Red Letter Media RotS Review Up

[Vympel]

All of these are clearly stated in TPM, AOTC -or they're the logical conclusion anyone who is NOT a complete fucktard would reach if they had watched the films.

Yeah, RLM's "whhhhhyyyy" questions are for the most part fucking stupid. Seriously, even a child watching these movies was able to infer what the hell the answers to these questions were. Its really not difficult.

[Nephtys]

All of these are clearly stated in TPM, AOTC -or they're the logical conclusion anyone who is NOT a complete fucktard would reach if they had watched the films.

Yeah, RLM's "whhhhhyyyy" questions are for the most part fucking stupid. Seriously, even a child watching these movies was able to infer what the hell the answers to these questions were. Its really not difficult.

Except a lot of them do make sense though. Why did Qui-Gon and Obiwan take different ships? Why did the droid army land on the other side of the planet, thus requiring a trip through the 'planet core' (whatever the hell that is). How did Qui-Gon know the name of the poison gas being used to kill them? How did Padme know about a 'hangar' the jedi were going to when nobody told her about one? What happens if Anakin spared Dooku after Palpatine betrays him? etc.

[Freefall]

Something I've actually wondered about is why Watto apparently made no attempts to confirm ownership (or even existence) of the ship and pod Qui Gonn used to enter the race and as collateral. And you'd think the Jedi would have rules against gambling with other people's property in the first place. And while I'm sure Watto doesn't particularly care if Qui Gonn is a thief or not, you'd think he would at least be concerned about acquiring a ship that might actually belong to some other fairly nasty characters who might come looking for it.

[Galvatron]

All of these are clearly stated in TPM, AOTC -or they're the logical conclusion anyone who is NOT a complete fucktard would reach if they had watched the films.

Yeah, RLM's "whhhhhyyyy" questions are for the most part fucking stupid. Seriously, even a child watching these movies was able to infer what the hell the answers to these questions were. Its really not difficult.

But weren't you the original RLM fan?

What changed?

[Kane Starkiller]

Because he's powerful and they're cowardly.

Powerful? With the Force or politically? More powerful than a fleet of huge warships and droid armies? So powerful he can cow a large interstellar organization to do whatever he wants? The entire geopolitical/economic entity was cowed? And this was shown in the movie? Where?

They weren't getting what they wanted from the Republic (the reason they attacked Naboo), Gunray was put on trial for attacking Naboo, and because they bought Dooku's bullshit.

What did they want? Gunray, a one man, can now dictate secession because he personally was inconvenienced? Just what is Trade Federation composed of? Nute Gunray and his droids?
They bought Dookus bullshit? What bullshit? He is already somehow at the center of the separatists and a leader by ROTS. How? Why? And then when he's dead Griveous is ordering the separatists around and making threats. How?

You're the leader of a huge corporation with political clout, your own army and navy and two Sith lords on your side...

And you get your ass kicked by a couple of adolescent girls, one of whom (Amidala) takes you prisoner and humiliates you with your own scheme: a treaty signed at gunpoint. You end up on trial for what you pulled, too.

You wouldn't hold a seething grudge and want her dead, too?

Not to the point of deciding whether I should secede from the Republic based on that single fact. How the hell does he have the power to make such whimsical decisions in the name of the Trade Federation in the first place?
BTW I thought he was "cowardly"? But now he was making demands in the face of a Sith Lord? So now he's not cowardly?

See #1.

Uhuh they're "cowardly" and he is "powerful". I think you'll have to do a little bit better.

All of these are clearly stated in TPM, AOTC -or they're the logical conclusion anyone who is NOT a complete fucktard would reach if they had watched the films.

You're full of shit. There is no logical way for anyone to conclude why Trade Federation is obeying Sidious right from the start otherwise you would point to a certain scene and not simply state he is "powerful" (meaning what exactly) and they (who is they the entire Trade Federation?) are "cowardly".
Nor has anyone even attempted to explain what exactly Trade Federation or Banking Clans are and how they are able to secede. What do they want? What made them want to secede? How can a bunch of banks secede?

[adam_grif]

Something something shroud of the dark side.

This thread is getting awfully of topic, time for a split maybe?

