StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Today's sketches were inspired by Crossroads and his idea for a study/library/meeting area. As a reminder, here's Crossroad's sketch:


And here is what I came up with:


The small rooms are set up for meetings, small classes, or individual or small group projects/study. There's a built-in desk area for computer use (note the laptop in the illustration), a table, chairs, black board, and small storage cabinet/shelf. The rooms can be re-arranged, tables taken out, chairs added or not, and so on. If a lot of furniture is moved out of individual rooms one of the rooms could be used for storage. I'm assuming the tables are collapsible/foldable, whatever, and the chairs are stackable.


Bathrooms, as requested:


The reading/lending library area - I didn't add seating because my stock couch looked like crap and I didn't have time to cook up a new one this afternoon. But assume comfortable chairs and couches. The area is decorated a little differently than elsewhere, the shelves are wood, and there is an area of plants surrounded by a gravel bed as decoration, backed by a mirror which will make the area look bigger. For the sake of the plants (and people) this is a small area with "daylight" lighting which would dim at night, but lights/lamps will be near the seating for those using the area at night.


The hallways are carpeted to reduce noise.

And finally, the central meeting room:

It's a big room - the seating arrangement depicted is for 72 people, and there is ample room for more. Keep in mind, that would be 1/3 of a 250 person shelter, and you could probably fit half of such a shelter into such a room. The seats are different colors because I could make them that way - I got bored using the same color over and over. The meeting room can be emptied out, seating added, tables added, whatever. We might want to make it "double height" given the size, as a standard size ceiling might feel too low in proportion to the size of the room.

Broomstick - I'd open that layout up by removing the inner wall, and my making the study pods have a glass wall to the central area, with blinds obviously. The totally closed off study room doesn't work for a lot of people in practice.

In which WiresCrossed shows just how oblivious he can be.

Hmm..... nice idea, I'll work it up tomorrow.

The only thing is that at some point you DO need structural walls or pillars to hold things up. Spanning large volumes without support is certainly possible but can increase costs. I'll see what I can come up with.

Broomstick wrote:Hmm..... nice idea, I'll work it up tomorrow.

The only thing is that at some point you DO need structural walls or pillars to hold things up. Spanning large volumes without support is certainly possible but can increase costs. I'll see what I can come up with.

Oh quite. By opening it up though you can add some small pillars (maybe with planters around them) closer to the center, thus adding structural supports, and opening the room up.

Crossroads Inc. wrote:Ok... I feel the need to step in here. While I appreciate and approve of Salm's attempt to conserve space here, indeed many of his ideas have merit and could be useful (changeable furniture and such). I would like to come in with a few numbers that would state that, well, we don't NEED to save that much space....snip....
3: From a gov website HERE the "useful" space for Site-R is

The "footprint" is nearly 260,000 square feet with total usable floor space of 700,000 square feet.

. 700,000 useful cubic feet of floorspace. Now even if we put all 1000 people in a single site, that would work out to 700cubic feet PER PERSON.

salm wrote:@Crossroads Inc:
Hmm... ok. That´s a point.
So are there any interesting architectural points to solve or is this just going to be a "lets build a gigantic subterranian housing complex the size of a small town?
If that´s the case the residential areas can be copied from pretty much any hotel or housing complex and the case can be closed as an allready solved, trivial matter.

Just take any highrise complex and flatten it out to be all on one floor. You can easily fit 1000 people into a modern housing complex and provide them with all necessary recreational and commercial areas.

Asemwald, built in the 60s, is a fine example for that (~holds about 2400 people + recreational and commercial areas).

I think you're both missing something. If you have 700,000 square feet (or whatever unit you're using) and 1,000 people living there for 10 years that's NOT 700 square feet per person to live in. If you're there for 10 years with essentially no resupply possible that 700 square feet is living AND storage space per person.

Also, unlike the "any highrise complex" this is not a situation where you can leave the complex. For a long time period, months or maybe even an entire decade, that is ALL the space in which you can exist. You can't go outside for a breath of fresh air like at Asemwald, which has significant green space around it. You can't go down the block to another part of the city. That Bunker is ALL you get for a long period of time.

Under those circumstances 700 square feet is NOT a lot of space. Do you have any idea what just one year's worth of supplies looks like for a single person? And we might need ten times that?

