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emersonlakeandbalmer wrote:

Knife wrote:Your personal prerogative I suppose. I don't see much of a difference. I can watch a mob movie and be SOD with police chiefs and major business leaders being corrupt and in league with bad guys as their henchmen and patsies, so I'm fine with huge interstellar trade organizations being corrupt and in league with bad guys as their henchmen and patsies.

The difference being in those mob movies you usual see the police taking a bride and understand what's in it for them. Who knows what in it for the TF. Taxes? Every defender here seems to think taxes aren't even important, which apparently they aren't since everyone has a different theory one who or what the fucking taxes are about. Is it the loot from the invasion? Maybe. Its never said if they get to keep the planet or how that benefits their irrelevant tax situation.

LOL, no you don't. And even when you do it's just to reinforce that the guys with good guy suites on are actually bad guys, not to reinforce 'what's in it for them'. We don't need to know exactly what, as if their are a bunch of bullet points, the Trade Fed gets, they obviously are OK with what they get out of the deal. And the kicker, Palpatine's plan seems to have always been to let them take the fall, and kill off anyone who knew of his direct involvement. So, I'm sure Palpy offered all sorts of cool shit to the Trade Fed he never planed to give it all. So, as a viewer, who cares and who gives a shit the fine details? Besides you, of course.

Knife wrote:LOL, no you don't. And even when you do it's just to reinforce that the guys with good guy suites on are actually bad guys, not to reinforce 'what's in it for them'. We don't need to know exactly what, as if their are a bunch of bullet points, the Trade Fed gets, they obviously are OK with what they get out of the deal. And the kicker, Palpatine's plan seems to have always been to let them take the fall, and kill off anyone who knew of his direct involvement. So, I'm sure Palpy offered all sorts of cool shit to the Trade Fed he never planed to give it all. So, as a viewer, who cares and who gives a shit the fine details? Besides you, of course.

LOL you're an idiot. Please cite some examples where you do not see or hear about the police being bribed in a gangster movie. You are right though, the scene is not to reinforce "what's in it for them" it establishes that along with the fact that they're in the pocket of the gangsters. Well written movies can establish two things at once. TPM can barely do one. You're sure palpy offered all sorts of things? That's great, I'm sure in all those gangster movies had cops fly around on jetpacks, sure you never see it on screen, but I like making shit up.

Also, they're OBVIOUSLY ok with what they get? Is that why they say shit like -
"We should not have made this bargain" and "Is that LEGAL?"

OR "is that Regal" if you want to hear it in the weird ass slightly racist accent Lucas gave them.

Yes, they obviously were okay with what they thought they'd get out of the deal, which is why they made it. Some of us are smart enough to realize that without having the details of the deal having to be spelled out for them.

Oh noes! They're thinking this might not have been such a good idea afterall and ask for reassurance. They get cold feet when the Republic actually sends Jedi of all people to investigate. Nothing like that ever happened in gangster movies. No henchmen ever called his boss and wailed about he was about to be busted only to have the boss reassure him it wouldn't be a problem. None of them ever wailed they made a bad decision. Nope. TPM was the first time that ever happened.

Seriously, 10 year olds could comprehend this movie. Who cares about the details of the deal Palpy made with the Neimodians? The only important part is that he had a deal. The details are completely irrelevant. The Trade Federation made a deal with him, it's apparently not working out as planned, they panic, Palpy tells them all is going to be well, they go through with the invasion trusting he will. That's not exactly rocket science.

So if I get this right, the motivations of people in stories don't matter as long as you can make some up. I guess that there's nothing compelling or unusual about Anton Chigurh or Judge Holden, since they're typical as far as villains go, having no discernible motivation for the actions they undertake.

Batman wrote:Yes, they obviously were okay with what they thought they'd get out of the deal, which is why they made it. Some of us are smart enough to realize that without having the details of the deal having to be spelled out for them.