[Kane Starkiller]

Getting back on topic I loved the beetlejuice song when he describes the idiocy of Anakin just agreeing to go on a galactic killing spree after he pledged his allegiance to Palpatine.
OK so he decided, in the heat of the moment, to save Palpatine at the expense of Mace Windu. And now he's totally open to exterminating Jedi down to the last child?

[Vympel]

All of these are clearly stated in TPM, AOTC -or they're the logical conclusion anyone who is NOT a complete fucktard would reach if they had watched the films.

Yeah, RLM's "whhhhhyyyy" questions are for the most part fucking stupid. Seriously, even a child watching these movies was able to infer what the hell the answers to these questions were. Its really not difficult.

But weren't you the original RLM fan?

What changed?

Nothing changed. I've always thought TPM was seriously flawed and just not very good - just because I think RLM tends to beat a dead horse and grossly exaggerate how confusing that film is especially (its really not) doesn't mean I hate the guy. Although as I said earlier, I think his schtick has gotten a bit old.

[Thanas]

To be honest, I think his version of the clone wars would have been superior to Lucas' ones.

[Purple]

Anakin recognizes Qui Gon as a Jedi merely by seeing his "laser sword" so the Jedi are pretty well known. When has anyone but a Jedi talked about the Sith? You're making things up and assuming stuff about a lot of things here. And I don't want to go to the EU for explanations.

My point exactly. (emphasis mine) Tell me, how much education do you think the ordinary citizen of the galaxy has on the intricate details of the force?

I mean, the only thing that sets out the Jedi from the Sith is that they fallow a different ideology. And looking at the events in ANH when Tarkin talks to Veder about the Jedi being a religion I would go so far to say that they can simply be described as different sects of the same cult.

And this is most likely how people see them. That would also explain why no one mentions the Sith even when Darth Maul does that whole thing with attacking them.


The problem with people on this board is that they assign to this sort of atitude:

It's unreasonable that I'm expected to go home and speculate about why very important plot points happened.

They expect something like a bond vilain exposure where Palpatine sits down and explains everything to the viever in great detail. Or they expect the movie to tell them everything so that they don't have to stress a single brain cell.

And when the movie fails to deliver on that and instead asks them to think based on things shown like:
"Hey, the Trade Federation is a huge and rich Trade Federation. (what a shock)"
"They have (by virtue of us seeing them whisper to a senator and being told about it) influence in the Senate through bribery."

I mean, the whole movie actually tells us enough to conclude that they are the equivalent of a mega corporation bribing their way into the senate. What more do you need?

But instead, people want everything to be served to them on a plate. Personally, I think having to think does not detract from a movie but makes it better. And a movie that can keep you thinking about the plot points even after leaving the theater is a good one. After all, if the movie sucks, you won't feel the need to think about the plot points at all.

[Kane Starkiller]

There you go again pretending that we can deduce all the various plot points if we just think harder when you yourself failed to provide the motivation for Trade Federation ranging from fear to bribes.
"I think that Trade Federation obeyed Sidious because of money. How can I prove that? Can't. Dammit!"

[Purple]

There you go again pretending that we can deduce all the various plot points if we just think harder when you yourself failed to provide the motivation for Trade Federation ranging from fear to bribes.

"I think that Trade Federation obeyed Sidious because of money. How can I prove that? Can't. Dammit!"

Alright, here is a nice little thesis for you.

First to establish my points:

Point 1:
The trade federation was controlled by Gunray. This is established in episode 1. Why is it controlled by Gunray? Who freaking cares?
That is how it is established. The same as why X wings have 4 wings rather than say 6 or 24 of them. Or why no one uses guided missiles but dog fights at the distance of 1000m in space. (nothing in the movies establishes this)

For all we know it is his company and he is the chairman. Or judging by his title it is more likely that he is the company King with full control over it by birth right. He is a Viceroy after all.

All we know is that we are told he is their leader.

Point 2:
Episode 1 clearly establishes that Gunray is scared of Sidious and Maul. We see it when he reacts to the news of Darth Maul being sent over to hunt Amidala. And considering the fact that he fully knows they are Sith Lords and that one has a cloaked ship and is a master asasin you would think he has good reason to be scared.