My current residence is about 1100 square feet shared between two people. I can keep, maybe, a month's worth of stuff on hand in it. If I threw out everything but the bare essentials I MIGHT be able to stock a year's worth of stuff in there, with one room to actually live in. Ten year's worth? Not a chance.

I'm not at all sure how much cubic space you'd need for 10 year's worth of stuff, but it's probably bigger than most of us suppose.

Of course, if we picked a big salt mine so when we build out to "700 square feet per person" that's actual living space, with the "warehouse" being lots more space in raw rock tunnels, that starts to make more sense.

However, consider this - the "bedrooms" I have sketched out in the latest iteration, the 12 person dorm, are 300 square feet right there. So if you put one person in such a space that's half of all their allotted space. Taking into account the entire 12 person "dorm" under present configuration - which folks are still saying is tight - it's 415 square feet per person already, with the next "allotted" 300 or so being their share of all the other public areas - dining halls, exercise areas, corridors with potted plants, everything else. The more dense your sleeping arrangements, the more vertical storage you use (notice how I have closets, shelves, and cabinets everywhere?) the more square footage you can devote to such "luxuries" as a gym to exercise in or a park area.

No, 700,000 square feet is not as much as you think. Not if you have to live there for 10 years. Not if you need to fit yourself AND 10 years of crap into the space with you. We are ALL used to the luxury of lots and lots of space. Even those super-space-saving apartments Salm is showing us - the people who live in those can go outside and experience open space, other locations, they may only have a small box for their stuff but they can wander much farther.

I like the 'study pod' design, my only suggestion would be to make the wall between the 'lecture hall' and the 'library' to be collapsable/foldable, with just a few solid pillars. The space of the hall can be broken up with tables/chairs/couches into reading and conversation areas, and can be configured for a lecture when necessary while allowing 3-4 more rows of chairs.

My reasoning for this is that unless you're teaching classes daily, that main room is going to be largely unused, and it would turn the whole pod into a communal meeting place. Perhaps if it was located near a commissary, you could even have a 'coffee shop' environment.

There is something that you can do to make things easier for long term in-habitation, but it can't be modeled easily. That is have many differing hall layouts and decor so that as the years go by you can rotate living spaces and get some change in environment. This can ease things greatly on our psychological health and makes it easier to ignore the problem of a cramped unchanging environment. But I would not ask Broomstick to bother with many differing layouts due to the excess time it would take.

OK, I couldn't stay away - here's the re-do with a high ceiling for the center area and the walls opened up. I opted for arches and curves as those are a strong method of bridging an expanse and carrying loads.

I didn't change the furniture, but I did add frosted glass panels to the study rooms and you can certainly use the center area as a gathering point.

I left the corner study rooms with solid walls so if someone wants something more enclosed they can have it, and also under the assumption those would be used as store rooms if needed, leaving the other study rooms available.

salm wrote:@Crossroads Inc:
Hmm... ok. That´s a point.
So are there any interesting architectural points to solve or is this just going to be a "lets build a gigantic subterranian housing complex the size of a small town?
If that´s the case the residential areas can be copied from pretty much any hotel or housing complex and the case can be closed as an allready solved, trivial matter.

Just take any highrise complex and flatten it out to be all on one floor. You can easily fit 1000 people into a modern housing complex and provide them with all necessary recreational and commercial areas.

Asemwald, built in the 60s, is a fine example for that (~holds about 2400 people + recreational and commercial areas).

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No need for bunk beds, tubes or similar inconveniences. Everybody gets his own appartement and we add a couple of recreational areas, as well as some workshops and educational facilities and it´s finished.

Here are the floorplans for single, double and tripple room appartements:

link

A single room appartement takes up 45m² (480 sqare feet) so housing for 1000 people should take up 45,000m² (480,000 square feet).

This particular complex is very well recieved by its residents and the inhabitants have a relatively high standard of living making it a good example to copy.

Something to keep in mind with something like that is, well, we need to keep things "Pretty" try and make things too dense and you'll end up with another Pruit Igoe and NO ONE wants that. I will say a lot of your ideas are good ideas, I mentioned how much I liked the "flex furniture" there is a lot of good potential in all of that.

Your comment about

Saving space and maximizing the utility of used space is the same thing.

