets. That means they can turn anywhere they need to face the target they want to hit. So any ISD can target and fire heavy guns at anything that isn’t “below” their orientation. That means every Fed ship would have to be oriented to the bottom of every Imp ship in order to create this ideal situation of yours. Again, that’s snapping credibility like a twig, especially since every Imp commander in the battle would be trying his best to bring his heavy guns to bear. And for the record Sothis, that would not require maneuverability, just a matter of changing orientation..[/quote]

Straight out, I made no claims about a 100% sucess rate for avoiding the HTLs. You're inferring something that isn't there. I could just as well infer from what you've said that you believe the HTLs will have a 100% hit rate, but I won't, because that's silly.

ISD heavy guns don't protect the main engines or reactor, and aren't particularly useful for firing at a ship directly in front of the ISD. There's an awful lot of gaps in their firing arc to be exploited. And just as every Imp commander will be trying to bring their heavy weapons to bear, every Fed commander will be continuing to try and avoid them.

And if the Imp guns are so great- then why is it that instead of the trench gun on the DS taking out those pesky fighters, TIEs had to be called in to do the job?

You need to watch Ep 4 again. General Dodonna said in the briefing before the Battle of Yavin that the Death Star’s defenses were centered around stopping a heavy assault. What exactly would a heavy assault be? Certainly not a group of pesky fighters. If it weren’t for the thermal exhaust port weakness, no Rebel commander with a single working brain cell would think that 30 fighters could do anything to that battle station, so the Empire obviously figured they’d be facing capital ships. Many of those trench guns were undoubtedly heavy turbolasers, which are garbage at tracking one-man fighters. The point is that Dodonna specifically said that a group of fighters should be optimal for getting past the defenses.

An SSD takes out ONE fighter in ROTJ and suddenly this is the norm, couldn't

I never said it was the norm. In fact, I don’t recall seeing very many fighters getting nailed by capital ship point-defense guns. The point is that if ISD gunners can even occasionally hit one-man fighters, it is beyond ridiculous to assume that they’ll have trouble with targets nearly half the size of their own ship that don’t maneuver anywhere near as well as a fighter.[/quote]

If they only occasionally hit a fighter, with their poor coverage, then yes, they'll hit capships more often. But they'll struggle to hit Fed capships a great deal more than ships of their own manueovering standards and sizes.

[Captain Kruger]

Ah, so the manueoverability advantage that Fed enjoy over Imp doesn't mean a thing does it? Bull, it means a lot. If you can't match your enemies manueoveres, you're going to have a difficult time acquiring your target. Unless your target is manueovering like a slug. Simply changing one's orientation means little when the target has completed changed it's location from side of the ship to the other.

I took a look at the Phalanx system. And you know what? SO what! How does a US system apply to an ISD fighting fighters/Fed ships?

So these Fed ships ranging from 300-600 meters in length will just swarm around like a group of bees so quickly that the turrets on Imp ships can’t follow, eh? Sounds like you are guilty of what Rob Wilson accused you of after all: assuming they can move like SW fighters.

Do you think we’re talking about fighter combat here? These are vehicles with turrets, not fixed-in-one-spot weapons emplacements.

The point, since you COMPLETELY MISSED IT, is that if a modern, wallowing, sluggish, oceangoing vessel can use gatling guns to blast the crap out of highly maneuverable state-of-the-art warplanes measuring about 20 meters long, how are the Feds supposed to be guaranteed to sidestep turbolasers with their several-hundred-meter-long ships? The analogy does apply. But since you can’t get it, I’ll avoid analogies in the future.

Keep in mind: THE IMPS ONLY NEED ONE SHOT. One heavy turbolaser has the yield of 1,550 quantum torpedoes! Name a single Fed ship that can survive 1,550 simultaneous quantum torpedo hits at the same spot and not be turned into a vapor cloud.

Straight out, I made no claims about a 100% sucess rate for avoiding the HTLs. You're inferring something that isn't there. I could just as well infer from what you've said that you believe the HTLs will have a 100% hit rate, but I won't, because that's silly.

True. Obviously not all of the HTL shots will hit. But as I described above, they only need one hit to turn even the Sovereign-class Enterprise-E into trillions of sub-atomic particles. Sooner or later, that one hit will come.

ISD heavy guns don't protect the main engines or reactor,

Uh...there are these little things called shields? Shields that can survive prolonged battle against these same HTLs we’re talking about? Remember Ep 6? The Battle of Endor lasted, what, the better part of half an hour? How many thousands of HTLs would have scored direct hits against such enormous targets during that time? A single Sovereign-class Fed starship carries maybe 400 quantum torpedoes at most. (That’s being generous considering that the similar-sized Galaxy only carries 250 photons.) That means that it would take FOUR Sovereigns unloading their entire quantum payloads simultaneously into the same spot (utterly impossible) to equal the effect of getting hit by just one HTL shot.

How exactly do you expect to exploit any lack of coverage when you have to get through shields that strong?

and aren't particularly useful for firing at a ship directly in front of the ISD.