We also know from the movies that he is in essence a supreme coward. Even Jar Jar showed more bravery than he ever did.

Conclusion:
We have an organization led by one man who is in correspondence with a Sith Lord that can kill him at his whim and that he is clearly afraid of. Hence out of what is obviously justified fear the man obeys the Sith Lord. And because the man controls the organization it organization obeys the Sith Lord as well.

Good enough for you?

[Thanas]

Ghetto edit: and the list of things that were better than confront Palpatine directly was great as well, ditto to the list of people who were stupid.

All in all, I cannot really fault this review. Taking only the movies in account, it was pretty good.


But the reviewer should get a new voice. This one is grating.

[StarshipTitanic]

Something I've actually wondered about is why Watto apparently made no attempts to confirm ownership (or even existence) of the ship and pod Qui Gonn used to enter the race and as collateral. And you'd think the Jedi would have rules against gambling with other people's property in the first place. And while I'm sure Watto doesn't particularly care if Qui Gonn is a thief or not, you'd think he would at least be concerned about acquiring a ship that might actually belong to some other fairly nasty characters who might come looking for it.

Watto not confirming that the ship existed and was in Qui Gon's possession is a fantastic point. Even Han got a down payment on the Alderaan trip before taking off. I guess I never caught that because I was so baffled at how Qui Gon didn't steal the hyperdrive part but was willing to lie and cheat his way through a bet to acquire it plus Anakin but not Shmi.

Getting back on topic I loved the beetlejuice song when he describes the idiocy of Anakin just agreeing to go on a galactic killing spree after he pledged his allegiance to Palpatine.
OK so he decided, in the heat of the moment, to save Palpatine at the expense of Mace Windu. And now he's totally open to exterminating Jedi down to the last child?

To be fair, he did already have mass murder practice!

Anakin recognizes Qui Gon as a Jedi merely by seeing his "laser sword" so the Jedi are pretty well known. When has anyone but a Jedi talked about the Sith? You're making things up and assuming stuff about a lot of things here. And I don't want to go to the EU for explanations.

My point exactly. (emphasis mine) Tell me, how much education do you think the ordinary citizen of the galaxy has on the intricate details of the force?

I mean, the only thing that sets out the Jedi from the Sith is that they fallow a different ideology. And looking at the events in ANH when Tarkin talks to Veder about the Jedi being a religion I would go so far to say that they can simply be described as different sects of the same cult.

And this is most likely how people see them. That would also explain why no one mentions the Sith even when Darth Maul does that whole thing with attacking them.

I was wrong. Everyone should know the difference between the Jedi and Sith since Palpatine says something like "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy." So the whole galaxy should have some knowledge of the difference between when the Sith run things and when the Jedi are around.

The problem with people on this board is that they assign to this sort of atitude:

It's unreasonable that I'm expected to go home and speculate about why very important plot points happened.

They expect something like a bond vilain exposure where Palpatine sits down and explains everything to the viever in great detail. Or they expect the movie to tell them everything so that they don't have to stress a single brain cell.

And when the movie fails to deliver on that and instead asks them to think based on things shown like:
"Hey, the Trade Federation is a huge and rich Trade Federation. (what a shock)"
"They have (by virtue of us seeing them whisper to a senator and being told about it) influence in the Senate through bribery."

I mean, the whole movie actually tells us enough to conclude that they are the equivalent of a mega corporation bribing their way into the senate. What more do you need?

But instead, people want everything to be served to them on a plate. Personally, I think having to think does not detract from a movie but makes it better. And a movie that can keep you thinking about the plot points even after leaving the theater is a good one. After all, if the movie sucks, you won't feel the need to think about the plot points at all.

Because never in the history of ever has a company bribed its way into being openly represented in government which, by the way, is still your pet assumption and is equally as valid as any other assumption.

Star Wars isn't 2001. Star Wars in a space opera, a legend. The context in which events happen shouldn't be open to wild interpretation like some postmodern experience. In A New Hope, we are shown quite clearly that the Empire is evil. First, Vader chokes a prisoner to death. Then they land on Tatooine and murder some traders. Then they murder Luke's uncle and aunt. Then they blow up a planet as a part of an interrogation of one prisoner. Evil. Then we have the characters struggle and establish themselves.