Should be well noted. I think folks got too carried away with the "OMG Beehive rooms!" to notice some of your other ideas, I am curious how best to implement then into some of the existing ideas.

"Ms." Broomstick has so far been the best at laying things out, that and she is already following Fed guidelines for sizes and hallway spaces and the such. I REALLY am amazed by the job you did on the "study pod" So much more detailed then I could have imagined, yet very much in line with what I initially thought of. I based the initial layout out on a similar 'study hall' at the library of my old college. What Broom came up with is not too far off from what it looked like I also Very much approve of the Lending Library section I love the planter idea along with the lightning. Of course those are things I envision all over in the Vault in any case

I will say on the improved version, I think Broom might have gone a 'bit' overbored on the size of the vaulted ceiling. Don't know they need to be that big, but I totally dig the vaulted arches. And the windows on all of the personal study areas is again a very nice touch.

Crossroads Inc. wrote:"Ms." Broomstick has so far been the best at laying things out, that and she is already following Fed guidelines for sizes and hallway spaces and the such.

Do keep in mind that I have both professional training and experience in art and experience in construction trades. I originally learned to make drawings of that nature with a pencil and paper - back in 1978 when I took my first drafting class computer aided design essentially didn't exist in the civilian world, and certainly not outside of someplace like, maybe, an MIT or the military. What's new is the tool I'm using, the software. And let me say that the software makes doing these sorts of drawings MUCH easier! (Maybe that's why the household's old fashioned, massive oak drawing table is now used as a computer table?) While I do miss some of the tactile experience of pencil and paper drawing using the computer is MUCH less tedious and there's much less calculating of angles. Not to mention that with the software I can flip things around on the screen so I can show people what's in my head instead of having to laboriously draw each view.

It's really pushing me to learn the software, which is good, as I previously mentioned that I'm learning the software in conjunction with learning to use computer-controlled cutting machines and construct actual objects.

I also Very much approve of the Lending Library section I love the planter idea along with the lightning.

I've used several libraries that incorporated plants into a central reading area, including my current county's main library which has trees near 7 meters tall in the central area, under a sky light. It's a nice environment for both reading and studying even for those of us with the option to go outside. It's particularly enjoyable during dark, gloomy winter days when having some green growing things around can lift your spirits.

Of course those are things I envision all over in the Vault in any case

I'm all for making attractive public areas to encourage people to get out of their little rooms and cubbyholes.

I will say on the improved version, I think Broom might have gone a 'bit' overbored on the size of the vaulted ceiling. Don't know they need to be that big, but I totally dig the vaulted arches.

The height is 2.5 times the normal height of the layout. It's not that unusual a height for a central space of that nature - come to think of it, it's about the same height as the central atrium at my county library.

For the "gym" area I was thinking of doing something similar - a central area that can be used for games like basketball or volleyball or others, surrounded by a track for walking/running, then surrounded by a hydroponics set up (behind a sturdy screen of some sort). The gym would be two levels in height, vaulted ceiling, and the surrounding hydroponics set-ups can be on two levels surrounding the gym. Add in "daylight" and the area will have a feeling of being somewhat out in the open even though it isn't really. We couldn't have a lot of areas of that nature, but a few will help break up the monotony of the environment.

And the windows on all of the personal study areas is again a very nice touch.

Can't take credit for that one - several other people suggested it. I did think of the mirror to make the reading area look bigger. You don't want to overdo the mirror "trick" but they do help make spaces look larger and by reflecting lighting can improve the perceived illumination in the room.

Looking at that second version of the study hall with the wonderful vaulted ceiling, I was struck by the similarity to some places I've seen with balconies along the second floor (like historic government buildings), and places like my high school library and music rehearsal room.

Would it impose many constraints on construction to move those enclosed study rooms upward to a second floor? There can then be a balcony behind the support columns, allowing for the feeling of even more space. The current location of the study rooms can then be left completely open (but with columns for support, if needed), with large desks or tables that can seat many people and power bars to plug in laptops and lamps. The second floor rooms can then be used for more out-of-the-way storage, if needed, too. It does necessitate turning one or both of the ground-floor corner study rooms into stairwells, however.


And as another idea for reconfigurable space: what about the use of folding screens?