It's so obvious that you smart dudes, know all you need to know. That is great, seriously its awesome that you can like shit and pretend the fundamentals of decent storytelling don't matter. You're like that retard in the lawnmower man that became super smart, so smart he wanted to live inside a Pentium processor. You know how sweet that would be? Pretty fucking rad if you ask me.

Oh noes! They're thinking this might not have been such a good idea afterall and ask for reassurance. They get cold feet when the Republic actually sends Jedi of all people to investigate. Nothing like that ever happened in gangster movies. No henchmen ever called his boss and wailed about he was about to be busted only to have the boss reassure him it wouldn't be a problem. None of them ever wailed they made a bad decision. Nope. TPM was the first time that ever happened.

yawn... no one ever said that didn't happen in gangster movies. I asked where in gangster movies we don't know the motivation of the patsy. Sure we see him wail to the boss, but we know why he ended up in that position in the first place. TPM is the first time someone did it with such utter fucking incompetence it almost become enjoyable.

Seriously, 10 year olds could comprehend this movie. Who cares about the details of the deal Palpy made with the Neimodians? The only important part is that he had a deal. The details are completely irrelevant. The Trade Federation made a deal with him, it's apparently not working out as planned, they panic, Palpy tells them all is going to be well, they go through with the invasion trusting he will. That's not exactly rocket science.

Of course 10 year olds can comprehend this. It's got lights and shit explodes, a rabbit steps in poop and a little boy leaves his mom in slavery, those are all things we can get behind. So lets get some ten year olds and ask them about the taxes and what the TF is, I'm sure they can comprehend the shit out of it and put it this thread to rest. While we're at it lets put these kids on rocket science.

Bakustra wrote:So if I get this right, the motivations of people in stories don't matter as long as you can make some up. I guess that there's nothing compelling or unusual about Anton Chigurh or Judge Holden, since they're typical as far as villains go, having no discernible motivation for the actions they undertake.

The motivations of characters do. The Trade Federation were no characters. They were the Bad Guys. Nothing more was needed to know. You know, just like the Empire in the OT. Unless you've relentlessly asked yourself why the Empire did what it did in ANH and how Vader became the big bad villain (whose background you absolutely had no idea about back then, he just was).
Who cares what they're after? They're just there so we have a Bad Guy. Sometimes a popcorn movie is nothing more than a popcorn movie.

Batman wrote:

Bakustra wrote:So if I get this right, the motivations of people in stories don't matter as long as you can make some up. I guess that there's nothing compelling or unusual about Anton Chigurh or Judge Holden, since they're typical as far as villains go, having no discernible motivation for the actions they undertake.

The motivations of characters do. The Trade Federation were no characters. They were the Bad Guys. Nothing more was needed to know. You know, just like the Empire in the OT. Unless you've relentlessly asked yourself why the Empire did what it did in ANH and how Vader became the big bad villain (whose background you absolutely had no idea about back then, he just was).
Who cares what they're after? They're just there so we have a Bad Guy. Sometimes a popcorn movie is nothing more than a popcorn movie.

People cared enough about the motivations of Vader that that's what the entire PT was supposed to be about. Besides, the reasons the Empire has for doing what it does are very clear. There are rebels. The rebels have stolen plans for a secret Imperial weapon. The weapon is to be used to cement Imperial control and destroy the rebels. The Empire wants to make sure the rebels can't do anything about this. That's ANH covered.

Meanwhile, in TPM, we have the Trade Federation, who are carrying out a blockade for something to do with taxes, and invade a planet on the say-so of a hologram. What do they get out of this? Nobody knows, and that hurts the film, because they're taking nonsensical actions without representing anything greater, as the characters I brought up do. If we had some clue about their motivations, then we can understand why they're doing this, and the film suddenly makes more sense.

By the way, provide one movie where the villains have no discernible motivations that's not TPM.

emersonlakeandbalmer wrote:

Batman wrote:Yes, they obviously were okay with what they thought they'd get out of the deal, which is why they made it. Some of us are smart enough to realize that without having the details of the deal having to be spelled out for them.