[adam_grif]

To be fair, he did already have mass murder practice!

No, he had genocide practice, although the skills are transferable.

[TC Pilot]

I got about 20 minutes into the review before I gave up. Not being particularly familiar with his style, I have to say that the reviewer's voice is really annoying. It's just unpleasant to listen to.

Overall, I think he made a few valid points, such as the "backtracking" bit and the problems with the opening sequence. I also liked what he had to say about the Emperor.

On the other hand, he appears to be spending most of his time trolling for things to complain about. He whines, for instance, about not knowing who General Greivous is (despite the movie telling us in the opening crawl) or what ships belong to which side (despite there clearly being Trade Federation ships), yet complains about how the observation deck is a poorly-placed "thematic bridge" to the throne room in ROTJ. I found his complaint about CGI to be laughably weak, especially since he outright mentions Toy Story. What, suddenly all animated movies are inherently inferior to regular movies? He also asks a bunch of questions about the opening scene, at least one of which is so stupid and could be answered in about 1 second.

"Was killing Dooku part of the plan? If so, did he have any say in the plan?" Aside from how utterly stupid one has to be to wonder if the person getting killed knew that was part of the plan, just fucking watch the movie. Seriously, Christopher Lee is a good enough actor that you can fucking tell he's surprised when Palpatine tells Anakin to kill him. He even shows the damn clip. And jeez, at least make an effort to pronounce the names correctly. "Greivance"? "Doughcoo"? "Padamay"?

His "jokes" are also incredibly forced (particularly the one where he just lists off a dozen swear words before eventually getting to the "four-letter word" he really meant). Though I did like how he reworked "Sith" into "Tshi," apparently some Chinese word for bad meat. Still, the reviews padded out to all hell. At least half of the review I actually did watch was nothing but insubstantial filler of him just repeating that he thinks the Prequels are bad. Funny how he complains about ROTS having a lot of pointless filler.

[adam_grif]

His terrible voice, deliberately awful mispronunciation and acting that he gets confused at everything are part of the act. He has a completely normal voice that he uses at certain points in the reviews, is perfectly fluent in English and is an amateur film maker. The review style is quite polarizing and you obviously aren't one of the people who enjoys it.

On an amusing note, Roger Ebert apparently is.

[Junghalli]

And jeez, at least make an effort to pronounce the names correctly. "Greivance"?

I think that was him mocking the blatantly cartoon villain evil sounding name.

[Purple]

I was wrong. Everyone should know the difference between the Jedi and Sith since Palpatine says something like "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy." So the whole galaxy should have some knowledge of the difference between when the Sith run things and when the Jedi are around.

Is anywhere implied that the time before was any time soon. I mean, once again might mean that it happened centuries ago. And here on earth we have people who idolize dictators like Hitler and Stalin even before the corpses were cold (to give you an impression of how fast memory fades).

We clearly find out from the movies when Palpatine mentions his master and from the general state of prosperity of the republic that the current system was running like this for a long, long time.

Because never in the history of ever has a company bribed its way into being openly represented in government which, by the way, is still your pet assumption and is equally as valid as any other assumption.

Well, we have scenes where Palpatine essentially tells us that this is what happened. When he talks about the TF holding senators in their pocket.

He might be lying, but I doubt he just made it up from scratch.

Star Wars isn't 2001. Star Wars in a space opera, a legend. The context in which events happen shouldn't be open to wild interpretation like some postmodern experience. In A New Hope, we are shown quite clearly that the Empire is evil. First, Vader chokes a prisoner to death. Then they land on Tatooine and murder some traders. Then they murder Luke's uncle and aunt. Then they blow up a planet as a part of an interrogation of one prisoner. Evil. Then we have the characters struggle and establish themselves.

So are you saying that ANH and the original trylogy are beyond criticism and this isent? Or did I misunderstand?

[StarshipTitanic]

or what ships belong to which side (despite there clearly being Trade Federation ships)

I only got that the star destroyer looking ships ships were good and the previously-seen doughnuts were bad. I didn't know that the smaller ships were all Separatists until I was told about it online. That was probably his point.