Looking at the image Shep posted and other pictures of salt mines it looks like the caves are high enough to fit multi story buildings in there.
I have no idea what type of airplane that is but even the smaller planes of WWII were between 3 and 4 meters high which is quite conveniently also the height you need for one floor. The image looks like you could stack at least 4 of these planes on top of each other.

So even if you subtract the increased space requirements for vertical infra structure you´d still get a crap ton of extra space.

It looks like this is interesting more on the urban planning side than on the architectural side.

Psawhn wrote:Would it impose many constraints on construction to move those enclosed study rooms upward to a second floor? There can then be a balcony behind the support columns, allowing for the feeling of even more space. The current location of the study rooms can then be left completely open (but with columns for support, if needed), with large desks or tables that can seat many people and power bars to plug in laptops and lamps. The second floor rooms can then be used for more out-of-the-way storage, if needed, too. It does necessitate turning one or both of the ground-floor corner study rooms into stairwells, however.

That's an interesting idea - let me see what I can do. Not sure how soon I'll have another entry, given that I do anticipate a somewhat busy week.

Gentlemen! BEHOLD I bring you, MESSHALL!


Based off a google search image for a messhall at a summercamp of all things, I adjusted the original design to be better suited for our needs. The layout can easily accommodate over a hundred people at a time which, eating in shifts, should easily accommodate our needs. One of these may even be enough for the whole Vault, but two is better for redundancy.
Layout is pretty straight forward. I put the fridge to be carved back into the wall itself so it is easier to cool. Also for a room that will be taking in so many people, I naturally increased the size of the bathrooms as well as adding one for disabled people.

Good design, but where is all the cookware, dishes, and silverware stored?

Crossroads, while you're developing floorplans, could you consider laying out two more large areas?

1) An gym area - I'm thinking something the size of a regulation basketball court, with a running track following the outside perimeter, shower rooms/bathroom area, lockers for equipment, and whatever else I may have forgotten. We'll want to make it as compact as possible, except this will be another double-height area, like the meeting room/study area/library.

(I'm thinking of wrapping the hydroponics around it, but I'm assuming you aren't familiar with such a set up whereas I have actually done hydroponics so I'll work around your floorplan.

2) Swimming area - that would have some sort of lap pool (could be a long, narrow rectangle), a wading pool area for children (we'll have a few kids in the Bunker, after all), a square pool for more general swimming/water exercising (does not have to be as long as the lap pool), and some small whirlpool/hottub areas that can be closed off for privacy (useful for soaking sore and tired people as well as private parties - we need someplace folks can go for a little romance and/or sex after all). This woulod also be a public bath area, as suggested - not sure if we want some showers and tubs as well or if people had something else in mind. Bathrooms and lockers, too? Or do we put this adjacent to the gym so the same lockers/dressing/shower areas can be used by both?

PeZook wrote:I used submarine bunks as an extreme example, but remember we're not staying there for six months while on a ballistic patrol, we're gonna have to live there for DECADES.

People, lets have a fucking reality check. If there is a disaster great enough to require us to live in the Vaults 22 hours of the day for 28 days each month for the next 10+ years; then we're pretty much fucked as that's by definition a catastrophic scale event ala Yellowstone Caldera/Asteroid Impact.

MKSheppard wrote:

PeZook wrote:I used submarine bunks as an extreme example, but remember we're not staying there for six months while on a ballistic patrol, we're gonna have to live there for DECADES.

People, lets have a fucking reality check. If there is a disaster great enough to require us to live in the Vaults 22 hours of the day for 28 days each month for the next 10+ years; then we're pretty much fucked as that's by definition a catastrophic scale event ala Yellowstone Caldera/Asteroid Impact.

Not necessarily. Q didn't specify the Catastrophe - it could be something like a Fast Zombie Apocalypse or Evil Surface-Dwelling, Human-Only-Eating Monster Infestation that disappears by ten years time.

That's fantastic work on those Pods, Broomstick. I figure that if we have enough space, we might be able to fit a high-density dorm as "temporary quarters" in case someone really has a major issue with their room-mate/pod-mates, and has to stay somewhere else until we figure out a switch.

Broomstick wrote:Crossroads, while you're developing floorplans, could you consider laying out two more large areas?

I'd been thinking about both of those and have a few sketches done, I won't be able to finish anything till much later tonight when I'm back home right now.