It's so obvious that you smart dudes, know all you need to know. That is great, seriously its awesome that you can like shit and pretend the fundamentals of decent storytelling don't matter.

The one fundamental rule of storytelling in movies is 'did the audience like it'. Guess what-it did. TMP made oodles of money. That it didn't match your standards of what storytelling ought to be is not my problem.

Oh noes! They're thinking this might not have been such a good idea afterall and ask for reassurance. They get cold feet when the Republic actually sends Jedi of all people to investigate. Nothing like that ever happened in gangster movies. No henchmen ever called his boss and wailed about he was about to be busted only to have the boss reassure him it wouldn't be a problem. None of them ever wailed they made a bad decision. Nope. TPM was the first time that ever happened.

yawn... no one ever said that didn't happen in gangster movies. I asked where in gangster movies we don't know the motivation of the patsy.

Half the time it's 'I have a plan', I' have it covered', or something equally obscure-you know, just like in TPM?

Sure we see him wail to the boss, but we know why he ended up in that position in the first place.

We did see so in TPM too, genius. The Republic decided not to play ball and Palpy's minions panicked. Unless you want to argue every gangster movie in history detailed what trouble the henchmen got in and the way their boss was about to get them out of it.

TPM is the first time someone did it with such utter fucking incompetence it almost become enjoyable.

Something tells me a lot worse has happened in real world history. Probably repeateldy.

Seriously, 10 year olds could comprehend this movie. Who cares abo

ut the details of the deal Palpy made with the Neimodians? The only important part is that he had a deal. The details are completely irrelevant. The Trade Federation made a deal with him, it's apparently not working out as planned, they panic, Palpy tells them all is going to be well, they go through with the invasion trusting he will. That's not exactly rocket science.

Of course 10 year olds can comprehend this. It's got lights and shit explodes, a rabbit steps in poop and a little boy leaves his mom in slavery, those are all things we can get behind. So lets get some ten year olds and ask them about the taxes and what the TF is, I'm sure they can comprehend the shit out of it and put it this thread to rest. While we're at it lets put these kids on rocket science.

Concession accepted.

Bakustra wrote:

Batman wrote:

Bakustra wrote:So if I get this right, the motivations of people in stories don't matter as long as you can make some up. I guess that there's nothing compelling or unusual about Anton Chigurh or Judge Holden, since they're typical as far as villains go, having no discernible motivation for the actions they undertake.

The motivations of characters do. The Trade Federation were no characters. They were the Bad Guys. Nothing more was needed to know. You know, just like the Empire in the OT. Unless you've relentlessly asked yourself why the Empire did what it did in ANH and how Vader became the big bad villain (whose background you absolutely had no idea about back then, he just was).
Who cares what they're after? They're just there so we have a Bad Guy. Sometimes a popcorn movie is nothing more than a popcorn movie.

People cared enough about the motivations of Vader that that's what the entire PT was supposed to be about.

And automatic fail. PT. People didn't know beans about Vader's motivations when the OT came out[/i]-and yet he remains the series' most riveting villain. That's funny, he doesn't exactly become a character until 'I am your father!' Until then, the Empire remains a faceless evil that is evil because, well, it's evil You don't need evil characters for the Bad Guys to be the Bad Guys.

Meanwhile, in TPM, we have the Trade Federation, who are carrying out a blockade for something to do with taxes, and invade a planet on the say-so of a hologram. What do they get out of this? Nobody knows,

and nobody but you cares what their reasons are.

and that hurts the film, because they're taking nonsensical actions without representing anything greater

Why would they have to? They're the Bad Guys, doing evil things. They're the Bad Guys. They're supposed to.

, as the characters I brought up do. If we had some clue about their motivations, then we can understand why they're doing this, and the film suddenly makes more sense.

Their motivations are completely irrelevant.

Batman wrote:The one fundamental rule of storytelling in movies is 'did the audience like it'. Guess what-it did. TMP made oodles of money. That it didn't match your standards of what storytelling ought to be is not my problem.