I found his complaint about CGI to be laughably weak, especially since he outright mentions Toy Story. What, suddenly all animated movies are inherently inferior to regular movies?

Which complaint?

He whines, for instance, about not knowing who General Greivous is (despite the movie telling us in the opening crawl)

I've complained about this same thing. He comes out of nowhere the opening crawl wheeee, does nothing significant, and gets killed in a boring ass long lame fight, all without us ever getting to know him.

Fuck, Biggs got more development than this guy.

Yeah, this. The prequels have a bad habit of telling us who characters are supposed to be rather than having us learn from their actions. What made Grievous "fiendish"? Who knows? I have trouble trusting the opening crawl because they habitually lie to the audience:

While the congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events,
the Supreme Chancellor has secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights, the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, to settle the conflict.

Obi Wan wasn't a Jedi Knight.

In a stunning move, the fiendish droid leader, General Grievous, has swept into the Republic capital and kidnapped Chancellor Palpatine, leader of the Galactic Senate.

Grievous wasn't a droid.

[Srelex]

In a stunning move, the fiendish droid leader, General Grievous, has swept into the Republic capital and kidnapped Chancellor Palpatine, leader of the Galactic Senate.

Grievous wasn't a droid.

If you want to get into semantics, he was indeed a leader of droids, so from one grammatical perspective...

[TC Pilot]

I've complained about this same thing. He comes out of nowhere the opening crawl wheeee, does nothing significant, and gets killed in a boring ass long lame fight, all without us ever getting to know him.

Fuck, Biggs got more development than this guy.

See, but what you're saying is actually a valid point.

He's not saying that we're never told Greivous backstory or motivation, etc. He acts like we're given nothing to establish who he is, and we just have to "assume" (his words) Greivous is important "because he's a General".

I only got that the star destroyer looking ships ships were good and the previously-seen doughnuts were bad. I didn't know that the smaller ships were all Separatists until I was told about it online. That was probably his point.

Possibly, but my own point is that he's feigning ignorance on a lot of things (which in and of itself is hard to believe, considering the length of this review), yet in many places he's referring back to the other movies. He's apparently aware enough to comment on parallels with ROTJ, but can't be arsed to read the opening crawl.

Which complaint?

The part where he says how the opening scene isn't impressive because it's just some CGI made by a guy at his computer, and that stuff with models and camerawork would have actually been impressive. Looking at it again, I probably misconstrued the point he was trying to make by referring to how whole movies are made in CGI now, given how he jumps from "Models and clever camerawork" (with clips from the OT) straight to "Movies are made entirely in CGI these days," and that he bashes on these computer animators and suggests working in a toll booth is more fufilling work, so hopefully you can understand why I was misled.

[StarshipTitanic]

Is anywhere implied that the time before was any time soon. I mean, once again might mean that it happened centuries ago. And here on earth we have people who idolize dictators like Hitler and Stalin even before the corpses were cold (to give you an impression of how fast memory fades).

We clearly find out from the movies when Palpatine mentions his master and from the general state of prosperity of the republic that the current system was running like this for a long, long time.

Are you implying that some people in the galaxy might welcome the return of Sith rule? Or that a spacefaring civilization has a more incomplete historical record than our own? How many times do I have to say that I'm not playing the wild assumption game with you?

Well, we have scenes where Palpatine essentially tells us that this is what happened. When he talks about the TF holding senators in their pocket.

He might be lying, but I doubt he just made it up from scratch.

"Essentially" tells us? Palpatine "might" be lying?!

So are you saying that ANH and the original trylogy are beyond criticism and this isent?

No.

Possibly, but my own point is that he's feigning ignorance on a lot of things (which in and of itself is hard to believe, considering the length of this review), yet in many places he's referring back to the other movies. He's apparently aware enough to comment on parallels with ROTJ, but can't be arsed to read the opening crawl.

It was a weaker point. He may have meant we didn't know Grievous beyond what we're told or he could have forgotten the opening crawl. His review doesn't hinge on the issue so I'm not going to quibble about it.