Broomstick wrote: 1) An gym area - I'm thinking something the size of a regulation basketball court, with a running track following the outside perimeter, shower rooms/bathroom area, lockers for equipment, and whatever else I may have forgotten. We'll want to make it as compact as possible, except this will be another double-height area, like the meeting room/study area/library.

(I'm thinking of wrapping the hydroponics around it, but I'm assuming you aren't familiar with such a set up whereas I have actually done hydroponics so I'll work around your floorplan.

If you are thinking of making it double height, perhaps we could just go for a 'two story' gym. As for the gym itself, well, someone needs to do some studies on what sort of exercise we would need most for the time period. Ideally we would get a good deal of those "All in one" exercise machines to save space, so we aren't getting a bunch of individual machines for different workouts.

Not sure why we want the hydroponics near by, consider a gym will be full of sweat, germs, dead skin cells, etc, would assume we want food production far away.

Broomstick wrote:2) Swimming area - that would have some sort of lap pool (could be a long, narrow rectangle), a wading pool area for children (we'll have a few kids in the Bunker, after all), a square pool for more general swimming/water exercising (does not have to be as long as the lap pool), and some small whirlpool/hottub areas that can be closed off for privacy (useful for soaking sore and tired people as well as private parties - we need someplace folks can go for a little romance and/or sex after all). This woulod also be a public bath area, as suggested - not sure if we want some showers and tubs as well or if people had something else in mind. Bathrooms and lockers, too? Or do we put this adjacent to the gym so the same lockers/dressing/shower areas can be used by both?

This is something I'd given some thought to already. I actually have two layouts, a large-scale one, depending on just how much water we have, and a more economically scaled back room. My larger sketch has a "genera" pool, for both kids and adults, a "lap pool" which is one of those 'treadmill" pools and two spas, one public and one in a private area for couples or groups upon request.

One thing about a pool, and we may want to ask some of the boards engineers about this, but I feel a pool area may be one of the more maintenance heavy parts of the whole Vault. I mean, you will have water pumps, water filters, lots of pipes, water heaters, water storage. And all of it has to last 10 years, how long would it keep going before it goes "grungy" and we start getting things growing in the pipes?

Man it is a shame Mike isn't around any more, he was really good about things like this. Who are some of the more engineer minded members?

Crossroads Inc. wrote:

Broomstick wrote:Crossroads, while you're developing floorplans, could you consider laying out two more large areas?

I'd been thinking about both of those and have a few sketches done, I won't be able to finish anything till much later tonight when I'm back home right now.

Don't worry about it - I don't think anyone is in a screaming hurry and we all have things to do besides this. My output will be notably less this week due to other commitments.

Broomstick wrote:1) An gym area - I'm thinking something the size of a regulation basketball court, with a running track following the outside perimeter, shower rooms/bathroom area, lockers for equipment, and whatever else I may have forgotten. We'll want to make it as compact as possible, except this will be another double-height area, like the meeting room/study area/library.

(I'm thinking of wrapping the hydroponics around it, but I'm assuming you aren't familiar with such a set up whereas I have actually done hydroponics so I'll work around your floorplan.

If you are thinking of making it double height, perhaps we could just go for a 'two story' gym.

I want the extra height so if people want to play something like volleyball or basketball there's sufficient vertical clearance. It might also allow some gear to be stored near the ceiling, raised and lowered on pulleys and ropes as needed.

As for the gym itself, well, someone needs to do some studies on what sort of exercise we would need most for the time period. Ideally we would get a good deal of those "All in one" exercise machines to save space, so we aren't getting a bunch of individual machines for different workouts.

Have a bunch of multi-purpose workout machines that can be raised and lowered as noted, you have the big open space for some team sports type of things. We can also have a stock of pads for the floor for things like martial arts practice, maybe some wrestling, and the space could be cleared for calisthenics or dance type stuff. The track around the open court area would allow some walking/running type exercise. The only thing lacking from that would be a weight room, but those don't have to take up a lot of space (though you don't want something that heavy stored on the ceiling!)

Basically, it's a big open area allowing for a lot of different types of physical activity.

We might also consider supervised forms of sparring - it can be a healthy and effective outlet for frustration and aggression as well as exercise.