How do you figure this? Can you give a single example?

There's an awful lot of gaps in their firing arc to be exploited.

Which brings us back to the little problem of beating shields that can shrug off the entire torpedo payloads of a dozen Fed starships while they happen to be in those blind arcs.

And just as every Imp commander will be trying to bring their heavy weapons to bear, every Fed commander will be continuing to try and avoid them.

Hmm...

Imp gunner trying to bring a weapon to bear = swinging a turret around.
Fed commander trying to avoid said weapons = trying to maneuver an entire several-hundred-meter long target out of a roughly 250-degree firing arc.

Now let’s use some common sense when answering this question: who has the tougher job?

[Typhonis 1]

Could captured tech come into play like say stealing data on Omega? cause then you have the perfect tool to decapitate the Alpha Quadrant. detonate an Omega Molecule weapon near the system you want and you destrioy there abiltiy to use wapr and subspace communicatins

[Captain Kruger]

Could captured tech come into play like say stealing data on Omega? cause then you have the perfect tool to decapitate the Alpha Quadrant. detonate an Omega Molecule weapon near the system you want and you destrioy there abiltiy to use wapr and subspace communicatins

Ouch, that would hurt. You could destroy interstellar civilization in the region and isolate all star systems from each other. However, if I'm not mistaken, Imperial sensor technology is also based on subspace, so you'd screw your own ability to move around as well.

[Cpt_Frank]

Why not take simple subspace jamming?
That'll screw their comm/sensor systems up, and your ISD still has other means of scanning.
And btw, when going to a battle with a ST fleet, what about separating your fleet into four parts:
One part appears from above, the other from below, the others form left and right out of hyperspace.
That way, it will be totally impossible for them to avoid your heavy guns.

[Captain Kruger]

Good and solid tactics, Frank.

By the way, nice picture. Fett owns.

[IDMR]

If the DS shot down so many fighters though, and was doing a good job of it, why risk the lives of the TIE pilots by sending them out to dog-fight? I'll have to see ANH again regarding the whole communications stuff.

ISD HTLs don't protect the engines, or anything on the ship's underbelly. Plus, a ship skimming the surface of an ISD, or directly in front, is at minimal risk as well.

Just a few questions:

a.) If your aircraft carrier's SAM defences and CIWS are doing a good job of shooting down incoming missiles and fighters, would you scramble fighters?

b.) Did you remember the sequence which led to the TIEs being launched?

[Cpt_Frank]

Btw, the heavy guns actually do cover the front.
And if a ship avoids the heavy guns, it is at minimal risk?
Certainly not.
The ISD has many smaller guns dispersed all over the surface.
Several hits from them will kill a Trek ship as well.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Doesn’t mean a thing. We’re talking about the ability of the ISD’s weapons to target and hit the Fed ships, not their ability to match their maneuvers. Matching their maneuvers tit-for-tat is not required . Ever heard of the Phalanx system? It’s that little thing that allows U.S. aircraft carriers to blast enemy jet fighters and even missiles out of the sky with devastating accuracy. Now the maneuverability advantage enjoyed by fighters over 300-meter-long aircraft carriers is INFINITELY greater than the deficit between ISDs and the heavier Fed ships. So by your logic, shooting those fighters out of the sky should be impossible, right? Maybe the U.S. government is just pulling the wool over our eyes and this system doesn’t really exist.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah, so the manueoverability advantage that Fed enjoy over Imp doesn't mean a thing does it? Bull, it means a lot. If you can't match your enemies manueoveres, you're going to have a difficult time acquiring your target. Unless your target is manueovering like a slug. Simply changing one's orientation means little when the target has completed changed it's location from side of the ship to the other.

I took a look at the Phalanx system. And you know what? SO what! How does a US system apply to an ISD fighting fighters/Fed ships?

ANYONE WITH BRAIN can understand the Phalanx analogy without sweating. See, maneuverability doesn't really matter since the carrier doesn't have to manuver ITSELF to counter enemy fighters / missiles (which is FAR more maneuverable than the carrier itself), just rotate it Phalanx guns with sufficient accuracy. The same can be applied to Star Destroyer / Death Star defending itself against Fed ships. The ISDs doesn't have to outmaneuver the Fed ships, just aim their guns ala Phalanx.

To quote Mike Wong: "With hundreds of weapons dotting their hulls and covering virtually every angle, these ships are not designed to maneuver their way into positions of advantage over an enemy. They are designed to simply unleash huge volumes of fire in any direction, to engage smaller and more maneuverable enemies."
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tac ... uver2.html

I just CAN'T believe Sothis cannot comprehend such SIMPLE THING. "I took a look at the Phalanx system. And you know what? SO what! How does a US system apply to an ISD fighting fighters/Fed ships?" Egad. EGAD. Captain Kruger will have LESS trouble explaining Algebra to Kindergarten students.