The part where he says how the opening scene isn't impressive because it's just some CGI made by a guy at his computer, and that stuff with models and camerawork would have actually been impressive. Looking at it again, I probably misconstrued the point he was trying to make by referring to how whole movies are made in CGI now, given how he jumps from "Models and clever camerawork" (with clips from the OT) straight to "Movies are made entirely in CGI these days," and that he bashes on these computer animators and suggests working in a toll booth is more fufilling work, so hopefully you can understand why I was misled.

It's not that it was just a big CGI sequence but that it was supposed to be impressive by having no cuts when that's really a trivial feat. It's like expecting someone to be impressed that movies are filmed in color now. In a previous review, he had an old clip of Lucas talking about how movies should use special effects to further the story and not vice versa. A big CGI sequence with no cuts is just indulgent nowadays and does little to tell a story.

[Purple]

Are you implying that some people in the galaxy might welcome the return of Sith rule? Or that a spacefaring civilization has a more incomplete historical record than our own? How many times do I have to say that I'm not playing the wild assumption game with you?

For the 1st bit, yes. There are people that would. But that is besides the point.

My point is that if it happened say 10K years ago or 1K years ago events would have faded out of public memory and became little more than stories. After all, as you said it your self they have a huge space faring civilization with millions of worlds and have a lot more history to track than we do. I can imagine that even things that happen some 500 years ago would be little more than a foot note in some history book.

But that is all besides the point since without the EU we can't know how long it is since the last Sith ruled the galaxy.

"Essentially" tells us? Palpatine "might" be lying?!

Well, the guy does say it strait up. And why would he lie?
I mean, the point of Episode 1 was that the whole thing was a stunt to make the Republic lax on their taxes for crying out loud. You would think that if a corporation can capture planets to further tax evasion they can buy off a few people.

I mean, give me one bit of evidence that he was lying and that the Republic was not in fact a corrupt bureaucratic mess.


And for your complain about the Jedi Knight text. Have you stopped to consider that it might mean "Member of the order of Jedi Knights" rather than "Member of the Order of Jedi Knights who has also achieved the rank of Knight".

[Jim Raynor]

Yeah, we really need to grasp at straws from the Expanded Universe books to refute this guy. Someone who argues that the Trade Federation should've openly screwed themselves over just to help Palpatine, for no reward. When someone fails to grasp a movie's plot at such a basic level, you don't treat him as anything other than an idiot.

That's not what the review states. What he complains is that there is never any explanation given for:
1) Why Trade Federation leadership outright obeys Sidious

Which review are you talking about? Because in TPM, the one which I have gone through, he argues exactly that. He pretends to be Palpatine, and supposedly improves the story by ordering the Trade Federation to completely admit their hostile intentions and send Qui-Gon back to Coruscant to report them. It's idiotic.

2) Why Trade Federation decided to secede from the Republic

Already being pissed off enough to fight over taxes, having the Senator from the planet you invaded elected Chancellor, having your trade franchise threatened and your leaders put through the courts, doesn't tell you why? All of this is in the movies.

3) Why is Nute Gunray obsessed with killing Amidala to the point he'll refuse to join the separatists unless she is dead

Are you for real? She successfully led an uprising against him and humiliated him. A teenage girl outwitted him and held him at gunpoint. People in real life have developed murderous obsessions over less than that.

4) Why the Separatist leadership allows itself to be cowed and ordered around by Griveus and Dooku

I went over this in one of the previous threads - he's GENERAL Grievous. I mean wow, a guy with an actual top military rank can tell people what to do. Especially when he's a superpowered cyborg who can kill you with his own hands. Same goes for Dooku, a man with Jedi powers and a lightsaber on his belt at all times. A man who was the political face of the Separatist movement, and responsible for drawing thousands of worlds to their cause in the first place.

Nevermind that the Separatists aren't even "cowed and ordered around." Dooku offered a deal that appealed to them. In ROTS, the Separatist leaders outright question Grievous's ability to lead - Grievous somewhat stands up for himself but does nothing in retaliation to them.

All of this stuff is easily inferred from the movies, and your criticisms are even at odds with what was shown onscreen.