And, of course, it can also serve as another large meeting space with the addition of tables and chairs.

Not sure why we want the hydroponics near by, consider a gym will be full of sweat, germs, dead skin cells, etc, would assume we want food production far away.

Because exercising under "daylight" and around greenery is psychologically healthy for people. You can put a transparent wall between the people and the plants (remember, I suggested a barrier of some sort just to protect the plants) so the space appears more open, with the light and the greenery as a backdrop, but still providing adequate separation.

Broomstick wrote:2) Swimming area - that would have some sort of lap pool (could be a long, narrow rectangle), a wading pool area for children (we'll have a few kids in the Bunker, after all), a square pool for more general swimming/water exercising (does not have to be as long as the lap pool), and some small whirlpool/hottub areas that can be closed off for privacy (useful for soaking sore and tired people as well as private parties - we need someplace folks can go for a little romance and/or sex after all). This woulod also be a public bath area, as suggested - not sure if we want some showers and tubs as well or if people had something else in mind. Bathrooms and lockers, too? Or do we put this adjacent to the gym so the same lockers/dressing/shower areas can be used by both?

This is something I'd given some thought to already. I actually have two layouts, a large-scale one, depending on just how much water we have, and a more economically scaled back room. My larger sketch has a "genera" pool, for both kids and adults, a "lap pool" which is one of those 'treadmill" pools and two spas, one public and one in a private area for couples or groups upon request.

One thing about a pool, and we may want to ask some of the boards engineers about this, but I feel a pool area may be one of the more maintenance heavy parts of the whole Vault. I mean, you will have water pumps, water filters, lots of pipes, water heaters, water storage. And all of it has to last 10 years, how long would it keep going before it goes "grungy" and we start getting things growing in the pipes?

Pools do require chemicals. Another thing that can be done - albeit with some minor inconvenience - is to completely drain the whole system for a pool periodically and let it dry out - a lot of what lives in water dies in dry air. Even so, we'll probably need some sanitizing.

Keep in mind that a small spa/tub can simply be drained between uses (and probably should be). It's the larger pools with multiple people using them that need chemical treatment.

This also brings to mind how we handle wastewater and where we get our clean water. If we have huge amounts of power we could distill wastewater to yield pure water. If we have a huge and reliable supply of fresh water we can do as the Romans did and simply flush enormous volumes through the system on a constant basis. If we have limited water, limited power, or both the equation changes.

Redone study area/library/meeting room - I've lifted the meeting rooms to a second floor arrangement, with one of them replaced by an elevator and stairway (which can now be used as a standard vertical movement unit). "Railings" around the large central area are small hydroponics units growing a variety of lettuce, herbs, and edible greens with the necessary pumps, reservoirs, and mechanics concealed in the base of the "planters" (yes, this will work - it's basically a prettied-up version of what I use.)


Close of stairway and elevator unit - not fully detailed, but you get the idea.


The first level of this area will be, as suggested, a gathering area with a coffee shop type "concession" and perhaps some other "shops" arrayed around it. Sketch to come soon.

Outstanding, Broomie. Its really a 'town square' at this point.

a gathering area with a coffee shop type "concession" and perhaps some other "shops" arrayed around it.

Yeah, if we're gonna be stuck in that bunker, I want at least two Starbucks, that way I can say 'Nah, I don't want to go to that one, they don't make my drinks quite right and I don't like the staff there, let's go to the good one.'

I have the "coffee shop" planned out, but I'm at a loss for what other "shops" might be desirable around this "town square". Any ideas?

Maybe one or several should be the "shops" where you pick up toiletries and personal supplies as needed? Rather than having individuals go to the Big Warehouse area every time they need something there can be a stock of stuff around the "town square" that is supplied at long intervals (every 2-3 months, perhaps).

A "flea market" area where people can barter items?

Something else?

Agent Fisher wrote:

a gathering area with a coffee shop type "concession" and perhaps some other "shops" arrayed around it.

Yeah, if we're gonna be stuck in that bunker, I want at least two Starbucks, that way I can say 'Nah, I don't want to go to that one, they don't make my drinks quite right and I don't like the staff there, let's go to the good one.'

You'd have as many of these as you have "town squares" in the Bunker. Although maybe you might want to make one a bar. (Brewing beer and making wine isn't that difficult)