I remember that from English Lit. The golden rules of storytelling. That's why Michael Crichton is taught above the likes of Hemingway and Fitzgerald. The Old Man and the Sea got lots of words i don't know and stuff, but you ever read Disclosure? shits genius yo. I could almost see Demi Moore's titties coming out the pages.

Half the time it's 'I have a plan', I' have it covered', or something equally obscure-you know, just like in TPM?

What movie was that from again? Is it the same movie that helps you make up shit you don't have answer too? Or maybe its from the Fundamental Rules of Storytelling class?

TPM is the first time someone did it with such utter fucking incompetence it almost become enjoyable.

Something tells me a lot worse has happened in real world history. Probably repeateldy.

You're right it wasn't the first. Just the most expensive incompetence.

Concession accepted.

Oh, shits. I didn't know you was 10. You skooled us bro, good work. Let me know how that rocketship lands.

And automatic fail. PT. People didn't know beans about Vader's motivations when the OT came out[/i]-and yet he remains the series' most riveting villain. That's funny, he doesn't exactly become a character until 'I am your father!' Until then, the Empire remains a faceless evil that is evil because, well, it's evil You don't need evil characters for the Bad Guys to be the Bad Guys.

Its cool because I know you're 10 and what not, so you probably didn't see it in the theater. But we know Vader motivation from the first scene in the movie. He wants some plans the rebels stole so he choke this mother fucker, who's all like "I don't have them" Vader's like "bullshit, tear this place apart, find the plans or bring me more people to fuck up until we got them plans"

The TF on the other hand is like "Is that Regal?" And we're like, "What I thought you were blockading for taxes... zzzzzzzzz"

[quote="Batman"][/quote]

Are you really so fucking stupid that you think that Vader is compelling in spite of his connection to Luke? I guess you are, since you don't know how sentences work.

I asked you a question. Answer it, please. If you can't answer it, don't sit at the keyboard biting your nails and whimpering, either. Just say, "I am unable to answer you at this time."

emersonlakeandbalmer wrote:

And automatic fail. PT. People didn't know beans about Vader's motivations when the OT came out[/i]-and yet he remains the series' most riveting villain. That's funny, he doesn't exactly become a character until 'I am your father!' Until then, the Empire remains a faceless evil that is evil because, well, it's evil You don't need evil characters for the Bad Guys to be the Bad Guys.

Its cool because I know you're 10 and what not, so you probably didn't see it in the theater. But we know Vader motivation from the first scene in the movie. He wants some plans the rebels stole so he choke this mother fucker, who's all like "I don't have them" Vader's like "bullshit, tear this place apart, find the plans or bring me more people to fuck up until we got them plans"

The TF on the other hand is like "Is that Regal?" And we're like, "What I thought you were blockading for taxes... zzzzzzzzz"

And the part that makes him an actual character in this is...?

Bakustra wrote:

Batman wrote:

Are you really so fucking stupid that you think that Vader is compelling in spite of his connection to Luke? I guess you are, since you don't know how sentences work.
I asked you a question. Answer it, please. If you can't answer it, don't sit at the keyboard biting your nails and whimpering, either. Just say, "I am unable to answer you at this time."

No, you miserable piece of shit, I said Vader was a compelling villain from the word 'Go', 'despite' not having any personal connection to anybody (he was undeniably the villain of what would become ANH before the him/Luke/Kenobi connection was ever mentioned).

And the part that makes him an actual character in this is...?

Character? we were talking about motivation or to simplify it for you, the part where he wants stuff. Character comes later, like when we find out he murdered and betrayed the Jedi, most likely with some bad ass choking and shit (turns out he just killed some kids, the clones did all the hard work).

emersonlakeandbalmer wrote:

And the part that makes him an actual character in this is...?

Character? we were talking about motivation or to simplify it for you, the part where he wants stuff. Character comes later, like when we find out he murdered and betrayed the Jedi, most likely with some bad ass choking and shit (turns out he just killed some kids, the clones did all the hard work).