Besides, this whole point can be MOOT. Feds ships DO maneuver in combat, BUT in large sweeping turns instead of sharp turning and jinking like starfighters do. Their maneuverability is NOWHERE near SW fighters.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tac ... uver1.html

Who's this Sothis guy anyway? Finally, someone worse than Shadow....[/quote]

[Shadow]

They are living organisms. They must have some form of control over their body temperatures. Besides, even merely absorbing radiation from stars and the such they will show up on IR. Prove its a normal ship, it looks different. How is it the same if it looks different? Well, Borg have never shown weapontry of the GT scale, they could beat S8472. The Borg killed em with ramming for god sake. RAMMING! Beisdes, be reasonable here, how does flesh beat friggen 200 GT weapons?

The bio-ship could vent waste heat into subspace. How is the Imperial ship going to detect this heat. Why would a bio-ship be travelling in normal space? Do you have any proof of the yield required to destroy a bio-ship? Only nanoprobe-equipped torpedos and ramming have destroyed them. The ramming applied kinetic energy, which bio-ships may be weaker to, and it may have impacted against antimatter that the Cube was carrying.

Bio-ship Focusing Firepower
When the Bio-ships combine their firepower, an number of ships form a circle with single ship in the center. This ship then changes shape, moving its larger fins into its center and folding back its front limbs. It is then ready to channel the power from the other bio-ships.-ST: The Magazine

Bio life forms generate heat
Even if its a little bit it shows up aginst the -40 *C tempture of space rather well don't you think?


How do we know they generated heat?
Simple The Entprise crew was not walking around in Parkas and snow-dog teams mushing through the Ice in the ship

BIO SHIPS GENERATE HEAT
NEARLY ALL SHIPS GENERATE HEAT

Answered above.

If species 8472 dares to attack the Empire, then they will be destroyed.
Not even the Great Almighty Bio Ships can withstand the laws of physic (generation of heat), or gigatons of firepower.

S8472 isn't vulnerable to attack because they usually stay in fluidic space. They only have to open a quantum singularity above a planet, pop out and blow up the planet, and go back in. The Empire would lose the Emperor and all the major planets in a day, causing it collapse. S8472 could then take their time destroying everything else.

[JJP]

Evidence that 8472 planet killers can penetrate planetary shields that stood up to the Death Star? Evidence that they can open singularites wherever they want? (Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall them being able to do this)

[VF5SS]

The bio-ship could vent waste heat into subspace. How is the Imperial ship going to detect this heat. Why would a bio-ship be travelling in normal space? Do you have any proof of the yield required to destroy a bio-ship? Only nanoprobe-equipped torpedos and ramming have destroyed them. The ramming applied kinetic energy, which bio-ships may be weaker to, and it may have impacted against antimatter that the Cube was carrying.

Where do you get this heat into subspace shit? Well if kinetic energy is their bane, I'm sure they'll love being shot at by a bunch of Concussion missiles! Oh and where do you get this they impacted against the anti-matter crap? Anti-matter is in the middle of the ship where the reactor is. If they're pumpng it every which way, then the Borg are dumber than I thought.

Bio-ship Focusing Firepower
When the Bio-ships combine their firepower, an number of ships form a circle with single ship in the center. This ship then changes shape, moving its larger fins into its center and folding back its front limbs. It is then ready to channel the power from the other bio-ships.-ST: The Magazine

ST the magazine is not canon.

S8472 isn't vulnerable to attack because they usually stay in fluidic space. They only have to open a quantum singularity above a planet, pop out and blow up the planet, and go back in. The Empire would lose the Emperor and all the major planets in a day, causing it collapse. S8472 could then take their time destroying everything else.

Proove that they can do this.

[Shadow]

Evidence that 8472 planet killers can penetrate planetary shields that stood up to the Death Star? Evidence that they can open singularites wherever they want? (Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall them being able to do this)

Their is no evidence the shield stood up to the Death Star. Shields usually flash before they collapse.They open one at the end of part 1 of "Scorpion."
[quote="VF5SS]Where do you get this heat into subspace shit? Well if kinetic energy is their bane, I'm sure they'll love being shot at by a bunch of Concussion missiles! Oh and where do you get this they impacted against the anti-matter crap? Anti-matter is in the middle of the ship where the reactor is. If they're pumpng it every which way, then the Borg are dumber than I thought.[/quote]

Where do you get this heat into subspace shit? Well if kinetic energy is their bane, I'm sure they'll love being shot at by a bunch of Concussion missiles! Oh and where do you get this they impacted against the anti-matter crap? Anti-matter is in the middle of the ship where the reactor is. If they're pumpng it every which way, then the Borg are dumber than I thought.

Releasing haet into subspace is an explanation of why they cannot be detected. Antimatter should be held near the outer hull to be ejected quickly.

ST the magazine is not canon.

It agrees with evidence, so it is still more valid than speculation.

Proove that they can do this.

They perform this strategy at the end of "Scorpion."

[VF5SS]

Holding anti-matter in the outer walls is a bad thing. Those thin tubes and duct work are thin enough without having anti-matter making them burst every time the ship is hit.