What was his motivation in ANH then? Everybody except you saw that he wore black, did evil things, and worked for the evil (as per the opening script) Empire and managed to figure out he was the villain.

Batman wrote: No, you miserable piece of shit, I said Vader was a compelling villain from the word 'Go', 'despite' not having any personal connection to anybody (he was undeniably the villain of what would become ANH before the him/Luke/Kenobi connection was ever mentioned).

Answer my question, you fucking coward. It's words on a fucking screen, stop running away from them.

PS: Vader demonstrates character traits in ANH as well, showcasing things like emotions. I realize your damaged mind cannot comprehend how these things relate to why he's so memorable when plenty of other movies and series with excellent villain design have faded over time, but don't broadcast it.

Batman wrote: What was his motivation in ANH then? Everybody except you saw that he wore black, did evil things, and worked for the evil (as per the opening script) Empire and managed to figure out he was the villain.

Do you not know how to read words? He wanted the plans the rebels stole about how the death star was the Pinto of the galaxy and could explode if you hit it just right. I guess they should have cut that part out, just got right to the choking without questions, because you know, we get the point HE'S EVIL! Like the TF, we know they're evil, they have foreign accents. Who gives a shit about why or even what they want, we got comical scenes about slaves head's blowing up to get too.

They should have just mimed the whole thing. Talkies are overrated and so is character development.

Destructionator XIII wrote:I have a confession to make. I'm a troll. I've been lying through this thread.

The Phantom Menace is actually one of my favorite movies of all time.

This is more upsetting then the time when that dude who had no character traits said "I'm your father" and then he became a real character.

That's the bigger problem, IMO. We're never given a glimpse of the catastrophic death toll, so it doesn't really seem like much of a crisis at all.

Totally - its all terribly antiseptic and "informed characteristics" as opposed to showing anything meant to evoke a reaction. Even some battle droids pushing around crowds of people, crying kids, something, would've made it seem more real than it does.

You know, when someone with education in any certain scientific field here gets confronted with really stupid claims from some random idiot who doesn't even know the basics, it's totally cool for them to say, "No I'm not going to teach this concept to you, you're just an idiot, please go die now."

Is it cool for people who can grasp the basic concepts of decent storytelling to do the same? Because for fuck's sake, Batman and co. have managed to positively demonstrate a negative amount of knowledge in the field.

Vympel wrote:

That's the bigger problem, IMO. We're never given a glimpse of the catastrophic death toll, so it doesn't really seem like much of a crisis at all.

Totally - its all terribly antiseptic and "informed characteristics" as opposed to showing anything meant to evoke a reaction. Even some battle droids pushing around crowds of people, crying kids, something, would've made it seem more real than it does.

I had actually always assumed the transmission was faked by the Trade Fed as a ruse and the occupation was what we saw. There you go.

The Trade Federation is absolutely not just a group of henchmen, just like House Harkonnen isn't just a group of henchmen for Emperor Shaddam IV, they're one of the major political players wielding considerable influence. Palpatine in his Sidious persona in comparison is a nobody who can't even reveal his real identity and who can at most trust just one other person to know his real plans. Showing how he got into a position where he could control a major interstellar faction at will would have been way more interesting than most of the Tatooine segment. Face it, the PT is as much the story of the rise of Palpatine as it is the story of the fall of Anakin, considering it's the formers actions which drive the entire plot, not so much the latter's who is mostly just reacting to the events.

Vympel wrote:

That's the bigger problem, IMO. We're never given a glimpse of the catastrophic death toll, so it doesn't really seem like much of a crisis at all.

Totally - its all terribly antiseptic and "informed characteristics" as opposed to showing anything meant to evoke a reaction. Even some battle droids pushing around crowds of people, crying kids, something, would've made it seem more real than it does.

I'll give you that. A lot of the stuff in TPM is implied and symbolism, where as some actual on screen content would have helped. That said, a lot of the bitching and griping in this thread is about how they should have put on screen some stuff that is unnecessary and would bog down the movie more than it was.

Edit: fixed a typo.